Tubular bells vs. Mekanik destruktiw kommandoh

[Camelogue]

Who's Zoomin Who?

The influence of one on another, is the study of human nature.

[zravkapt]

Anyone know what Oldfield has to say about this?

[grego]

In the case of Zappa, I rather doubt it. He never listened to rock music (just 20th century composer & old blues stuff) and, when speaking about his musical tastes, he never mentioned any prog band.

This is not correct. Zappa obviously listened to a lot of rock music, even produced some of the rock groups( Alice Cooper, Grand Funk Railroad), and he mentioned Gentle Giant with great sympathy.

[Bytor]

FZ on Gentle Giant

[Kai]

And what about the Mike Oldfield-Pekka Pohjola relationship? (see Keesojen Lehto by the latter) Who influenced who???

Mike Oldfield offered to produce Keesojen lehto, played guitar on it and had strong influence on how the music sounded. However, Pohjola had already written the material and recorded some of it, when Oldfield rang him with his offer. So while Oldfield influenced the sound, it wasn't an equal collaboration, even if the Italian and U.S. editions give equal credit to both Sally and Mike Oldfield. Pohjola's further work doesn't show any marked influence from Oldfield, except perhaps by going more towards jazz rock-style band direction. He also later commented that the end result ”didn't feel like his own”. He did credit his later involvement with Oldfield's first tour as making him realise how the more complexly orchestrated music like his or Oldfield's could be played live successfully if one only arranged it right.

As for Oldfield, he had heard and liked Pohjola's Harakka Bialoipokku after Hergest Ridge, and in June 1975 Virgin tried to match Pohjola with Oldfield as a potential musical collaborator. Apparently Oldfield considered Pohjola a musical kindred spirit (Pohjola disagreed – he considered Oldfield an inspired amateur) and asked a lot about the making of Harakka Bialoipokku. I'm still hard-pressed to find any direct influence of Pohjola on Ommadawn or Incantations. Pohjola did state that producing Keesojen lehto taught Oldfield to like drum kits.

There actually may be a connection between the two men's music, and that is through Sibelius. Oldfield has credited Sibelius's 5th symphony as a major inspiration for him at the beginning of his music-making career and especially on how to construct Tubular Bells. Pohjola could not have been unaware of Sibelius's music, though he has only admitted direct influence of Sibelius on his 1st symphony. Then again, Jon Anderson is or at least was very much into Sibelius, so influence doesn't have to mean that the end results sound similar.

As for Tubular Bells, Oldfield had demoed the material by early 1972 and recorded most of the first side in the Autumn 1972, well before Chris & The Maggers descended on The Manor (though of course the Mekanïk material had already been performed and first recorded around the same time). However, from what I can gather from his autobiography, Oldfield had not finished all parts at the time, but did make changes and additions while gradually recording the album during the studio downtime.

Which, to me, does not prove that he ”stole” Vander's music, nor does the similarity between the TB theme and ”La Dawötsin”. As said, neither is an original idea. Possible influences, either intentional or unintentional, between the two pieces is possible, but direct plagiarism seems unlikely. Musicians, like people generally, don't necessarily always realise where their supposedly original ideas come from. They may pick up on things they come across, and after working on them, come to believe they invented them. And if you are hailed as a musical genius, you don't have many incentives to admit you just picked up your winner tune from some guy at the rehearsals, even if you realise this to be the case.

On the other hand, someone like Vander obviously values ”absolute originality” above all. It may be embarrassing from him to realise that he has spent months banging D notes on the piano and come up with something special – only to realise that someone else has dreamed up something a bit similar all by himself, that he is not necessarily the sole owner a virgin idea, the first in the field of one. So if his music doesn't live up to his expectations of originality, all he can do is try something different, though it's probably easier on the ego to claim that the other guy ”stole” the idea rather than admitting that it wasn't so unique to begin with. And if he did claim that he didn't know Orff when writing MDK, I'd say he would be a major case of picking up ideas and passing them off as his own without realising it.

[Kcrimso]

Then again, Jon Anderson is or at least was very much into Sibelius...

