Charles Ives

[chalkpie]

The Fourth of July (from the Holidays Symphony) is one of the craziest things he ever wrote, maybe only second to the comedy movement (ii) of the Fourth Symphony. This is still the finest recording of the Holidays (Michael Tilson Thomas, Chicago Symphony, 1986).

Here is an Amazon 'review' I did of this disc back in 2007 (!).....seems like forever ago!

5 of 5 people found the following review helpful
Essential Ives Recording
By Frank C. on September 12, 2007
Format: Audio CD
"Since becoming my favorite "classical" composer some many years ago now, Ives' incredibly unique and uncompromising music has an unexplainable quality that works magic over repeated listens. With the Holidays, this is a case in point.

Not only do I consider Ives Holidays to be sitting at the pinnacle of Ives orchestral oeuvre (along with Robert Browning, Orchestral Sets Nos. 1 and 2, and the mighty Fourth), but you will not find a better or more convincing performance on disc as of late 2007. To my ears, the only competition is Sinclair's excellent "Washington's Birthday" on Naxos (coupled with a tremendous Third Symphony), but sadly that is only one of the four movements. The Two Contemplations also found here are excellent, with one of the finest and most mysterious "Unanswered Question" on any recording to date.

Just a few words in my own not-so-humble opinion regarding this music...

All too often, music such as this by Ives gets thrown around as highly "experimental". Nothing could be further from the truth. To label this extraordinary music as experimental is belittling Ives' creative vision and heartfelt aesthetics. This music was not written as a "test" to see whether it passes or fails, but rather music that is simply visionary and unprecedented at the time at which it was written, and even by today's standards. Careful and repeated listens will reveal hidden themes, sometimes so subliminal that they escape even the most attentive of listeners. Also, Ives' unbelievably creative use of polyrhythms and interrelationships of multiple polyphonic lines and melodies shows this composer in complete mastery of his idiom. Some "scholars" today say that this was all thrown together in some haphhazard manner to see what would happen - that to me is completely unfair and unjustified. Use your OWN ears to make your own judgment here, folks.

As for sound, this recording is quite excellent (a 1986 recording), but to compare it to the best of 2007 digital recordings will begin to show its age slightly. Nonetheless, more than worthy.

In sum, if you are serious about Ives and want to hear one of the FINEST recordings ever made of his music, get this disc. Nothing is glossed over here and MTT and the Chicago Symphony need not apologize in their realization of Ives' craggy and sometimes downright rough-and-tumble music. If the incredibly transcendent ending of Thanksgiving and Forefather's Day doesn't convince you, then maybe 'ole Charlie isn't for you afterall...

Michael Tilson Thomas and James Sinclair should be considered when looking for any Ives recording, as they are arguably two of the finest conductors of Ives on the planet.

This recording is essential and amazing."

[chalkpie]

Ives got some beautiful song cycles too.

Absolutely!! If you are to own only one album of songs, make it the Jan DeGaetani/Gilbert Kalish "Charles Ives Songs" (1976, Nonesuch). His songs are incredible, and sometimes overlooked/unknown, but for my money one of the most original and daring cycles of songs ever written by an American. Here happens to be a few of my favorites called "Serenity" (1919) and "In the Mornin" (1929). Oh man - pure magic - memories of hearing this stuff!

[Facelift]

Funny story about how Cage criticized Ives because he was well off, and some how that affected his art conversely... Ives had a very interesting life outside music as well.

I've always maintained that Ives would be a great subject for a biopic. Nobody other than serious classical fans have any idea who he was, though, and that would probably affect the odds of such a film ever getting made.

[unclemeat]

Any love for the Universe Symphony ?

[Kavus Torabi]

Ok. I bought a box set a few years ago but never really listened as much as I should have.

I'm going back in.

[chalkpie]

Ok. I bought a box set a few years ago but never really listened as much as I should have.

I'm going back in.

What set do you have?

[chalkpie]

Any love for the Universe Symphony ?

I like (and own) the Johnny Reinhard realization of this piece, but ultimately I never know how much "Ives" I'm hearing. AFAIK, three people have attempted to finish the piece (Reinhard, Austin, and Porter) and apparently all three are very different, so I take this piece with many grains of salt (actually more like a truckload). Back in the day, I was an active member of the Charles Ives Yahoo group (remember those?), and Johnny Reinhard along with David Porter (who I think is no longer with us - and I mean permanently), both Ives scholars and experts, got into a *really* heated and fugly discussion on just how to interpret what Ives intended here. I think Porter was banned, but the "discussion" actually ended up asking more questions than finding answers, so ultimately I don't think we will ever know exactly how this piece is supposed to sound. Its very cool anyway, and was typical of Ives as conceptually the piece (in theory) was light-years ahead of what most composers were doing at the time. The Reinhard realization is very percussion based and was a precursor to the minimalism of Reich, Glass, etc. but with very complex and advanced polytempi events happening simultaneously.

http://www.stereosociety.com/ivesCDUniverse.shtml

[Kavus Torabi]

What set do you have?

