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Thread: "Spectral Mornings 2015" E.P. - Hackett/Beggs/Reed/Booth/D'Virgilio

  1. #51
    Given that Calling All Stations had been largely written/recorded before they hired a singer, I have to agree that it's unlikely that hiring Longdon or Gilbert or anyone else would've made a significant difference to the Genesis story.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Jondon4 View Post
    I quite disagree. Besides Longdon currently having one of the best voices in Prog., he plays something like 9 instruments and his writing skills are superb. His contributions to Big Big Train helped propel their English Electric albums to critical acclaim. Listen to Uncle Jack, Hedgerow, Judas Unrepentant (think Robbery, Assault and Battery), or even Swan Hunter and tell me they wouldn't have been great Genesis songs with Banks and Rutherford's influence. At the very least they would have put out a better album than Congo. No, I'm sorry, Genesis really blew it when they went with Wilson instead of Longdon. On the other hand, his considerable talents have certainly put BBT on the recording map and with any luck we'll hear much more of him in their future efforts. On the other hand, what has Ray Wilson done other than help bury Genesis. I guess that sounds harsh. Truthfully, they did it to themselves.
    Wasn't Calling All Stations pretty all written before they got a singer so Wilson only had minimal input. We'll never really know what he could have added to the mix as we never got a follow up album. I quite like his solo material and think, provided the other two let him contribute, they could have produced a good 2nd album. But I also think it would still have failed; as someone else stated Genesis were becoming regarded by many as Phil Collins side project so without him you lose a lot of listeners.

  3. #53
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jondon4 View Post
    Yet We Can't Dance was one of their best sellling albums and topped the charts for 61 weeks. Calling All Stations barely made the top 40. I understand that We Can't Dance was hardly a breakthru prog album although I still find songs like Driving the Last Spike and Dreaming While You Sleep among my favorites, but I can't help but believe that David's influence would have reinvigorated their song writing above the mediocrity that was Calling All Stations. One only has to listen to Big Big Train's last albums with David's influence to hear that.
    You're making my point for me. Phil was the key, and he was gone. Many Prog fans have blinders on, and can't accept that the world ain't in love with this type of music. If Longdon was the ticket to commercial succes, Big Big Train would be huge now. Ask someone on the street if they like Big Big Train. They'll ask you why you're stuttering.

  4. #54
    I'm not convinced that even with Collins the situation would've been all that much better. Dance Into the Light didn't exactly burn up the sales chart either. The music scene had changed a lot from 1991 to 1996/1997, and a band still very rooted in an 80s sound just wasn't going to gather much attention.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    The story of Kevin Gilbert and Genesis that I read, was that Mike and Tony had seen or heard the 1994 20th anniversary tribute that he and Giraffe did for the Lamb. KG's manager was on his way to deliver the audition request to Kevin, when he discovered Kevin having passed away. One of the saddest events in the history of prog or music in general. NDV who played on the Lamb tribute, did play drums on some of the tracks on Calling All Stations.
    Wow, if it really went down that way, terrible!

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    You're making my point for me. Phil was the key, and he was gone. Many Prog fans have blinders on, and can't accept that the world ain't in love with this type of music. If Longdon was the ticket to commercial succes, Big Big Train would be huge now. Ask someone on the street if they like Big Big Train. They'll ask you why you're stuttering.
    Well BBT just sold out three gigs in days and had the best selling prog album for 2013. I can't think of any other prog group that can match that. In fact, can you name any prog group that is "huge." I'm not talking about commercial success. I was talking about artistic success. I'd say as prog music goes their one of the bright lights. And I hardly think Phil was the key to Genesis' success. In fact, most of the comments on this site suggest he was the reason for Genesis' demise. I disagree but you said it yourself. Genesis was living in the past and obviously Longdon is part of the future. Sorry you can't hear that.

  7. #57
    I love the new version of Spectral Mornings. Very tasteful.
    Regarding David Longdon, I really love what he's brought to BBT in the songwriting department.
    Regarding David Longdon and Genesis, I would have loved to hear something from them. Longdon's voice would really have done all the previous material justice. But I agree with the people who said it wouldn't have made a huge difference in terms of commercial success. The market had changed and Calling All Stations sounded dated at the time of its release. The band would probably have been laid to rest soon after.
    That being said, I would have really loved to hear an album with a real songwriting partnership between Banks/Rutherford/Longdon or Banks/Rutherford/Wilson. I still feel they could have done something interesting with Wilson if they had gone beyond the "safe" formula of Calling All Stations. Longdon could have provided them with a more obvious connection to their prog roots (but did they really want that - especially Rutherford ?).

