Yes (and Prog) as "classical music"?

[Jeremy Bender]

I was "Master Faster", I was "Mr. Mystery"
there wasn't a mortal man was gonna make a monkey out of me
I had reflex, action, first strike capability
so high - so tall - so far to fall

I took my time, my life was all without a cause
till she came bursting through the frontdoor of my heart,
just like the signs that say I'll follow by a star,
once more, no blame, I'm far, no name

Too much, too soon, a touch of moon
a burst balloon, so far, so far to fall
Ooh she had me, she had me running rings around the floor
She had me nailed to a door, she had me crying out,
she had me crying out for more, more, more, more, more, more, more
She bad me, she tied me up in knots like a piece of a string,
she did a thing to my thing, she did a thing to my thing
like it's never been done before

Too much ...

I saw stars, in the night, I was hers, I was high
I had so far to fall, such a long way to fall
and I fell and I fell and I fell ------

So if you're "Master Blaster" or you're "Mr. Mystery"
don't think you're insulated from love's electricity.
There'll be no escape for you, there was no escape for me
so high - so tall - one night you're bound to fall

I believe those are courtesy of the same man who wrote the immortal lyrics "Learned Latin verbs in fear of a beating/And for years thought central heating/Was for just old people's homes". Hint: not Greg Lake.

[grego]

'Works Vol 2' was an odds-and-sods release that, unlike The Who's album which had just that as a title, didn't really let on that's what it was. But there's some neat things on it. 'So Far To Fall' is like big-band rock and musically interesting, but oh dear, some of those lyrics!

Very good album! Never cared about how it was compiled, but i'm sure they never released that things on LP before. It is hard to believe, that a rock band could be stylistically so flexible. I remember my first listening to this, it sounded unreal multivarious. With almost every next thing, different sound, different style...Fantastic. Never heard something like that from any other band.
Peter Sinfield is responsible for lyrics, not Lake.

[Rick Robson]

I do enjoy most of the Classical Music I've known so far, but sincerely, I whish I could as well fully appreciate most of the progressive rock that I've already listened to, but I have a recurrent issue for getting to fully enjoying the majority of what I happen to know: too much complexity that lead me to boredom... On the other hand, quite a few times I've enjoyed pretty much music which is simple in terms of structure and harmony but that didn't necessarily lack deepness or intensity on its melodies.

But then again, imo we cannot compare the classical with for instance the progressive rock 'focus' on the composition itself, we all know very well in which genre(s) the improvisation spontaneity is far most explored. So, I reckon that few here in his perfect conditions can be mostly objective when talking about music, for example - for me the strenght on a given piece may be on its melodic lines arranged in a harmonic way, whilst for others may be on the richness of innovative freaking amazing sound effects.

[Rick Robson]

Not true at all. The 5/4 ostinato in Tarkus itself is based very closely on the ostinato in the 2nd movement of Ginastera's first piano sonata. One of the tunes in Battlefield is from Poulenc's Gloria and......gah, I can't even be bothered to document Emerson and Lake's borrowings any more, that way madness lies.

Interesting points you made here about Tarkus...

Sure you didn't mean Hoedown? Copland gave Keith approval, but he thought that Fanfare was a bit pointless as it just used his theme to bookend a long jam that had nothing to do with Copland's score.

I'm getting convinced that Wiki is not a reliable source, because there I read what I said about Fanfare... I didn't know that about Hoedown, thanks for sharing!

The Emerson/Mayer piano concerto is lightweight, but fun to listen to after something monumental like Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto or Prokofiev's 2nd piano concerto. Lake's side has Lend Your Love To Me Tonight and especially Closer to Believing, which I think are really fine songs, done in a style I think he would have pursued if he'd gone solo after he left King Crimson. Carl's side is the strongest, I think, I really like The Enemy Gods, L.A. Nights (kudos to Joe Walsh's good work on that) and Food for Your Soul.

Hey great call! Emo's Piano Concerto is sure one of my favourite classical pieces by a progressive rock artist...

So you love Prokofiev's 2nd piano concerto as much as Tchaikovsky's first one? Know nothing of Prokofiev, but I guess this piece is going to be my starting point.

Pirates is one of my very favorite ELP songs, easily in the Top 10, but I never want to hear Fanfare/Rondo/America/Fanfare or whatever combination it's in ever again. To me, one of the best parts of the Brain Salad Surgery tour setlist is that it doesn't have Rondo in it!

Same on here, but I prefer the orchestrated version.

About the Fanfare I enjoyed even more Keith Emerson's Fanfare energetic version with guitars on it, off the amazing Three Fates Project. Rondo, instead, was a bit compromised for Emo's virtuosity showing off imo.

[Rick Robson]

Answering to the OP question: for me nothing genuinely composed by Yes bears resemblance with classical music, except of course their 'Excerpts From Firebird Suite' and 'Cans And Brahms'.

