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Thread: Any problems with Progarchives?

  1. #151
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Interesting all the discussion of sub-genres on PA. I’ve used the site extensively to research bands for many years, and I don’t think I ever gave the sub-genres more than a passing glance. I actually had to look up what sub-genre Eccentric Orbit was in. We’re Symphonic Prog, who knew?

    If the expectation is that people will use the site to find “more bands like this one,” I actually think some level of categorization is OK, understanding it will be somewhat blunt. But I can see the confusion if you are looking for more Symph-type bands, and PFM and Banco don’t come up because they’re in RPI, or you’re looking for more great Italian bands and Picchio Dal Pozzo doesn’t come up because they’re in Canterbury.

    So, some of the criticisms here seem valid, and it seems PA could probably look at some of that with fresh eyes. But that one issue doesn’t diminish the value of this site for me. In some ways, PA is the continuation of GEPR, which was a great resource in that it gave rich descriptions of bands from multiple perspectives. I use it extensively and to me it’s a great resource.

    Bill

  2. #152
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    I don't get hung up on the genres too much over on PA. I'm on the Avant - Zeuhl team. We're more interested in whether we consider them prog or not and then figure out if they are a fit to Avant. There are many bands who are clearly prog but undecipherable in terms of which sub-genre. Often we think they are close and will check out if another genre thinks they are a better fit if not we'll take them back and add them. It's all personal opinions, people get quite heated if you decline their suggestion as they are clearly prog in their definition. We also have a couple of trolls over there who seem to want to carpet bomb the site with suggestions of any band on bandcamp with progressive in their tags. People take it way too seriously, this is a hobby for a bunch of unpaid volunteers.
    Ian

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    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
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  3. #153
    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    Interesting all the discussion of sub-genres on PA. I’ve used the site extensively to research bands for many years, and I don’t think I ever gave the sub-genres more than a passing glance. I actually had to look up what sub-genre Eccentric Orbit was in. We’re Symphonic Prog, who knew?

    If the expectation is that people will use the site to find “more bands like this one,” I actually think some level of categorization is OK, understanding it will be somewhat blunt. But I can see the confusion if you are looking for more Symph-type bands, and PFM and Banco don’t come up because they’re in RPI, or you’re looking for more great Italian bands and Picchio Dal Pozzo doesn’t come up because they’re in Canterbury.

    So, some of the criticisms here seem valid, and it seems PA could probably look at some of that with fresh eyes. But that one issue doesn’t diminish the value of this site for me. In some ways, PA is the continuation of GEPR, which was a great resource in that it gave rich descriptions of bands from multiple perspectives. I use it extensively and to me it’s a great resource.

    Bill
    I am not criticizing the "Symphonic Prog" or the "Avant Zeuhl" aspect of sub genres. What I am talking about is the "Avant Depressed Prog Metal Grunge Pseudo-Zeuhl Lethargic Acid Psychedelic Electronic Theremin Guitar-based Mongolian Proto Neo Post-Modern Neo Minimalist on a Sesame seed Bun" stuff I have seen in that forum. WTF is THAT?
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

  4. #154
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Experimental / Post Metal - Tool & Unexpect
    Progressive Metal - Dream Theater & Symphony X
    Technical Extreme Prog Metal - Opeth & Cynic & Voivod

    No I don't really get it but then I'm not a Metal specialist, you go onto specialist metal sites and there seems to be dozens of sub-genres. The PA break out seems to be more a function of the metal in general proliferation rather than anything PA specific.

    Capture.jpg
    Last edited by NogbadTheBad; 09-25-2015 at 10:55 AM.
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Sputnik View Post
    Interesting all the discussion of sub-genres on PA. I’ve used the site extensively to research bands for many years, and I don’t think I ever gave the sub-genres more than a passing glance. I actually had to look up what sub-genre Eccentric Orbit was in. We’re Symphonic Prog, who knew?

    If the expectation is that people will use the site to find “more bands like this one,” I actually think some level of categorization is OK, understanding it will be somewhat blunt. But I can see the confusion if you are looking for more Symph-type bands, and PFM and Banco don’t come up because they’re in RPI, or you’re looking for more great Italian bands and Picchio Dal Pozzo doesn’t come up because they’re in Canterbury.

