Prog music as repertoire

[proggy_jazzer]

One of the side-tracks of the "Billy Sherwood" discussion is quite deserving of its own thread, I think. Viz:

You know, I don't think we're there yet but I could easily envision a time in the not so distant future where a very accomplished group of musicians could go out and perform progressive rock created by the bands who are no longer around to do it themselves. They might call themselves the San Francisco Progressive Rock Ensemble or something. Every once in a while they might be able to slip in a piece of new music one of them wrote, but for the most part they make their living playing and touring a repertoire of songs by Yes, KC, Genesis, ELP, etc. This wouldn't be the same as Brit Floyd or anything because they'd be playing material by multiple groups. But after Yes, KC, etc. are all long gone that'll be the only way to satisfy any continuing demand to hear that music in a live setting. In that regard these bands will have passed into a status similar to Mozart, Brahms, etc.

I can totally see this happening, and even more, I don't think it's even in the not-so-distant future. There are already plenty of ensembles at the college level doing this. I did it myself with a group I directed at a community college some years ago. I think it's great, and has a lot to offer young musicians in a completely different way than groups oriented around a jazz composer. There, the focus is on developing improvisational skills, whereas the repertoire of progressive rock develops skills closer to the classical mindset, of playing more complex, lengthy, compositions and trying to recreate them faithfully. Some might not think that's a great idea:

I would certainly hope that the talented young rock musicians of the future strike out to primarily make their own original songs, not work in tribute bands or covers bands.

Now, I realize I'm taking Facelift's quote out-of-context, but I think the thought applies here (please forgive me and let me know if I'm wrong, Facelift). My opinion is that it is a good thing for young musicians to be doing, at least in part. After all, what band doesn't start out playing covers to some extent? It's all about the quality of the music you're covering, and how convincingly you put it across. Why not start by covering something of quality and doing it well?

At any rate, I thought it might make for an interesting discussion. Other opinions?

[Scrotum Scissor]

Dead Dino Storage here in Oslo have been doing this for over 20 years. Sometimes with a varied repertoire, other times with programmes solely dedicated to one specific band or subgenre or album etc. When they did their Gentle Giant tribute some eight years back (at Amatøren, traditional local student's pub at the Sogn campus dorm), they not only reproduced the legendary "Octopus medley" but actually added to it, prompting two audience members who'd seen GGiant themselves in the 70s to claim Dead Dino Storage the triumphant part of the deal. Took them three months of rehearsals just for that one gig, tho. There were members of Panzerpappa and Jaga Jazzist in the band that evening, IIRC. These aren't exactly slouches.

[Jay.Dee]

Another example is Delta Saxophone Quartet which tackled Soft Machine and King Crimson repertoire.



http://www.deltasax.com/projects.php

[miamiscot]

Dead Dino Storage here in Oslo have been doing this for over 20 years. Sometimes with a varied repertoire, other times with programmes solely dedicated to one specific band or subgenre or album etc. When they did their Gentle Giant tribute some eight years back (at Amatøren, traditional local student's pub at the Sogn campus dorm), they not only reproduced the legendary "Octopus medley" but actually added to it, prompting two audience members who'd seen GGiant themselves in the 70s to claim Dead Dino Storage the triumphant part of the deal. Took them three months of rehearsals just for that one gig, tho. There were members of Panzerpappa and Jaga Jazzist in the band that evening, IIRC. These aren't exactly slouches.

Sounds amazing! Prog will never die.

There will always be fools like me who think it's the best genre of music ever.

[Jeremy Bender]

Keith Emerson talked for years about doing orchestrated versions of Tarkus and Karn Evil 9, I'd love to hear quality orchestrations done with a rock band that knows the style (i.e. no fretless five-string bass players who use their fingers in the Lake role). Cost prohibitive I'd imagine though.....

[A. Scherze]

Isn't this what the Paul Green School of Rock has been doing for a long while now?

[DGuitarist]

This is what our former tribute band did. We covered 9 different progressive bands in one night.

[Facelift]

At any rate, I thought it might make for an interesting discussion. Other opinions?