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotron View Post
    Steve's projects are truly a breath of fresh air. What a charged up fellow he seems to be.
    This isn't really a Steve project, it's a Rob Reed project, but fittingly Steve added the signature solo.

    I was not sure how to file this on my iTunes though, the database brings it up as being a Nick Beggs project! I made it a Steve Hackett one though, as it's his wonderful composition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interstellar View Post
    I love the new version of Spectral Mornings. Very tasteful.
    Regarding David Longdon, I really love what he's brought to BBT in the songwriting department.
    Regarding David Longdon and Genesis, I would have loved to hear something from them. Longdon's voice would really have done all the previous material justice. But I agree with the people who said it wouldn't have made a huge difference in terms of commercial success. The market had changed and Calling All Stations sounded dated at the time of its release. The band would probably have been laid to rest soon after.
    That being said, I would have really loved to hear an album with a real songwriting partnership between Banks/Rutherford/Longdon or Banks/Rutherford/Wilson. I still feel they could have done something interesting with Wilson if they had gone beyond the "safe" formula of Calling All Stations. Longdon could have provided them with a more obvious connection to their prog roots (but did they really want that - especially Rutherford ?).
    Wilson and Genesis did a formula not that different than Mike and the Mechanics, but Wilson's voice is not bad, but not pop material. Longdon can do prog and pop which would have made them successful in one way or the other. Hackett and Rutherford's concern that Longdon would be compared to Collins was lame. They f**ked up, got too much into the politics of it and lost focus on the music.

  10. #60
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jondon4 View Post
    Well BBT just sold out three gigs in days and had the best selling prog album for 2013. I can't think of any other prog group that can match that. In fact, can you name any prog group that is "huge."
    Ooooo. That's like being voted "Tallest Midget," or "Skinniest Kid at Fat Camp." Again, you're making my point for me. For their history to have been changed, CAS (or whatever came in it's place,) would have had to be a successful seller, not a bust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jondon4 View Post
    I'm not talking about commercial success. I was talking about artistic success. I'd say as prog music goes their one of the bright lights.
    No, you said, "Can you imagine how the history of Genesis might have changed had they hired Longdon instead of Ray Wilson after Phil Collins left?" The history of Genesis looks something like this: Wide eyed schoolboys with big dreams > fledgling musicians looking to get signed > cult band > band gaining recognition, especially for their live show > mega commercially successful band that helped provide the soundtrack for a decade > band unable to replicate earlier success > retired band. Having Longdon instead of Wilson would not have changed that trajectory one iota. It would have resulted in an album that may have been more palatable to many here, myself included, but that is a meaningless drop in the bucket.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jondon4 View Post
    And I hardly think Phil was the key to Genesis' success.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jondon4 View Post
    In fact, most of the comments on this site suggest he was the reason for Genesis' demise. I disagree but you said it yourself. Genesis was living in the past and obviously Longdon is part of the future. Sorry you can't hear that.
    Well, that's why I like coming to PE. I have issues, and I know that if I can't get help, I can at least get sympathy.

  11. #61
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    They would have died a commercial death with either singer and that, or similar material. Longdon would have made no appreciable difference, and things would've continued largely in the manner that they did. Scott is right.
    Quote Originally Posted by dpt3 View Post
    Given that Calling All Stations had been largely written/recorded before they hired a singer, I have to agree that it's unlikely that hiring Longdon or Gilbert or anyone else would've made a significant difference to the Genesis story.
    Quote Originally Posted by whatwherewhywhen View Post
    Wasn't Calling All Stations pretty all written before they got a singer so Wilson only had minimal input.
    Exactly.

    My statement was more about Mike and Tony than it was about Mr. Longdon. His presence wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    Exactly.

