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Thread: Genesis's Duke-35 years on!

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by bp View Post
    I always found Duke to be a poor sounding piece of vinyl (53 minutes is way too long for a single album). The CD release was certainly an improvement sonically (as the low frequencies were rolled off to make the length possible. The song sequencing from the vinyl still hurt the record. I remember someone talking of an original song order buy I never found out what it was to be.
    .
    Well, we know that Behind The Lines/Duchess/Guide Vocal, Turn It On Again, and Duke's Travel's/Duke's End were all part of one big suite, which was originally intended to take up an entire LP side. But concerned that people would compare it to Supper's Ready, and also probably because of the "we did that already" thing, they decided to break the suite up into individual songs.

    I'm not sure what else was ever talked about being on the album at whichever stage. I remember suggesting once that maybe someone figured out that Turn It On Again was an obvious single, and that was why they split the suite up, so that they could stick Turn It On Again at the start of the LP side. But I've also heard it said that at the time the decision was made to split up the suite, Turn It On Again wasn't a full blown song like it we've come to know. That therefore makes me wonder what the other parts of the suite sounded like during it's initial formation. Would love to hear more album demos and rehearsal tapes, as they seem to be one of those bands where a lot of these songs go through a period of evolution before we get to hear them on the final release.

  2. #52
    Member 2steves's Avatar
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    I have the suite on my iphone as a suite---I think it works better than the way the songs are laid out----I don't see how it could be compared to Suppers Ready a song about the end of the world---but I do like the suite a lot---although I sort of think the finale---as much as I like it---sounds like the finale of a Broadway show hehe. Suppers Ready ending sounds like an amazing prog song.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by 2steves View Post
    I have the suite on my iphone as a suite---I think it works better than the way the songs are laid out----I don't see how it could be compared to Suppers Ready a song about the end of the world---but I do like the suite a lot---although I sort of think the finale---as much as I like it---sounds like the finale of a Broadway show hehe. Suppers Ready ending sounds like an amazing prog song.
    Actually, Supper's Ready is about the struggle between good and evil, not so much "the end of the world" specifically, though it does end with the Second Coming allusion. Lover's Leap is actually about Peter's first wife's possession (well, he says she was possessed, who knows what actually happened, but that was apparently what sparked off the whole idea for the piece).

    I think the Genesis guys (or someone influential in their camp, either Tony Smith or maybe Ahmet Ertegun or someone like that) are said to have felt that the Duke suite, due to it's length, would have been compared to Supper's Ready. Yeah, the musical content is very different, but I think the perception within the Genesis camp was that people would compare the two pieces, simply because they were both side long suites (23 minutes is side length, regardless of whether or not you shoehorn a 2 minute acoustic guitar piece onto the same LP side).

    I sort of see the point about how Duke's End does sort of feel like a "showtune" or something, but I love the way they hang on that one chord change, and the bass pedals come in playing that descending line. That's sounds pretty cool, I always thought. And I still love Mike's guitar work on the piece.

    I think another thing that's interesting about the Duke suite is, when they played it live, Mike had to (at least in theory) use four different instruments. He played his big Shergold doubleneck on Behind The Lines (even though he never touches the guitar neck, he just plays bass live), then switches to his sunburst Strat for Duchess/Guide Vocal/Turn It On Again, then swaps over to a cream colored Strat which had the hex pickup for the ARP Avatar guitar synth for Duke's Travels, then finally plays an Ibanez Artist on Duke's End.

    Given that Duke's End is largely a reprise of the first part of Behind The Lines, it seems to me like it would have made more sense for Mike to play guitar on both songs, since it would have lightened the load they tossed on Darryl (though I think Darryl said in one interview, that for each tour, they'd give him tapes of the songs that wanted him to learn, and he'd learn everything, then he and Mike would work out who was doing what in rehearsal), plus it would have done away with the necessity of playing the doubleneck for a song that didn't really need it (actually, bringing a conventional single bass on tour would have had the same effect, but I think Mike only started doing that on the next tour, apart from the Hagstrom 8 string he played on I Know What I Like on the W&W tour). Apart from that, I wonder if it was really necessary for him to play three different guitars on the rest of the suite. Like, did the individual songs require different guitar tunings or what?

  4. #54
    Interesting thread. I thought that Cul De Sac was a part of the suite. In fact I initially thought that the whole album was more or less a big suite. The fact that the middle tracks were sandwiched between the two major parts of the suite, with Turn it On at the centre, led me to believe that.