With regard to my quote - yes, it was somewhat out of context, but I'm happy to discuss within the context that you gave it. If my statement was to be meant in absolute terms, of course I wouldn't agree with it. There's lots of music out there in the rock/pop vein that transcended the general era in which it was made. I mean, virtually every biopic about a popular musician that I've ever seen has a scene whereby some older fuddy-duddy makes a comment about how nobody will ever remember so-and-so after a point in the not-too-distant future, at whose expense we the audience are supposed to chuckle knowingly. Plenty of us in here have become fans of artists in these genres who were already defunct or deceased when we got into them. And, of course, there is the layer beyond that where older songs are played/recorded as covers, by different ensembles entirely, and this stuff has a place. The best of these, though, are the products of bands who put their own personalized stamp on the material. The songs themselves - even "progressive" songs - aren't fixed pieces of music like classical music. What would a later band be "faithful" to? The original recording? How the original band performed the songs live in their prime? How the original band played them most recently?

I would reiterate my earlier sentiment that I don't have much enthusiasm for talented younger people of future generations to form musical ensembles dedicated to playing renditions of progressive rock that is essentially a reproduction of the "original" studio recordings. I see little point in it - if I want to hear that, I can always play the albums. If they're going to play strongly personalized renditions thereof then I'd be as interested in that as I would the creative output of any talented group - older pieces being the springboards for new creations happen all the time: Coltrane was identified with My Favorite Things for quite some time, for example. I would have to think that, for the most part, any group of players capable of making interesting variations of older progressive rock pieces would probably eventually transition to primarily making original music of their own, but I guess that's just my own speculation.

[Dave (in MA)]

One of the side-tracks of the "Billy Sherwood" discussion is quite deserving of its own thread, I think. Viz:

You know, I don't think we're there yet but I could easily envision a time in the not so distant future where a very accomplished group of musicians could go out and perform progressive rock created by the bands who are no longer around to do it themselves.

Jobson did something along these lines a few years with his Ultimate Zero project; they did pieces from UK, Crimson and Mahavishnu when, while many of the musicians are still around, none of those bands were active at the time.

[Scott Bails]

There were members of Panzerpappa and Jaga Jazzist in the band that evening, IIRC. These aren't exactly slouches.

Ahh...but are they "first-rate musicians?"

[DGuitarist]

Now you understand why we eventually formed an original band. Too many "real prog fans" who are willing to judge you because you actually played the studio songs too well. "I might as well listen to the album at home." Yeah, but when your favorite famous prog band covers one of these songs as encore, and not nearly as faithful as we did - you swoon to the floor in admiration.

Ever contemplate that a live version of a song recorded in the 70s just MIGHT sound better today with an actual band performing it right in front of your ears? You can't win. "Why don't you write original songs if you play that well?" Thanks, that was a compliment!................I think.

No wonder many musicians aren't that interested in playing progressive rock covers, they're very difficult to perfect as a band. And unless every member is a really good musician and is willing to do their homework to nail all the techniques required, I'd rather play free-jazz as well. But it takes more discipline to REALLY learn a prog cover tune.

[Zeuhlmate]

I you plan to copy a progband to the letter, rather than make your own versions / interpretations, everybody listening will compare in their heads.

Great YES medley by KOREKYOJINN:

[Jay.Dee]

Great YES medley by KOREKYOJINN

Very good indeed.

I have an idea for the future refurbishment of YES lineup. Howe, Sherwood & White - out, Natsuki, Mitsuro & Tatsuya - in. Nobody will complain about slow tempos ever again!

[Reginod]

I do think that over time a lot of this music will continue to be played and interpreted, sometimes in very clever or creative ways that will breathe a new life, of sorts, into the music. I for one would probably prefer unique interpretations or even re-arrangements over hewing so faithfully to the original versions, but it will probably be done both ways and the results will vary.

[Zeuhlmate]

Its a bit like hearing interpretations of Hendrix, most are pretty lame - just makes me want to hear the original instead.
The one exception I enjoy is The Gil Evans Orchestra Plays the Music of Jimi Hendrix, because its so different, and with this I dont start thinking of the shortcomings of the guitarist.
.

[Koreabruce]

Ahh...but are they "first-rate musicians?"

[Koreabruce]

I you plan to copy a progband to the letter, rather than make your own versions / interpretations, everybody listening will compare in their heads.

Great YES medley by KOREKYOJINN:

Holy crap that was great!

[Scrotum Scissor]

Ahh...but are they "first-rate musicians?"