Still is. He even came to Finland recently to hear Sibelius concerts. It was a gift from her wife.

[JKL2000]

An assertion by B. Bruford says Magma was the one and only band practically everyone amongst the UK 'progressive' rock musician's environment were wholeheartedly fascinated by back then, and there are numerous other statements to back that up. Vander and Magma were simply perceived as the "genuine thing" - probably as much due to their overt idiosyncracy and artistic hubris as an overall understanding of musical components themselves. Oldfield worked closely as studio engineer with Henry Cow in their Unrest sessions at the Manor (with amazing results, I might add), an event that according to sources came about partly because the transcendent experience of Magma had convinced him of the radical possibilities inherent in "rock" music at this level of formal intricacy.

Although I don't hear much "plagiarism" in TB myself, you can EASILY detect the MDK influence in a work like Clearlight's Forever Blowing Bubbles, recorded a year and a half afterwards at the very same Manor.

I also recall someone claiming once that Zappa wrote the introductory part of "Big Swifty" (from Waka/Jawaka) at direct influence from Magma after appearing on the same bill as them on several European dates in 1970-71. I actually found it highly interesting to go back and listen to it anew after hearing this, although it isn't necessarily true at all.

Not that relevant, but Vander is the favorite drummer of Marillion's Ian Mosley.

[Dana5140]

And a fave band of Julian Cope and John Lytton and Michael Akerfeldt. Among many others.

[Kcrimso]

And a fave band of Julian Cope and John Lytton and Michael Akerfeldt. Among many others.

Isn't Camel Mikael Åkerfeldt's favorite band?

[calyx]

Another thing that doesn't add up in Vander's story is that part about him going to see "The Exorcist" and noticing Oldfield's "lift", then deciding to abandon the piece in question. Well, "The Exorcist" only came out in December 1973 in the US, and September 1974 in France. "MDK" was already released at this point, "Kohntarkosz" already being played although still in progress until the recording sessions in Spring 1974. The story, iirc, was that Vander decided he would start work on a completely different piece because he was so disgusted, but exactly which piece did he supposedly abandon, and which one was the result of his decision ? The chronology just doesn't seem to match. As for "La Dawotsin", was this part of a longer, abandoned work, or was it a part he had to excise from a longer work (if so, which one) so he wouldn't be accused of plagiarising Oldfield ?

[unclemeat]

He began working on Emëhntëtt-Rê in 1974.
cf Ascension n°6 : http://fr.calameo.com/books/000886196616f44af0512

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

"La" Dawotsin & TB have definitely a lot in common, not just a couple of notes, also the "spooky" vibe.

someone should do a 'mashup' of the 2 and post it

[Steve F.]

Original Sufferhead by Fela Kuti has some similarities to MDK. Did FK in Nigeria steal from CV too? (I've no idea of the timeline of Oiriginal Sufferhead)

You know, there are 12 notes in the Western scale. Not everything is theft. IMO. Methinks CV is full of crap on this one.

[Mr.Krautman]

No matter how talented Vander is, he never won any modesty prize and was well know for his many provocative and upsetting statements during interviews,mainly in the 1970ies. I remember he once declared that MAGMA was the only "real" rock band in Europe, thus... all this must be taken with a grain of salt and if some vague similiraties could be found between some parts of MDK and TB the two works are so radically different that any (deliberate) stealing by Oldfield seems highly unlikely. And the story of the unknow (!) abandoned piece by C.V really doesn't add to his credibility...

[Zeuhlmate]

Fela Kuti - Original Sufferhead (1981) - yes at about 4:30. A clean MDK Ripp off!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX250GbUTZY

There is no smoking gun Oldfield ripped Dawotsin, Its not even particularily inspired, but its a good story.
Did Vander ripp off Stravinsky Les Noces or was he just inspired ?

If we go to blues and other 'genres' everything is a ripp off, vague similarities is the rule.

[Gorillclub]

it seems that everything in dorian mode is copyrighted by vander !

[Kai]

it seems that everything in dorian mode is copyrighted by vander !

Yes, he had to abandon his wonderful suite of Kobaïan drinking songs, Rät-Aërzëd, when he found out that "What Shall We Do with a Drunken Sailor" totally ripped off his music.