    So, some of the criticisms here seem valid, and it seems PA could probably look at some of that with fresh eyes. But that one issue doesn’t diminish the value of this site for me. In some ways, PA is the continuation of GEPR, which was a great resource in that it gave rich descriptions of bands from multiple perspectives. I use it extensively and to me it’s a great resource.

    Bill

    This is my take on it. I mean, it's entirely volunteer, so I think you have to cut some slack. The amount of crap that gets thrown at the collabs is quite large. At times, half the threads are, "Why isn't X band considered prog (or avant or symph or whatever)?".

    Let's be honest here. Is there really ANY possibility that there could exist an "Ultimate" resource for progressive rock that wouldn't be contentious, that no prog fans would have complaints about? I don't think such a thing is possible. I suppose with enough money, a site could get close, but as we all know by now, there really isn't any money in PLAYING progressive rock, let alone building and maintaining sites dedicated to the wider genre.

    I have had MANY complaints about PA over the years, but when it comes down to it, there is no place on the web that has been more useful to me in finding stuff that I want to check out. Your millage may vary (of course).

  6. #156
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    The biggest issue as I see it is the single genre tagging of artists where most artists evolve over time. That is purely a function of the software and there is nothing PA can do about it. That leads to the types of discussions where does a band get included if any of their albums are prog? The classic oft repeated example is Mile Davis, if you are going to include Fusion in Prog (and personally I do) then you have to have Bitches Brew and In A Silent Way included, they are landmark albums. This then results in the entirety of Miles' discography getting included all the way back to 1945. After that the collaborators lose control as all albums are rated based on the rating input by all members. Thus you get a bunch of people (724 to be exact) rating Kind Of Blue on a Prog database and it becomes one of the top 100 prog albums of all time. Clearly this is lunacy. But it is a function of the softwares limitations, the desire to include Miles' fusion albums and the general membership rating a jazz album highly. You do lose credibility in these cases but it is understandable given the limitations.
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  7. #157
    Member Sputnik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infandous View Post
    This is my take on it. I mean, it's entirely volunteer, so I think you have to cut some slack. The amount of crap that gets thrown at the collabs is quite large. At times, half the threads are, "Why isn't X band considered prog (or avant or symph or whatever)?".
    The battles are so fierce because the stakes are so low.

    Quote Originally Posted by infandous View Post
    Let's be honest here. Is there really ANY possibility that there could exist an "Ultimate" resource for progressive rock that wouldn't be contentious, that no prog fans would have complaints about?
    Yes, but you'd have to cull 75% of the Prog audience.

  8. #158
    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    Experimental / Post Metal - Tool & Unexpect
    Progressive Metal - Dream Theater & Symphony X
    Technical Extreme Prog Metal - Opeth & Cynic & Voivod

    No I don't really get it but then I'm not a Metal specialist, you go onto specialist metal sites and there seems to be dozens of sub-genres.
    Opeth is not technical and they were extreme on the early albums.
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

  9. #159
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rune Blackwings View Post
    Opeth is not technical and they were extreme on the early albums.
    Well it's not both, it's either/or. They are another example of a band being set up in one genre then evolving into another and the system not being able to cope.
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  10. #160
    Yeah, I always felt that the sub genres *could* work if they could be applied on an album, but not band, basis. It was made apparent long ago that that is simply not possible without starting over, which the administrator understandably does not want to do.

  11. #161
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    The biggest issue as I see it is the single genre tagging of artists where most artists evolve over time. That is purely a function of the software and there is nothing PA can do about it. That leads to the types of discussions where does a band get included if any of their albums are prog? The classic oft repeated example is Mile Davis, if you are going to include Fusion in Prog (and personally I do) then you have to have Bitches Brew and In A Silent Way included, they are landmark albums. This then results in the entirety of Miles' discography getting included all the way back to 1945. After that the collaborators lose control as all albums are rated based on the rating input by all members. Thus you get a bunch of people (724 to be exact) rating Kind Of Blue on a Prog database and it becomes one of the top 100 prog albums of all time. Clearly this is lunacy. But it is a function of the softwares limitations, the desire to include Miles' fusion albums and the general membership rating a jazz album highly. You do lose credibility in these cases but it is understandable given the limitations.
    Perfectly understandable; that clears up the 'why is Kind Of Blue' in the top 100... I guess the only answer would be to only include the albums by an artist which actually have some Prog music on them. KoB would not ehn even be in the database.
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  12. #162
    Member WytchCrypt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    The biggest issue as I see it is the single genre tagging of artists where most artists evolve over time. That is purely a function of the software and there is nothing PA can do about it. That leads to the types of discussions where does a band get included if any of their albums are prog? The classic oft repeated example is Mile Davis, if you are going to include Fusion in Prog (and personally I do) then you have to have Bitches Brew and In A Silent Way included, they are landmark albums. This then results in the entirety of Miles' discography getting included all the way back to 1945. After that the collaborators lose control as all albums are rated based on the rating input by all members. Thus you get a bunch of people (724 to be exact) rating Kind Of Blue on a Prog database and it becomes one of the top 100 prog albums of all time. Clearly this is lunacy. But it is a function of the softwares limitations, the desire to include Miles' fusion albums and the general membership rating a jazz album highly. You do lose credibility in these cases but it is understandable given the limitations.
    Ya, unfortunately people just getting into prog will stumble upon PA, run the top 100 ranking and maybe go out and drop some $$$ on the 27th greatest prog album of all time - Kind of Blue. On a similar note (or growl :-) people will hear Opeth's Pale Communion and think these guys are a great prog band, check out their other PA albums and then pick up Blackwater Park as it's rated higher, then it's WTF is this?