I like their opening Excerpts From Firebird Suite' rendition, but I get curious about the people who attended to their gig without knowing their muisc, surely they might have had initially a wrong impression about the kind of music they play.

Someone here stated "the kitsch advent that was ELP (although partly unintentional)." - again the opinions proving to be a bit subjective. From my personal impressions I can say that few music made me cringe as much as 'Cans And Brahms' did, it tastes cheesy to me, at the least.

[grego]

Kitch advent...purists of rock 'n roll, that must be a real kitch)

[Jeremy Bender]

So you love Prokofiev's 2nd piano concerto as much as Tchaikovsky's first one? Know nothing of Prokofiev, but I guess this piece is going to be my starting point.

I love Tchaikovsky's music --his three ballet scores are astonishing, I've seen incredible stage productions of all three- and I do love the first piano concerto but it's also a little bit ruined for me by this Monty Python bit I love, I visualize it every time I hear that opening section:



And yes, I get it for anyone tempted to reply, Terry Jones doesn't do a very good job of miming playing the piano part.

As for Prokofiev's piano concertos, I'd suggest starting with the more user friendly 3rd, this is a terrific performance:



I've been to two concerts at the Concertgebouw, the sound of that orchestra in that hall is out of this world.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Kitch advent...purists of rock 'n roll, that must be a real kitch)

It's kitsch, and the venture of ELP has been more or less officially acknowledged as adhering to it. It's not merely "subjective" - Emerson's Liberace'ian r'n'r-antics are an established conception within writings on rock history. Were ELP and their artistic motives always "properly comprehended"? Absolutely not, but there are ups and downs to everything. Some of their music was successful, too much of it definitely wasn't.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I can say that few music made me cringe as much as 'Cans And Brahms' did, it tastes cheesy to me, at the least.

Wakeman - at his worst - was the very definition of cheap cheese. On "Cans & Brahms", however, and even reflected through the intentions of the song title, I suspect that the campy motif was wholly intentional. It's a ditty, nothing else.

[JB Horwitz]

Scrotum Scissor

Who on earth has ever made such a ridiculous claim?

I will make that claim. And i don't think it's ridiculous at all.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I will make that claim. And i don't think it's ridiculous at all.

That the music of Genesis/Yes et al. is on the level of classical music?

[JB Horwitz]

"classical music" means people filing in to concert halls where you're expected to be completely silent and not make a fuss while you watch and listen to a bunch of people sitting on stage dressed in tuxes and long gowns, led by someone

You know when these pieces were first written and played the concerts appeared more like the rock concerts we're familiar with today. And the past composers and musicians were treated like the music stars we know today.

[JB Horwitz]

That the music of Genesis/Yes et al. is on the level of classical music?

Absolutely yes!

[JB Horwitz]

Answering to the OP question: for me nothing genuinely composed by Yes bears resemblance with classical music.

And therefore, I do not agree with this. As I mentioned earlier, many of the forms proggers use are "classically" based. That to me is a resemblance. I feel that just because something is done in a modern style does not discount it from due consideration.

[JB Horwitz]

On the other hand, quite a few times I've enjoyed pretty much music which is simple in terms of structure and harmony but that didn't necessarily lack deepness or intensity on its melodies.

I agree here. Complexity does not insure a claim to quality. (Especially on an individual level!)

But then again, imo we cannot compare the classical with for instance the progressive rock 'focus' on the [I]composition itself, we all know very well in which genre(s) the improvisation spontaneity is far most explored.

Well, I think we can. Theory and analysis doesn't care what you're looking at. Analysis is after the fact. (off topic here perhaps?) It's also my understanding that most of what we consider the "great" composers of the past were very good at improvisation. (Check out the slow movement of Brandenburg in C. It's an improv movement as in chords to be improvised over)

[JB Horwitz]

the earliest jazz is far too old now to call it contemporary, but it clearly seems wrong to lump it alongside Bach, Mozart and Brahms.

I think we can put it along side these composers you've mentioned. To our ears it sounds like a big jump. But the jump from Baroque to Classical was pretty big too. Just different styles.

The category of "modern classical composers" is particularly problematic. Tony Banks' albums Seven and Six were called "classical" because they were written for orchestra; they bear some resemblance to much earlier works by composers such as Holst and Delius; and they were released on a label chiefly known for classical recordings. Does that make him a classical composer? If so, what about the Moody Blues? What about Jon Lord?

Problematic is an understatement! I'm not as concerned with Tony Banks or The Moody Blues. To me their major works are simply prog. Just like Holst but in a more modern style. My problem is more with composers like Schoenberg. To me, this is the kind of music that is totally disconnected from the line of the classical force in music. (quality)

I'd argue that whether the music of people like Yes and ELP can be called "classical", whatever that means, is not important. Clearly both bands have incorporated ideas into their music that are hundreds of years old. What matters is, have they done so in a way that works and sounds new

Dude! I think you are so right on here that I can't even express how right on I think you are! That was so well said imo. My smile is so big right now.