[Dana5140]

For what it is worth, here is the quote from him from the article I published in Option back in 1988:

""These pieces got developed slowly," recall Vander. "Before starting to play Mekanïk with the group, I was working on it for one year and a half, on my own. It's while playing it with the group that I found the definitive shape. After I did the first Magma double album, made of songs composed in 1969, I immediately started to get in more obsessional music, without knowing if I was going into something. I stayed on the piano for almost two months, playing on a D on the bottom of the keyboard, then I add, re-recording on our old Revox, a few other D's, medium and sharp.

"I was looking for an 'OM' unconsciously, and it was only after two months that a first chord appeared, resounding in the D ; the a few chords that made a melody. It became, at this moment, the central melody of Mekanïk. It is actually in the middle of Mekanïk. Then I had to compose the beginning and the end. It was really original, I never heard this kind of music before. I intended to stay for years on that way. I knew it was 'fresh' and that there were a lot of possibilities inside.

"Unfortunately or fortunately, while we were recording in England in the beginning of 1973, we were playing Mekanïk's main melody all the time, with Stundehr (Rene Garber). In the studio there was an English musician called Mike Oldfield. He only remembered this melody and it became a part of Tubular Bells, and was the music of the movie The Exorcist. Then this sound of music became usual for almost all the fantastic or horror movies. I could not go on using it. People could imagine I was copying Mike Oldfield, that's why I stopped suddenly and started Köhntarkösz.""

[calyx]

Vander's quote above confirms the chronological impossibility of his story. Indeed, he claims the excised "Dawotsin" was originally a section of "MDK", so "MDK" as we know it (recorded Spring 1973), that is, minus the "Dawotsin" section, would be the result of Vander discovering Oldfield's theft. But "Tubular Bells" was released in late May 1973 (after or during the sessions for "MDK"), "The Exorcist" in December 1973 (in the US; several months later in Europe). This, plus we have good reason to believe that the opening section for "Tubular Bells" had actually been around since 1972 and possibly 1971. And lastly, correct me if I'm wrong, but there were early versions of "Kohntarkosz" being performed as early as Spring 1973, long before Vander could possibly have seen "The Exorcist" at a cinema in France or abroad, as he otherwise claims was the circumstance in which he discovered Oldfield's "theft". None of this makes any sense. Unless, of course, anyone can offer an alternate chronology.

[Steve F.]

Fela Kuti - Original Sufferhead (1981) - yes at about 4:30. A clean MDK Ripp off! .

I was actually thinking of the 1st 40 seconds.

man, that's a great track.

[Gorillclub]

I was actually thinking of the 1st 40 seconds.

man, that's a great track.

for sure !! to me there is something "magma-esque" on this track it's obvious imo ! I don't think fela ever known magma ?? but vander was influenced by afrobeat imo ...

[A. Scherze]

You know, there are 12 notes in the Western scale. Not everything is theft.

Yeah. People accuse Emerson of lifting things like Poulenc's "Gloria" that seem to have a vague simularity but when one looks at the notation turn out not be similar, at all.

[Steve F.]

for sure !! to me there is something "magma-esque" on this track it's obvious imo ! I don't think fela ever known magma ?? but vander was influenced by afrobeat imo ...]

That is a FABULOUS mash-up. MAN!

[Scrotum Scissor]

Yeah. People accuse Emerson of lifting things like Poulenc's "Gloria"

Wonderful to note how you managed to slip something Emerson into this thread as well.

[Scrotum Scissor]

there is something "magma-esque" on this track it's obvious imo ! I don't think fela ever known magma ?? but vander was influenced by afrobeat imo

Completely, and many other "black" musics as well. This is particularly noticeable on the first two records, of course - and on The Unnamables (Univeriä Zekt) the influx of pure soul is outright profound. Don't forget that Vander was the alleged fascist who mostly dug "degenerate" contemporary or modernist classical, "negro noise", sinti and roma folk/ethnic musics, Klezmer et al.

The afrobeat influx is even more pronounced with Zao, the earliest Magma spinoff.