Sony 'Essential Classics'. 3xCD set.
Chicago Symphony Orchestra.

[walt]

I delved into some of Ives' works about ten years ago,but really haven't returned to them often.Time to revisit.His experimentalism definitely helped to kick start American 20th century modern music.

From what i read about Ives the man, he seemed full of contradictions,a complicated man, and these traits fed into his music.All these disparate elements one hears in Ives' music....the sentimental ballads,the snippets of ragtime,country band marches,along with the most advanced compositional elements e.g., microtonality,tone rows, even noise.These were all grist for the mill,for Ives.

I'll play my Naxos cd's of String Quartets,and the Concord.That should hold me for today.

[Reid]

I like (and own) the Johnny Reinhard realization of this piece, but ultimately I never know how much "Ives" I'm hearing. AFAIK, three people have attempted to finish the piece (Reinhard, Austin, and Porter) and apparently all three are very different, so I take this piece with many grains of salt (actually more like a truckload). Back in the day, I was an active member of the Charles Ives Yahoo group (remember those?), and Johnny Reinhard along with David Porter (who I think is no longer with us - and I mean permanently), both Ives scholars and experts, got into a *really* heated and fugly discussion on just how to interpret what Ives intended here. I think Porter was banned, but the "discussion" actually ended up asking more questions than finding answers, so ultimately I don't think we will ever know exactly how this piece is supposed to sound. Its very cool anyway, and was typical of Ives as conceptually the piece (in theory) was light-years ahead of what most composers were doing at the time. The Reinhard realization is very percussion based and was a precursor to the minimalism of Reich, Glass, etc. but with very complex and advanced polytempi events happening simultaneously.

I bought the Reinhard recording a while back, and I feel the same way. It doesn't sound like Ives to my ears. And there is another version I listened to on YouTube that I found more to my liking, but it wasn't currently available. And it does sound quite a bit different. Will have to revisit this piece.

[mogrooves]

I've always maintained that Ives would be a great subject for a biopic.

There is one, though its title eludes me just now; came out in the 70s..

Any love for the Universe Symphony ?

Not really.

[profusion]

"The Unanswered Question" is one of those essential pieces of mysterious late-night listening that I used to love. Now, I go to bed at 9pm every night, so that's right out. LOL

[chalkpie]

"The Unanswered Question" is one of those essential pieces of mysterious late-night listening that I used to love. Now, I go to bed at 9pm every night, so that's right out. LOL

So listen to "Central Park in the Dark"

[neuroticdog]

I'm following this thread with great interest...just so everyone knows :P

best
Michael

[neuroticdog]

The only Ives I have is this one:

Ives: Symphony #3, Washington's Birthday, Two Contemplations on Naxos

I think Frankie mentioned it in his review upthread. I recently listened to it (twice in fact) about 3 or months ago having not heard it for several years. The reason I listened to it twice was it didn't click for me the first time...but the second time did the trick. IMHO it's not that great of a recording but the material totally transcends that.

I really need to make more room for him in my collection, so this thread is essential for me. Thanks for starting it!

best
Michael

[mogrooves]

I really need to make more room for him in my collection

I recommend Central Park In the Dark, to start.

[chalkpie]

I'm following this thread with great interest...just so everyone knows :P

best
Michael

I thought I smelled you

[chalkpie]

The only Ives I have is this one:

Ives: Symphony #3, Washington's Birthday, Two Contemplations on Naxos

I think Frankie mentioned it in his review upthread. I recently listened to it (twice in fact) about 3 or months ago having not heard it for several years. The reason I listened to it twice was it didn't click for me the first time...but the second time did the trick. IMHO it's not that great of a recording but the material totally transcends that.