[cannygoodlike]

I like their opening Excerpts From Firebird Suite' rendition, but I get curious about the people who attended to their gig without knowing their muisc, surely they might have had initially a wrong impression about the kind of music they play.

AFAIK, the opening Firebird isn't a rendition by the band but is an existing orchestral recording. In any event it is played over the PA before and while the band enter the stage.

[Facelift]

You know when these pieces were first written and played the concerts appeared more like the rock concerts we're familiar with today. And the past composers and musicians were treated like the music stars we know today.

You mean like Yo-Yo Ma, Yztak Perlman, Glenn Gould, etc? Celebrity soloists have been a part of the classical music performance tradition consistently since the mid 19th century. They've even outlived the "death" of the music (hardly any additions to the composition repertoire since the 1960s).

But even if this was relevant (and it's not), it's also quite an exaggeration. The contemporary concept of the "concert hall" became more or less standardized at some point the later 19th century. However, even in the earlier 19th century, classical music composers needed commissions from royalty to get their music played. I can assure you that concert halls comprised primarily of royalty and the well-to-do weren't acting like the crowd at an AC/DC concert. That doesn't leave a whole lot of time for when classical music concerts were like rock concerts (if they ever were at all). Operas were more the "music of the masses" but that's also probably it has often been considered a middlebrow art form.

Genesis (and Yes, and all the rest of the symphonic prog bands) distinguished themselves from the rest of rock music in the '70s by incorporating elements of classical music into their songs. This doesn't make the results classical music, or even "art music," in the sense that classical music is western art music. None of these bands contributed anything significant to the western art music tradition - they merely borrowed. Often to excellent effect, but that's what it was.

In any event, I'm sure if Tony Banks read any of your commentary, you made a part of him feel very special and warm.

[mogrooves]

Complexity does not insure a claim to quality.

Precisely. Much "complex" music is merely complicated; most "difficult-to-understand" music is simply unclear. The value of music is not proportional to the quantity or intricacy of its technical apparatus.

concert halls comprised primarily of royalty and the well-to-do weren't acting like the crowd at an AC/DC concert.

Concerts were places "to see and be seen." Perhaps even more so than rock concerts they were social scenes first and foremost, the music merely incidental accompaniment to eating, drinking, smoking, card playing, and business meetings, not to mention hooking up with the ubiquitous "ladies of the evening" in the private boxes. Indeed, often the orchestra was instructed to "keep it down" so as not to disturb the card parties. Things would change, however, with Wagner.

[revporl]

I think that it makes far more sense to compare the work of composers of the period such as Cornelius Cardew or Steve Reich with some of the more experimental progressive music such as Scott Walkers later albums than it does with ELP nicking some 19th Century Classical tunes, that's just Liberace/Clayderman stylings, not serious composition.

I'm not having King Arthur on Ice as the new Gotterdamerung, I'm just not! It was a lot of fun but it's basically bollocks and makes no contribution to the evolution of 20th Century music. But I still like ELP and Wakeman for what they are, but don't start comparing them to actual composers.

[trurl]

It all depends on a point of reference I guess... I personally think the 2nd Impression of Karn Evil 9 is a piece of music that deserves to be acknowledged and performed for many years any bit as much as Beethoven's 9th. It may not be as great as the 9th but it does deserve to be remembered. Jazz is full of standards that are important in their own idiom and no one argues about whether they hold up to the work of the great classical composers.

[Facelift]

It all depends on a point of reference I guess... I personally think the 2nd Impression of Karn Evil 9 is a piece of music that deserves to be acknowledged and performed for many years any bit as much as Beethoven's 9th. It may not be as great as the 9th but it does deserve to be remembered. Jazz is full of standards that are important in their own idiom and no one argues about whether they hold up to the work of the great classical composers.

Why does it "deserve" to be performed? Because you happen to like it personally?

Nobody argues about whether or not jazz standards hold up to the work of the great composers, because it's tacitly understood that they aren't the same kind of thing. Jazz is obviously a completely different music. Jazz "standards" evolved, because it was important for the ensembles that there be a performance repertoire, and, furthermore, the audience liked hearing them and grew to expect them. It has nothing at all to do with whether or not they should be considered art music compositions - there are plenty of jazz standards, though I don't know that it would be pertinent to describe whether or not any of them "deserve" the status.

[trurl]

Yes, I said "I think" it deserves to be, not that it objectively does.

[revporl]

With Jazz and Rock music, the sound of the performer is a huge element in the piece of music itself, wheras in classical music, the performer does not impose himself in the same way. I think that's the main difference, hence all the controversey about whether various Yes lineups are "Valid", you don't get that issue with the Halle or the Berlin Phil!

[trurl]

^^^^^
There is that. But there are many people out there willing to work very hard to capture that sound as part of their performance.