    It's really unfortunate that when the software was being setup, no one considered the problems with forcing an innovative and evolving (the definition of progressive?) band into a single subgenre. Shoot, look at the career of The Beatles and how they re-invented themselves many times throughout their 7 or 8 year career. Oh well, I guess like everything else in life...PA prog recommendations are a buyer beware thing
    Check out my solo project prog band, Mutiny in Jonestown at https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/

    Check out my solo project progressive doom metal band, WytchCrypt at https://wytchcrypt.bandcamp.com/


  13. #163
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    Most of my criticisms of PA, and I suspect most of the criticisms of PA in general, could be dealt with if they just tackled the elephant in the room. LET AN ACT BELONG TO MORE THAN ONE SUB-GENRE.

    So their database software doesn't allow it? There are database systems out there that will, and some are freeware. Conversion would be a hassle, but would need to be done once only.

  14. #164
    Pendulumswingingdoomsday Rune Blackwings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    Well it's not both, it's either/or. They are another example of a band being set up in one genre then evolving into another and the system not being able to cope.
    the metal chart is a work of utter silliness as well.
    "Alienated-so alien I go!"

  15. #165
    I'm here for the moosic NogbadTheBad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    Most of my criticisms of PA, and I suspect most of the criticisms of PA in general, could be dealt with if they just tackled the elephant in the room. LET AN ACT BELONG TO MORE THAN ONE SUB-GENRE.

    So their database software doesn't allow it? There are database systems out there that will, and some are freeware. Conversion would be a hassle, but would need to be done once only.
    The owner has made it very clear it ain't gonna happen. So make the best of it and get over it.
    Ian

    Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on progrock.com
    https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-a...re-happy-hour/

    Gordon Haskell - "You've got to keep the groove in your head and play a load of bollocks instead"
    I blame Wynton, what was the question?
    There are only 10 types of people in the World, those who understand binary and those that don't.

  16. #166
    Moderator Sean's Avatar
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    I think this thread has run it's course. I wish our brothers and sisters at PA the best. Prog is a tiny raft we are all floating on. No need to divide anything. Just LOVE the music and don't get caught up in the categorization. It's a dead end.

    In the end what's in your heart is what matters, not your mind or some chart.
    Last edited by Sean; 09-25-2015 at 03:02 PM.

  17. #167
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by infandous View Post
    This is my take on it. I mean, it's entirely volunteer, so I think you have to cut some slack. The amount of crap that gets thrown at the collabs is quite large. At times, half the threads are, "Why isn't X band considered prog (or avant or symph or whatever)?".

    Let's be honest here. Is there really ANY possibility that there could exist an "Ultimate" resource for progressive rock that wouldn't be contentious, that no prog fans would have complaints about? I don't think such a thing is possible. I suppose with enough money, a site could get close, but as we all know by now, there really isn't any money in PLAYING progressive rock, let alone building and maintaining sites dedicated to the wider genre.

    I have had MANY complaints about PA over the years, but when it comes down to it, there is no place on the web that has been more useful to me in finding stuff that I want to check out. Your millage may vary (of course).
    Amen to this !!!



    BTW, the PE thread in PA's forum is now closed. We think it was started by what could be an incarnation of this Wallace arsehole (who's been around here as well)
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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