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Thread: Which Artists and Songs Were The Most Pivotal to the Development of Progressive Rock?

  1. #101
    Member No Pride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER View Post
    I haven't heard all of Zappa's work, but everything I've heard has all had Rock Drum beats. To say he isn't or more importantly *wasn't* Prog is just stupid... unless one uses Prog in place of Symph. FZ wasn't Symph, but he was *always* progressive and almost always Rock. To me, Prog is short for progressive Rock and FZ has always been that, at least on the 10 or so albums I've heard of his.
    I'm not sure what "rock drum beats" exactly means to you, but Frank always employed odd and/or shifting meters as well as more standardized rock rhythms. And he was more "symph" than most symph-prog bands because he used real orchestral instruments. Just for one out of many, many examples, this short ditty has all of that going on... and the album came out in '68 (have fun counting ):



    But yeah, plenty of his music qualifies as prog!

    Last edited by No Pride; 06-30-2015 at 11:32 AM.

  2. #102
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    I've always considered Uncle Frank to be progressive but not necessarily "Prog." He developed a sui generis musical idiolect that is to rock what Ellington's is to jazz. Like Ellington, he was his own academy.
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    I've always considered Uncle Frank to be progressive but not necessarily "Prog." He developed a sui generis musical idiolect that is to rock what Ellington's is to jazz. Like Ellington, he was his own academy.
    Nothing to dispute there!

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    I'm not sure what "rock drum beats" exactly means to you
    From what LP has said in the past, he means square eighths, leading kick-drum, and a heavy backbeat, as opposed to the swung eighths, kick for punctuation, and lighter backbeat of jazz. And his definition of rock includes funk + soul. That said, I'm not sure where he places earlier rock drummers who tended to swing (if only a little), those rock or funk tunes with swung eighths, or that New Orleans feel somewhere in-between square, swing, and clave.

    Me, I don't think it's an either-or situation - there's a whole lot of gray areas, like the New Orleans feel, and they're often the most interesting.

  5. #105
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    I suspect Frank Zappa took inspiration from Charles Ives,not just in the sense of Ives' American can-do experimentalism,but also in the compositional clashes of material that Ives and Zappa reveled in.With Ives, one hears bits of ragtime, sentimental ballads,country band marches getting equal time with "loftier" compositional materials.
    It seemed that for Ives, as with Zappa,high minded sentiments rubbed shoulders( in musical terms) with vulgar skits and musical jokes.Zappa and Ives,imo, made "serious" music that wasn't afraid to laugh at itself.

    I seem to recall a journalist asking Zappa why his music contained such jarring juxtapositions of seriousness and lumpen crudeness,and (if memory serves) Frank opined that this was the way the universe worked(as he saw it).He said people carry and vent these contrasting moods/thoughts/sentiments in their everyday existence,and he(Zappa) was merely giving musical life to them.

    Jimmy Carl Black, in his autobiography,mentioned that Zappa played records of Indian classical music for The Mothers, and also had them play compositions in the form of ragas,at least in rehearsal.I wonder if any of these ever made it to a finished,recorded form.
    "please do not understand me too quickly"-andre gide

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    I've always considered Uncle Frank to be progressive but not necessarily "Prog." He developed a sui generis musical idiolect that is to rock what Ellington's is to jazz. Like Ellington, he was his own academy.
    About as succinct and definitive a comment on Frank Zappa I've seen.

  7. #107
    ^^ And, he was considered the second-most prolific composer of the 20th Century, next to The Duke.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  8. #108
    Take a song like, "Andy." That has to have the most time signature changes per minute of anything I've ever heard. I actually almost started a thread about it.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  9. #109
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    I'm not sure what "rock drum beats" exactly means to you
    snare hits on the upbeat

    and thank you for supporting my point about FZ being one of the earliest Prog artists
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  10. #110
    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baribrotzer View Post
    From what LP has said in the past, he means square eighths, leading kick-drum, and a heavy backbeat, as opposed to the swung eighths, kick for punctuation, and lighter backbeat of jazz. And his definition of rock includes funk + soul. That said, I'm not sure where he places earlier rock drummers who tended to swing (if only a little), those rock or funk tunes with swung eighths
    you mostly got it right... except 'swung eighths' as in Blues Rock are also Rock beats
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

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