Ohh... I only know they performed material by alleged "first-rate musicians" such as Yes - without much challenge. But then again I've met many who did. Jarle Storløkken, guitarist of Panzerpappa and music academic, also leads a large Corea tribute band which actually had Corea himself transmit his greetings live on a grand screen after one of their shows here in Oslo a few years back. Of course, Corea could never hold up to the musicians in Yes, I mean, no way, and as for Jaga Jazzist, well - like - who are they and stuff. It's not like they are exactly in the class of Brislin, Rabin, Sherwood or that Russian womanizer synth-player or anything.

So no, not top notch by any means whatsoever.

[proggy_jazzer]

Thanks to everyone who's responded so far; some very cool contributions!

The best of these, though, are the products of bands who put their own personalized stamp on the material. The songs themselves - even "progressive" songs - aren't fixed pieces of music like classical music. What would a later band be "faithful" to? The original recording? How the original band performed the songs live in their prime? How the original band played them most recently?

I would reiterate my earlier sentiment that I don't have much enthusiasm for talented younger people of future generations to form musical ensembles dedicated to playing renditions of progressive rock that is essentially a reproduction of the "original" studio recordings. I see little point in it - if I want to hear that, I can always play the albums. If they're going to play strongly personalized renditions thereof then I'd be as interested in that as I would the creative output of any talented group - older pieces being the springboards for new creations happen all the time: Coltrane was identified with My Favorite Things for quite some time, for example. I would have to think that, for the most part, any group of players capable of making interesting variations of older progressive rock pieces would probably eventually transition to primarily making original music of their own, but I guess that's just my own speculation.

I agree with this pretty much 100%. My viewpoint, based on spending most of my adult life in and around music education, is that there is value in learning a prog classic note-for-note and sound-for-sound, in the same way that there is value in learning to completely copy and immerse oneself in a transcribed solo from a jazz artist. It's a way of developing and adding to one's vocabulary. What happens after that is more important, though. Facelift is completely correct in saying (paraphrasing here) that as a performance ideal rote recreation has only a limited value. Once a player (or ensemble) has completely absorbed a composition or style, then to take it to the next level they must add an individual or unique stamp to the performance or arrangement. The way Cuong Vu's trio approach jazz standard repertoire on Leap of Faith comes to mind as a good example; if you weren't familiar with the standard they're covering you might mistake the performance for an original composition from one of the group's other recordings.

So, no, I generally don't want to hear a performance that is simply a re-creation of a "classic" album or composition, no matter how great it might be (Musical Box, Paul Green SOR, etc); I'd prefer to listen to the original in the comfort of my own listening space But as the progressive rock we all love enters the repertoire age, I think we're starting to see bands and ensembles arising that create very original and engaging music that has as a part of its DNA the classic prog gene, and that's very exciting to me.

[Rarebird]

If it would be repertoire, there are several possibilities.
A. People making complete new arrangements, which could be very interesting.
B. People playing the music with modern instruments, but besides that as close to the original as possible. (Like with most classical music.)
C. People playing the music on the same instruments it was originally recorded with. (Like ensembles playing classical music on period instruments.)

[JKL2000]

"Tribute" bands like Soft Machine Legacy where the band can improvise are probably more satisfying for band and audience. Less of a feel that it's audio taxidermy.

[No Pride]

No wonder many musicians aren't that interested in playing progressive rock covers, they're very difficult to perfect as a band. And unless every member is a really good musician and is willing to do their homework to nail all the techniques required, I'd rather play free-jazz as well. But it takes more discipline to REALLY learn a prog cover tune.

It'd be a close call competing for which would make less money, a prog cover band or a free-jazz band.

But it certainly can be a good discipline learning to faithfully play prog covers. I was briefly in a Gentle Giant cover band. It was probably the most challenging music I've ever played and I enjoyed the challenge, though practicing that stuff consumed more of my time than a sane person would have allotted. I would've liked the project to hold together long enough to really do that music justice, but it didn't work out that way for several reasons (and I'll spare you the sordid details). Still, I think that if it had worked out and the band had all the right players and became tight, I would've gotten bored with it eventually. It's just much more rewarding to play your own music, or at least be in a situation where enough improvisation and band interaction is allowed to make it into something reasonably unique. Playing tough music and nailing it is good, but actually creating something is better.

I you plan to copy a progband to the letter, rather than make your own versions / interpretations, everybody listening will compare in their heads.

Great YES medley by KOREKYOJINN:

That was interesting, although I'm not a fan of medleys in general, particularly ones that don't stay with one tune for more than a minute.