    My statement was more about Mike and Tony than it was about Mr. Longdon. His presence wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever.
    And my statement was more about the recording and singing. It was uninspired. Even killer material can sound awful with the wrong singer and Ray Wilson was clearly the wrong singer. At least Longdon might have brought some energy to what were clearly musicians who were merely going through the motions. We'll never know, of course, but anything would have been better than what became their ignominious demise.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    Ooooo. That's like being voted "Tallest Midget," or "Skinniest Kid at Fat Camp." Again, you're making my point for me. For their history to have been changed, CAS (or whatever came in it's place,) would have had to be a successful seller, not a bust.



    No, you said, "Can you imagine how the history of Genesis might have changed had they hired Longdon instead of Ray Wilson after Phil Collins left?" The history of Genesis looks something like this: Wide eyed schoolboys with big dreams > fledgling musicians looking to get signed > cult band > band gaining recognition, especially for their live show > mega commercially successful band that helped provide the soundtrack for a decade > band unable to replicate earlier success > retired band. Having Longdon instead of Wilson would not have changed that trajectory one iota. It would have resulted in an album that may have been more palatable to many here, myself included, but that is a meaningless drop in the bucket.

    Well, that's why I like coming to PE. I have issues, and I know that if I can't get help, I can at least get sympathy.
    Considering Calling all Stations was hardly their best effort yet was their biggest seller suggests they could have put out an album of advertising jingles and it still would have been a commercial success. But I wasn't talking about commercial success, as I said before, but artistic success. Few prog groups these days experience commercial success yet this site lauds those few who break thru artistically regardless. But it sounds as if no matter what they would have done you still wouldn't have liked it. To each his/her own.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jondon4 View Post
    Considering Calling all Stations was hardly their best effort yet was their biggest seller suggests they could have put out an album of advertising jingles and it still would have been a commercial success.
    "was their biggest seller"???? In the USA, it didn't crack 120K if I recall correctly, and sales were equally soft elsewhere around the world. Pretty sure "Invisible Touch" was their biggest seller.

  15. #65
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jondon4 View Post
    And my statement was more about the recording and singing. It was uninspired. Even killer material can sound awful with the wrong singer and Ray Wilson was clearly the wrong singer.
    Yeah, we're just not going to agree here. I thought Wilson was pretty good. I think Longdon would have done a very good job, too. I just don't think Wilson was the problem here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jondon4 View Post
    At least Longdon might have brought some energy to what were clearly musicians who were merely going through the motions. We'll never know, of course, but anything would have been better than what became their ignominious demise.
    I dunno. Listening to what Rutherford has done since doesn't make me feel like we were going to get anything better.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  16. #66
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jondon4 View Post
    Considering Calling all Stations was hardly their best effort yet was their biggest seller suggests they could have put out an album of advertising jingles and it still would have been a commercial success. But I wasn't talking about commercial success, as I said before, but artistic success. Few prog groups these days experience commercial success yet this site lauds those few who break thru artistically regardless. But it sounds as if no matter what they would have done you still wouldn't have liked it. To each his/her own.
    I don't have sales figures at hand, but if CAS was their biggest seller, trust me, they would have made more albums. I do remember that their scheduled concert at Ohio Stadium in Columbus on the CAS tour was canceled due to poor ticket sales.

    "History" is a Big Picture word. If you had been clear that you were talking small picture / personal likes, I wouldn't have commented on your post, and I doubt Scott and the others would have either.

    I'm not sure how you come to your last conclusion there, based on what I've posted, so probably best to leave off right here.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I don't have sales figures at hand, but if CAS was their biggest seller, trust me, they would have made more albums. I do remember that their scheduled concert at Ohio Stadium in Columbus on the CAS tour was canceled due to poor ticket sales.
    Seems kinda obvious, right?
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  18. #68
    I think that, artistically speaking, Calling All Stations was their strongest album overall post-Duke, and I think Wilson does a fine job on it. And I definitely don't see that hiring Longdon would have fixed the problems that the album does have (the fadeouts, typical Genesis bad choices to leave off some of the best songs).

    Anyway, any Genesis fans not familiar with Big Big Train/Longdon should check out this groovy cover of Ant Phillips's "Master of Time":


  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2steves View Post
    Oh yeah that would be great---if only Tony were not a bitter egomaniac lol
    Tony's issues have always been quite the opposite.