  5. #55
    WeatherWiseCDC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interstellar View Post
    Interesting thread. I thought that Cul De Sac was a part of the suite. In fact I initially thought that the whole album was more or less a big suite. The fact that the middle tracks were sandwiched between the two major parts of the suite, with Turn it On at the centre, led me to believe that.
    Well, the tracks in the live suite all share a common theme with their lyrics. That said, nobody's ever really considered Duke to be a concept album. There are a lot of songs in the middle that don't really have much to do with the theme, which kind of breaks that thematic unity.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by WeatherWiseCDC View Post
    Well, the tracks in the live suite all share a common theme with their lyrics. That said, nobody's ever really considered Duke to be a concept album. There are a lot of songs in the middle that don't really have much to do with the theme, which kind of breaks that thematic unity.
    That is indeed what I've finally understood. The misunderstanding partly originated from a sense of unity in the whole record, that was reinforced by the title and the artwork (which I love). I could do without one or two of the ballads though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interstellar View Post
    That is indeed what I've finally understood. The misunderstanding partly originated from a sense of unity in the whole record, that was reinforced by the title and the artwork (which I love). I could do without one or two of the ballads though.
    I think Duke was the first Genesis album where I found the artwork lame. The ATTWT cover wasn't that great, but at least it was somewhat intriguing trying to figure out what was going on. From Duke onwards, the covers seem to me to be pointless,until you get to Calling All Stations where at least it's a photo that does not resemble a drawing by a 3-year-old.

    Come to think of it, that's another thing I disliked about the late 1970's and the 1980's. Along with the rejection of the 1970s progressive sound with the advent of punk and new wave, many musicians seemed to reject the notion of doing anything interesting or attractive with the album cover art. They seemed to be trying to prove their street cred by using sloppy black and white photos or minimalist designs, some of them looking as though they were hand drawn in five minutes. Exhibit A: Genesis. Exhibit B: Yes. Exhibit C: Most of the New Wave and synth-pop bands.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    I think Duke was the first Genesis album where I found the artwork lame. The ATTWT cover wasn't that great, but at least it was somewhat intriguing trying to figure out what was going on. From Duke onwards, the covers seem to me to be pointless,until you get to Calling All Stations where at least it's a photo that does not resemble a drawing by a 3-year-old.
    I understand your perception of the evolution of cover arts. I still like some minimalist covers from that era though. In the case of Duke, I find the artwork intriguing and I feel it has a poetic quality (which I don't find in other Genesis artworks of the 80's).

  9. #59
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    I thought it was silly for Genesis not to do a side long suite because they'd 'done it before'. Simply because they only did it once, and an album of all songs they'd done before too. Every time except once! Although I do agree that it could have made the sides uneven. If you put 'Evidence of Autumn', 'Heathaze' and 'Cul-De-Sac', and maybe 'Man of our Times' on one side, that's some really good music, but they'd probably need to throw in a group piece, largely instrumental I think, in the middle of the side to even it out.

    Agree the cover sucks. 'ATTW3' is an intriguing cover on the other hand, and the night sky goes just right with the music, providing a perfect backdrop for the printed lyrics. They generally were not smart about their covers in my opinion.

  10. #60
    Member -=RTFR666=-'s Avatar
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    The original intent for Duke's structure was laid out in Armando Gallo's bio:

    "1980: On the 12th November Genesis entered Polar Sound Studios in Stockholm to record six songs and a twenty five minute piece of music which will form the new album, scheduled for release in March 1980."
    -=Will you stand by me against the cold night, or are you afraid of the ice?=-

  11. #61
    Member bill g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    Lover's Leap is actually about Peter's first wife's possession (well, he says she was possessed, who knows what actually happened, but that was apparently what sparked off the whole idea for the piece).
    This is actually a very common misunderstanding among us husbands. I think Peter in time came to realize, as have I, that although it appears very much like a 'possession', it is actually something called 'hormones'.

  12. #62
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeatherWiseCDC View Post
    Well, the tracks in the live suite all share a common theme with their lyrics. That said, nobody's ever really considered Duke to be a concept album. There are a lot of songs in the middle that don't really have much to do with the theme, which kind of breaks that thematic unity.
    Well the artwork certainly seemed to hint as a concept album with a suite or two. In some ways, the method of the artwork reminded me of ATTOT's presentation, though the latter (which is the earlier) was clearly no concept

    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    I think Duke was the first Genesis album where I found the artwork lame. The ATTWT cover wasn't that great, but at least it was somewhat intriguing trying to figure out what was going on. From Duke onwards, the covers seem to me to be pointless,until you get to Calling All Stations where at least it's a photo that does not resemble a drawing by a 3-year-old.
    surely that 5-yo old artwork was a big drawback... even a bit repulsive at the time... I've grown to appreciate it a bit over the years