I really need to make more room for him in my collection, so this thread is essential for me. Thanks for starting it!

best
Michael

Beautiful recording! It's probably my favorite third on most days. Also uses the updated Ives "Critical Edition" with the shadow lines (cool, spacey harmonies like a faint or faded watercolor). Its a tremendous performance once you know the piece. Sinclair did a bang up job on the entire recording. The third symphony was the first piece I really loved by Ives, maybe along with The Unanswered Question. I used to play the intro to that 1st movement on repeat mode - like the movie Groundhogs Day - listen to the first 30 seconds or so of the Third about 10 times - you'll be hooked. The ending of the last mvt (3rd) is also a favorite Ivesian moment - how f'ing gorgeous are the final moments? (If you don't get major goosebumps when the distant church bells ring at the end of this, then check your pulse please).

Great, great recording man.

[chalkpie]

http://drs.library.yale.edu/HLTransf...w=tp#titlepage

'A Descriptive Catalogue of The Music of Charles Ives' by James Sinclair

You guys wanna have your head ripped off with this stuff? That link above is Sinclair's Ives Catalog of EVERY piece in extreme detail such as performance history, revisions, notes, etc. The amount of detail is pretty staggering. Its impressive even for the folks who hate his music Click on the links under the table of contents and those works in the specific genres will show up. Really incredible stuff. This guy is an absolute dedicated fanatic, and a great guy to boot - he's answered many a private emails on this music from me. There is nobody on Earth that knows this music more than Sinclair.

[chalkpie]

Here is Sinclair's comments on the Third:

In his pencil full scores of each mvt, Ives crossed out some two dozen "shadow parts" (his term for brief solo instr passages played p or pp, intended to "shadow" more prominent parts). In several letters written to Bernard Herrmann and Lou Harrison during 1945-47, Ives expressed his intention to restore them, but the parts were omitted from both the Arrow 1947 and Associated 1964 edns. They are incl. in the Associated 1990 edn (see Singleton's critical commentary, pp. iv, 36-37).
For a reference to Ives's lost full score (1909) and a lost copyist's full score (1910 or 11?), made at Tams Copying Bureau, see Memos (pp. 55, 121) and the cover p. (f0560) for the complete work.
The work was given a special citation by the New York Music Critics' Circle after its first performances in 1946, and then awarded the Pulitzer Prize for musical composition on 5 May 1947. These were the only musical awards given to Ives or his compositions during his lifetime.
The story of Gustav Mahler's taking a score of the work back with him to Europe in 1911 originates in Ives's parenthetical remark in Memos (p. 121): "When this [symphony] was being copied in, I think, Tam's [i.e. Tams Copying] office, Gustav Mahler saw it and asked to have a copy--he was quite interested in it." A footnote in Cowell 1955 (p. 131) asserts that Mahler "told Ives he would play the Third Symphony in Europe. But Mahler died before this intention could be carried out, and this score...was lost." Presumably Ives related this to the Cowells, but there exists no corroborating evidence that Ives ever met Mahler or gave a score of this work c1911 to any conductor other than Walter Damrosch. See, however, Wooldridge 1974 (pp. 150-51) for an account of a supposed performance of this work under Mahler in Germany.

[chalkpie]

[Reginod]

Sorry, I can't be bothered. I don't listen to anything but Yes and Genesis.







OK, really, I'm playing the only Ives CD that I own. Symphonies #2 and 3, and General William Booth Enters Into Heaven. Dallas Symphony Orchestra and Andrew Litton. I also have the (rather meager) Collected Works Of Carl Ruggles, who as I understand it was something of a buddy of Ives at one time.

Seriously, you just go on posting about these composers. It's such a wealth of musical treasure. I'll be dead before I even begin to properly scratch the surface.

[walt]

Collected Works Of Carl Ruggles, .

[chalkpie]

Sorry, I can't be bothered. I don't listen to anything but Yes and Genesis.

OK, really, I'm playing the only Ives CD that I own. Symphonies #2 and 3, and General William Booth Enters Into Heaven. Dallas Symphony Orchestra and Andrew Litton. I also have the (rather meager) Collected Works Of Carl Ruggles, who as I understand it was something of a buddy of Ives at one time.

Seriously, you just go on posting about these composers. It's such a wealth of musical treasure. I'll be dead before I even begin to properly scratch the surface.

Ha! Yes and Genesis...I like it!

Sun-Treader! That is the only piece by Ruggles I know, and its only because its on the MTT/Boston Symphony album with Three Places. I guess they thought "Hey, most people hate Ives, so let's put another piece on it that people will also hate". Its a nice piece, although I hardly ever spin it. Maybe I'll do it today - thx for the reminder.

[unclemeat]

Oh yes, Carl Ruggles
Let's not forget Ruth Crawford-Seeger also. I have this collection :
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