    By the way, I recently watched a concert from the CAS tour with Ray singing a lot of the older tracks. I personally prefer his voice to Phil's. He brings a warmth that Phil lacked, even though Phil is a very good singer.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I don't have sales figures at hand, but if CAS was their biggest seller, trust me, they would have made more albums. I do remember that their scheduled concert at Ohio Stadium in Columbus on the CAS tour was canceled due to poor ticket sales.

    "History" is a Big Picture word. If you had been clear that you were talking small picture / personal likes, I wouldn't have commented on your post, and I doubt Scott and the others would have either.

    I'm not sure how you come to your last conclusion there, based on what I've posted, so probably best to leave off right here.
    Actually I meant We Can't Dance was their biggest seller. (It was late at night when I wrote it and clearly wasn't thinking) You're right about Calling All Stations being a bust. I was trying to point out that though WCD was more a pop album than a prog album, they still had a huge fan base. Had they followed with something less listless and uninspired it would have sold well. Instead they went with a new singer and music that radically changed their sound in a way that alienated those fans.

  21. #71
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    CAS was a bit of an experiment I think. Ray's huskier voice fit the darker mood of those tracks like a glove. The experiment was, 'Will this work for the fans?' It worked for a few, but most didn't relate to the mood. Personally I thought it was a pretty solid album. I liked it quite a lot better than their previous 3 albums. But the content wasn't for everyone. I think it was worth a try, and with music tastes and changing industries, one never knows until they try. The music was definitely not uninspired, but if one doesn't relate to it or catch the mood, it may sound that way.

  22. #72
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    CAS was a bit of an experiment I think. Ray's huskier voice fit the darker mood of those tracks like a glove. The experiment was, 'Will this work for the fans?' It worked for a few, but most didn't relate to the mood. Personally I thought it was a pretty solid album. I liked it quite a lot better than their previous 3 albums. But the content wasn't for everyone. I think it was worth a try, and with music tastes and changing industries, one never knows until they try. The music was definitely not uninspired, but if one doesn't relate to it or catch the mood, it may sound that way.
    I still think that it had the chance to be a very good album if they had actually finished it (cleaned-up the fade-outs, etc.).
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    I still think that it had the chance to be a very good album if they had actually finished it (cleaned-up the fade-outs, etc.).
    Yeah, don't know why all but one song faded out. That's just wierd to me. And the one that didn't fade out (The Dividing Line) sounded unfinished-live it was incredible with Rutherford and they guy from Clannad trading solos. Its the only time I've ever seen Rutherford rock out with guitar solos-but the studio version lacked something to me. I'm okay with the fade out in 'Run Out of Time' (which didn't make the album) because its such a moody song, and 'One Man's Fool', but the title track faded out earlier than it should have (again, live was much better) as did 'Congo'.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    Tony's issues have always been quite the opposite.

    By the way, I recently watched a concert from the CAS tour with Ray singing a lot of the older tracks. I personally prefer his voice to Phil's. He brings a warmth that Phil lacked, even though Phil is a very good singer.
    Well I disagree with everything you say^--it's fine--we all have our taste. And Ray's singing of the classics isn't very appealing to me at all.
    Tony has a huge ego--from everything I have read ---and he has the right to have it---he's a brilliant keyboardist and composer. I don't like the way he speaks of Hackett and has treated him--always minimizing his contribution to the band. The greatest most enduring music Genesis put out was when Hackett was in the band.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2steves View Post
    Well I disagree with everything you say^--it's fine--we all have our taste. And Ray's singing of the classics isn't very appealing to me at all.
    Tony has a huge ego--from everything I have read ---and he has the right to have it---he's a brilliant keyboardist and composer. I don't like the way he speaks of Hackett and has treated him--always minimizing his contribution to the band. The greatest most enduring music Genesis put out was when Hackett was in the band.
    I agree that any badgering of Hackett or his contribution is inexcusable-and I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence. As a singer, I like Ray more than Phil and less than Peter but that's just me.

    As to Tony's ego, it has always been stated (and this has been in older interviews and such) that he was very self-conscious, even shy, and he is well aware of what a poor picture he is on stage, with no stage personality. He has been abrasive at times (but he's also reported to be a very nice guy on many an occasion) but I don't know that ego has anything to do with this. Now, if he's developed an ego in recent years is not out of the question I suppose.

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