But it reminded me of this amusing tidbit of Mike Keneally's. He jammed more Yes quotes into one and a half minutes than Korekyojinn fit into almost six minutes. It comes off as a spoof, but Mike insists that it's a loving tribute.

[klothos]

Right here in the middle of Retirement Villas, USA (Central Florida) I can already tell you that a hypothetical showband specializing in 70s Prog "Hey Day" covers (Yes, PF, Genesis, Moody Blues, some ELO, KC, Zappa, GG, Rush, Nektar, Kansas, etc.,..basically, the popular acts) mixed with progessive songs of any nature (such as "Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey" by Paul McCartney or a few Grateful Dead songs or CSN&Y) would go over great if it came out right now.........this thread has actually given me something to think about as nobody is doing it in this area but I can see it working very well

Here is the catch: A band like this would do well only as a "Specialty Act" -- there are still too many people in these communities that either believe "live music" is all about "line dancing" or just do not understand complex forms of rock (and, it should be unfortunately noted, that women generally do not like this kind of music) so it would have to play out sporadically....but it would go over and it would have the potential to build quite a following

[Jeremy Bender]

Hahaha, that's a fantastic bit by Mike Keneally, glad he got the Cha-cha-cha-cha's in there.

Playing tough music and nailing it is good, but actually creating something is better.

After hearing about The Musical Box in the late 90's, I seriously considered taking out a loan and financing an ELP tribute band that was more than some guys doing the songs (often with a metal-ish lead singer and both a guitar and bass player) in a loose fashion with no attempt to create the look of ELP in the early 70's. I would have been "Greg Lake", I would have taken voice lessons, learned all the bass and guitar parts until they were second nature. Then all the questions and problems came up: the cost of buying equipment especially a PA system as relying on those in clubs would be dicey, how to transport it all around? How to pay for a rehearsal space big enough for a full show (how to get the BSS cover made in to curtains?), how to get gigs (that would have meant getting a booking agent at a minimum), how much to pay a crew of at least 3 guys to hump all the equipment and help set it up? Most of all, how to convince a keyboard player and drummer good enough to play the music to put any career they might have on hold during the rehearsal period and that since I was paying for it that they had to play the songs I wanted, how I wanted them done ("No! I insist we do Touch and Go!!!!!") etc.

Then there was the aesthetic choices: what songs to do (I had zero in interest in doing any of Lake's ballads or anything not named Pirates that was written after the BSS days), here was the setlist I settled on:

Hoedown
Knife Edge (album version, no Moog solo before the Bach bit)
Tarkus (WMBF arrangement)
Bitches Crystal
The Endless Enigma (complete)
A Time and A Place
Pirates
Karn Evil 9 (complete)
Encore: Pictures at an Exhibition (1974 arrangement)

= 2 hours. The 45 minute version would have been Hoedown/Knife Edge/Bitches Crystal/Karn Evil 9.

How to do them i.e. copy the solos note-for-note (much easier for a Genesis or Rush tribute band as those bands rarely if ever improvised) or add one's own stuff on stuff like Aquatarkus > what arrangements to use (Pictures from 1970 or 1972 or 1974?) > do you dress up like they did ca. 1974 with the "Keith" wearing a striped long-sleeved shirt & vest & leather pants with boots and so on.

What equipment to use? I would have used a Jazz Bass and Ripper through HiWatt amps and a Les Paul through a Fender and expected the drummer to have a kit similar to Carl's BSS tour kit, but the keyboard player, would he be expected to deal with monophonic synths and all the headaches that involves (and which wouldn't work on Pirates in any case) or do I insist on using Moogs such as this

moog_memorymoog_angle.jpg

that were at least programmable (but in the Memorymoog's case had major tuning issues) or do you use digital synths that wouldn't have the right sounds, even though there was a Keith CD-Rom of Moog and organ samples for an Akai S1000 sampler aka a dinosaur in terms of sampling? How to get a realistic dirty Hammond C-3 sound, lugging around a real C-3 + Leslies + guitar amps setup would be a nightmare, what are the other options for a spot-on Hammond sound? How do you get a good 9 foot Steinway sound without lugging around a 9 foot Steinway and having to mic it?

Needless to say, I filed the idea away in the "Nice idea, WAY too much hassle" folder.

[A. Scherze]