    Quote Originally Posted by bill g View Post
    Agree the cover sucks. 'ATTW3' is an intriguing cover on the other hand, and the night sky goes just right with the music, providing a perfect backdrop for the printed lyrics. They generally were not smart about their covers in my opinion.
    Yup, ATTWT was a WTF artwork for me at first, but the gloomy skies does fit perfectly some of the music inside. I've totally grown to accept it through the decades.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    surely that 5-yo old artwork was a big drawback... even a bit repulsive at the time... I've grown to appreciate it a bit over the years
    Surely you mean artwork reminiscent of what a 5-yo would do. Because the artist was definitely not a child:

    The artwork was produced by French artist Lionel Koechlin. Koechlin was born in Paris, France, in 1948. After studying art, he began to illustrate for magazines and newspapers, cinema posters, publicity campaigns, and childrens books. In 1973 he published his first book and since then he has created more than 40 titles for children and young people. His cartoons have been adapted in several TV stations in France.
    I thought it was pretty refreshing that they employed an illustrator not commonly associated with progressive music, or even rock music for that matter. It certainly made for an evocative and memorable sleeve.
    I'm holding out for the Wilson-mixed 5.1 super-duper walletbuster special anniversary extra adjectives edition.

  14. #64
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    I rather like the Duke sleeve... certainly much more than the ones that followed.
    Interviewer of reprobate ne'er-do-well musicians of the long-haired rock n' roll persuasion at: www.velvetthunder.co.uk and former scribe at Classic Rock Society. Only vaguely aware of anything other than music.

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  15. #65
    Member 2steves's Avatar
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    Ah Guitar Geek---the end of the world and the second coming is the same thing---To me Suppers Ready is about the end of the world---good vs evil and all---Gabriel revisited this theme in Here Comes the Flood.

  16. #66
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    I rather like the Duke sleeve... certainly much more than the ones that followed.
    Agreed. Their covers just got progressively worse.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  17. #67
    Member since March 2004 mozo-pg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    Agreed. Their covers just got progressively worse.
    ...so did the music.

  18. #68
    I thought Duke (the cover) was juvenile but in a charming way. I liked it. Everything since then was... well, bad. Well, ABACAB I'm just "meh" on I suppose. Don't get me started on Yes covers post Drama. They make anything Genesis did look like fine art. Rush was the one classic band that kept doing cool covers pretty consistently through the 80s and beyond... Even A SHow Of Hands was cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post
    I Rush was the one classic band that kept doing cool covers pretty consistently through the 80s and beyond... Even A SHow Of Hands was cool.
    I'm not that fond of Rush, but they did some great album covers. The Moving Pictures cover contains at least three visual puns related to the title.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    I'm not that fond of Rush, but they did some great album covers. The Moving Pictures cover contains at least three visual puns related to the title.
    I always liked that one of the paintings was one of those "dogs playing poker" deals.

  21. #71
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulrus View Post
    Surely you mean artwork reminiscent of what a 5-yo would do. Because the artist was definitely not a child:
    yup... I was echoing someone who "pretended" it was no better than if it had been done by a 3 yo, though
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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    I like the minimalist cover of this much more than the one for ATTWT. The eponymous album's cover is a bit nondescript as well.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by -=RTFR666=- View Post
    The original intent for Duke's structure was laid out in Armando Gallo's bio:

    "1980: On the 12th November Genesis entered Polar Sound Studios in Stockholm to record six songs and a twenty five minute piece of music which will form the new album, scheduled for release in March 1980."
    Yeah I remember reading that and was super excited.. Wouldn't say Duke was a let down.. In fact like many the opening songs and finish of the album was great.. Never have linked up the songs that would have made up the side long epic other than perhaps what I've heard from live recordings.. where they pull it off pretty well..

  24. #74
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    I like the art, I like the music a lot. Duke is probably the best example of 70s Prog successfully assimilating into the dreaded 80s (although some may claim Abacab deserves this dubious honor). The vinyl should have been shorter, though, cuz it always sounded thin to me. Nick Davis' 2007 remix was a huge disappointment to me in this regard; I'd love it to sound natural & warm again, but I'm sure they'll never bother to re-remix it.

  25. #75
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    ^Genesis albums certainly gave the fans value for money, as the single albums then were nearly an hour in length. But that did mean that the quality of the sound on the records tended to suffer.

    The 5.1 mixes were one thing but I didn't like the stereo remixes at all either. An absolute travesty that these are the default versions now. Put the remixed 'Behind The Lines' on and it will take your head off as it's so loud, not good.

    They should get the original mixes out again, properly remastered.

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