Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Alcatraz "borrowed" from Nucleus?

  1. #1
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Nothern Virginia, USA
    Posts
    3,022

    Alcatraz "borrowed" from Nucleus?

    So I was listening to Vampire State Building from Alcatraz for the first time in what must be a decade. The opening track "Simple Headphone Mind" was immediately sounding familiar to me...too familiar.

    It struck me how much it sounds like a Nucleus song and sure enough, it's essentially a slightly different version of Torrid Zone from Elastic Rock.

    What's puzzling me is why would Alcatraz so clearly lift the song, re-title it, not give credit. I was also thinking maybe Torrid Zone itself came from a previous jazz source, but the liners state it's a Karl Jenkins song.

    Anyone ever catch this or am I just late to the party?



    Nucleus:



    Alcatraz:
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  2. #2
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fluffy Cloud
    Posts
    5,635
    Yes, they flat-out stole it from Karl & Nucleus. I think I mention it in the Wayside description I wrote 10 years ago.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  3. #3
    Jazzbo manqué Mister Triscuits's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Utopia
    Posts
    5,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    I was also thinking maybe Torrid Zone itself came from a previous jazz source, but the liners state it's a Karl Jenkins song.
    Although not the same tune, I would say that it owes more than a little to "Maiden Voyage."

  4. #4
    Member nosebone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Stamford, Ct.
    Posts
    1,528
    Although I don't have the Alcatraz album, it certainly sounds like Torrid Zone.

    How is the rest of that Vampire thing?
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  5. #5
    Member mellotron storm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Wasaga Beach
    Posts
    316
    I had the same experience several years ago. Back then I would put five new discs on at work and play them all week, well the first time "Simple Headphone Mind" comes on I go over to see who it was because I knew the song. Well of course it was Alcatraz and I knew I new it and it drove me crazy as I couldn't put my finger on it for about a week. I did mention that in the review on PA that I did of it back then.
    "The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
    Sad Rain
    Anekdoten

  6. #6
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    42°09′30″N 71°08′43″W
    Posts
    6,262
    google.com:"simple headphone mind" "torrid zone" only returns 18 hits, one of which is this thread, so it doesn't seem to be widely known. Steve's review is there.

  7. #7
    Member mellotron storm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Wasaga Beach
    Posts
    316
    Quote Originally Posted by nosebone View Post
    Although I don't have the Alcatraz album, it certainly sounds like Torrid Zone.

    How is the rest of that Vampire thing?
    Jazzy Krautrock with sax and flute. Simple Headphone Mind is the highlight in my opinion. I did my review in 2009 I noticed.
    "The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
    Sad Rain
    Anekdoten

  8. #8
    Recorded by Kurt Graupner (Faust's engineer) at Wumme

  9. #9
    I remember spotting this years ago.

    Guess I never bothered to check the credits but looking at the original LP's label on Discogs, it appears Alcatraz pulled a Jimmy Page on this.

  10. #10
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    in a cosmic jazzy-groove around Brussels
    Posts
    6,091
    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post
    It struck me how much it sounds like a Nucleus song and sure enough, it's essentially a slightly different version of Torrid Zone from Elastic Rock.

    What's puzzling me is why would Alcatraz so clearly lift the song, re-title it, not give credit. I was also thinking maybe Torrid Zone itself came from a previous jazz source, but the liners state it's a Karl Jenkins song
    Yikes!!! I didn't even compare with Torrid Zone (I know the first two Nucleus by heart), but listening to Alcatraz (didn't even know these guys existed), it's so evident they did (and adding a Mick Abrahams-style guitar solo won't change much to the theft).

    I probably wouldn't have recognized Torrid Zone right away, but I'd most likely have spotted the Alcatraz felony right away at first listen.

    Not that their cover version is bad (on the contrary), but this really sucks.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffCarney View Post
    I remember spotting this years ago.

    Guess I never bothered to check the credits but looking at the original LP's label on Discogs, it appears Alcatraz pulled a Jimmy Page on this.
    Funny you should say that, I heard a (very slight) nod to the middle section in "Whole Lotta Love" later in the piece...
    Calyx (Canterbury Scene) - http://www.calyx-canterbury.fr
    Legends In Their Own Lunchtime (blog) - https://canterburyscene.wordpress.com/
    My latest books : "Yes" (2017) - https://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/yes/ + "L'Ecole de Canterbury" (2016) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/lecoledecanterbury/ + "King Crimson" (2012/updated 2018) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/kingcrimson/
    Canterbury & prog interviews - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdf...IUPxUMA/videos

  12. #12
    Member nosebone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Stamford, Ct.
    Posts
    1,528
    Quote Originally Posted by mellotron storm View Post
    Jazzy Krautrock with sax and flute. Simple Headphone Mind is the highlight in my opinion. I did my review in 2009 I noticed.
    thx.
    I like jazzy Krautrock with sax and flute.
    no tunes, no dynamics, no nosebone

  13. #13
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Posts
    7,261
    But then again Karl Jenkins 'stole' Arjens Bag from John McLaughlin's Extrapolation and called it "Day's Eye" (Soft Machine 7).

    And a great rendition btw

  14. #14
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fluffy Cloud
    Posts
    5,635
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    But then again Karl Jenkins 'stole' Arjens Bag from John McLaughlin's Extrapolation and called it "Day's Eye" (Soft Machine 7).

    And a great rendition btw
    No.

    Not Karl. Sadly it was was Mike Ratledge. Check the credits.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  15. #15
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    in a cosmic jazzy-groove around Brussels
    Posts
    6,091
    I was checking out Alcatraz's discography, and I was surprised to see that it's a 70's band.

    So I looked in Asbjornssen's Cosmic Dreams At Play , and I was surprised to find it there. Couldn't really understand how I ,missed thios band, though...

    Got a solid alibi, though. I just looked it up in my second (expanded) edition. But when I first did my extensive (but not exhaustive) search through krautrock (at large) in the mid to late 90's, I had the "famous" first edition serie that missed page 7 to 14, in which Alcatraz's entry was. So it was kind of normal this band escaped my radar the first time. And when I bought the second edition, I guessed I didn't really read those first pages.

    Soooo, that's my alibi, and I'm sticking to it.

    BTW, at least two reviewers in RYM noticed the "theft", including some ex-Yugoslav (if I can tell by the language he's writing his review) and the other saying they only borrowed parts. In PA, only John (Storm) noticed it.
    Last edited by Trane; 07-16-2015 at 03:05 AM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  16. #16
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Posts
    7,261
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    No.

    Not Karl. Sadly it was was Mike Ratledge. Check the credits.
    Damn, you are right: "Day's Eye" (Mike Ratledge) – 5:05
    I took it for granted

  17. #17
    Member Joe F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Bothell, Washington
    Posts
    402
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    I was checking out Alcatraz's discography, and I was surprised to see that it's a 70's band.
    There was also an '80s metal band named Alcatraz with Graham Bonnet and Yngwie. The German band is far superior, imo.

  18. #18
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fluffy Cloud
    Posts
    5,635
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Damn, you are right: "Day's Eye" (Mike Ratledge) – 5:05
    I took it for granted
    Think about that fact and then think about this photo. What were they saying to each other? And who is the guy in the middle?

    RATLEG~1.jpg
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  19. #19
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Posts
    7,261
    John says: "Quite frankly.."
    Mike says: " but I added two bars to the riff"
    The guy in the middle is from the mafia and has invested a fortune in that tune. He has a gun under the table...

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •