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Thread: Free Salamander Exhibit

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by NogbadTheBad View Post
    Most of these bands only realize they have a prog audience, in addition to their regular younger crowd, after they've been out touring and releasing albums. It's a byproduct of their approach rather than a direct result. Very sensible too.
    Which strikes essentially at the heart of the fundamental logic behind a generic "self-image" within the idiom; namely that somehow "prog" is something you mainly "become" once you as artist have decided to adopt that identity through conscious adherence to a given set of influences, antics, values, reservations and "realizations" - and thus aschewing the fact that practically none of the initial progressive bands saw an objective or a motive in "being prog".

    Thank goodness for such acts; TYS, FSE, Kayo Dot, Bent Knee, you name it.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  2. #52
    Member The Czar's Avatar
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    The reason I said I would rather listen to Motley Crue right now, is because I just discovered the album where Vince Neil does not sing on. I'm more in that mood to listen to music right now. I have seen Sleepytime gorilla Museum 5 times and I listened to idiot flesh since 1995. I listened to about the first 20 minutes of free salamander exhibit and it really didn't grab me. I was at a record store today and I held it in my hand and decided I have to listen to it a few more times online to see if I even care anymore. My musical tastes change and they go all over the place buying this album right now would be just out of habit. And I was the person who pointed out that I thought it was interesting that nobody was complaining about the harsh vocals, because on Opeth threads that's all people on this website talk about is when he would growl and how they hated it. I'm totally fine with harsh vocals growled vocals, whatever... as long as the vocals are good.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Czar View Post
    The reason I said I would rather listen to Motley Crue right now, is because I just discovered the album where Vince Neil does not sing on. I'm more in that mood to listen to music right now. I have seen Sleepytime gorilla Museum 5 times and I listened to idiot flesh since 1995. I listened to about the first 20 minutes of free salamander exhibit and it really didn't grab me. I was at a record store today and I held it in my hand and decided I have to listen to it a few more times online to see if I even care anymore. My musical tastes change and they go all over the place buying this album right now would be just out of habit. And I was the person who pointed out that I thought it was interesting that nobody was complaining about the harsh vocals, because on Opeth threads that's all people on this website talk about is when he would growl and how they hated it. I'm totally fine with harsh vocals growled vocals, whatever... as long as the vocals are good.
    Gotcha. Are you telling me, that Motley Crue has an instrumental album?!?! Or is it just a different singer?

    neil

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by boilk View Post
    Gotcha. Are you telling me, that Motley Crue has an instrumental album?!?! Or is it just a different singer?

    neil
    John Corabi from The Scream...they should have called the band something else though.

  5. #55
    You know, I got Too Fast For Love on its week of release back in '83, and although merely 12 years of age I found it unbearably bad. I still consider them one of the single worst attempts at a "band" I ever heard; I mean, at least the lacklustre abilities of the Shaggs still resultet in a captivating display of mental creativity. The Mötleys had nothing; no organic musical power, no sense of style, no frame of artistic imagination, no historical insight as to the guild of their choice. Absolute utter rubbish which effectively barred me from accepting the notion of "contextualized cliché" which allegedly rendered the cheapness of black metal or SlipKnot or Ghost their apparent valeur.

    Nils Frykdahl and IF/SGM/FSE relates to this as vaguely as The Beatles did to Kiss or the New York Dolls; it's in the hearing ear and the voice of perception, not in the surface sphere of logical ablution arising from the mere look of things.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  6. #56
    Member chalkpie's Avatar
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    I'm too damned caught up in this Kentbinge to fully give my attention to this album, but of the track I heard twice I dug it daddios.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    I dug it daddios.
    Frankieman, FSE are charging with evil vengeance (together with that Ill Wicker) to suck our souls from out of our afrohaired nostrils through a straw of dental flesh!
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  8. #58
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    Nils and Dan were aware of prog from fairly early on - I know this from conversations with them. And while Nils, at least, had metal and the classical music he'd studied at UC Berkeley as his primary early influences, I get the impression he had no Eighties-hipster disdain for prog. Neither did Dan. They just took each song, artist, and genre for its own value, and didn't worry about what other people labeled it as, or what judgments those people made based upon their self-designated labels. Indeed, being a metalhead, Nils was no kind of hipster at all, although he was certainly always an artist.

    He's also mentioned the Residents as an influence - not musically, so much as in presentation and the importance of an overarching concept. And I think they had an influence on the whole Bay Area avant or semi-avant music scene - you can see or hear echoes of them in Primus, in Bungle and the various post-Bungle bands, in some of the more obscure acts like Eskimo, and so forth. As well as most notably in IF/SGM/FSE.

    And I agree with S.S. about Nils's persona. He's been talking onstage in the same "character voice" for all the twenty years I've known him - a gravelly, slurred, rambling diction that resembles a Southern Fundamentalist Preacher with a mouthful of grits, who has gotten disastrously into the whiskey. It has very little to do with his real voice or personality, which involves being a great "people person". I could see him being a politician in some other lifetime, and he'd probably be good at it.
    Last edited by Baribrotzer; 01-08-2017 at 12:29 PM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    You know, I got Too Fast For Love on its week of release back in '83, and although merely 12 years of age I found it unbearably bad. I still consider them one of the single worst attempts at a "band" I ever heard; I mean, at least the lacklustre abilities of the Shaggs still resultet in a captivating display of mental creativity. The Mötleys had nothing; no organic musical power, no sense of style, no frame of artistic imagination, no historical insight as to the guild of their choice. Absolute utter rubbish which effectively barred me from accepting the notion of "contextualized cliché" which allegedly rendered the cheapness of black metal or SlipKnot or Ghost their apparent valeur.

    Nils Frykdahl and IF/SGM/FSE relates to this as vaguely as The Beatles did to Kiss or the New York Dolls; it's in the hearing ear and the voice of perception, not in the surface sphere of logical ablution arising from the mere look of things.
    Yikes! This gets my vote for most pretentious post

  10. #60
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    I'm glad you felt threatened enough to have to rant about Motley Crue

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by The Czar View Post
    I'm glad you felt threatened enough to have to rant about Motley Crue
    "Threatened"? Are you serious? I haven't even listened to more than half the FSE album yet, for fuck's sake! Why would I feel "threatened"? Why can't you rather address the point of artistic context and divergence that's been made three or four times now?

    "Adolf Hitler" passes without "pretentiousness" involved?
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    I still consider them one of the single worst attempts at a "band" I ever heard.... The Mötleys had nothing; no organic musical power, no sense of style, no frame of artistic imagination, no historical insight as to the guild of their choice.
    I think the whole point of Crottly Goo, and the reason for their success, was their utterly generic quality. In no way were they ever "too smart for the room". Van Halen, for all the pop/hard-rock commerciality of their material, had a goofy quality - a front man who was as much a clown as a singer, and a sort of off-handed musical virtuosity. They did what rock audiences loved, yet subverted it at the same time. But Cloddy Glue took the business proposition of playing to an audience of schmoes absolutely seriously, and gave them everything they wanted and nothing they didn't specifically want.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    "Threatened"? Are you serious? I haven't even listened to more than half the FSE album yet, for fuck's sake! Why would I feel "threatened"? Why can't you rather address the point of artistic context and divergence that's been made three or four times now?

    "Adolf Hitler" passes without "pretentiousness" involved?
    Yes, threatened... A normal person would just say I never really was a fan of Motley Crue, but you went on a diatribe of why you hate them.

    And if you read my previous post I mention what I mentioned Motley Crue in this post... They don't go together but for me right now they do

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by boilk View Post
    As Steve F. has pointed out many times, modern progressive music bands (TYS and Bent Knee come immediately to mind) are out for an audience, not prog fans.

    neil
    Nice to know that someone's paying attention!

    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
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    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by boilk View Post
    Of course...for me...in your opinion, but I still don't feel that means it is necessary to come up with a clever put down to support that opinion.
    You seem to imply that it's OK to say that you don't like something, but if you explain why, you've crossed a line. If that was adhered to, it would only be a matter of time until a fan of the artist would say "Well, yes, but why don't you like it?" At which point it's a Catch-22. Answer the question and offend you, or ignore it and offend him.

    Quote Originally Posted by boilk View Post
    Sometimes, it seems as if, some cannot accept how anyone can possibly like something that they feel is obviously foolish or doesn't work,
    I think this describes your position far more than it does mine. I was commenting on the album linked to above, and simply giving an honest assessment of why it doesn't work for me. Nothing in what I posted was about why others shouldn't like it. Too many people in society today are offended when people don't see the world the way they do, don't like what they like, don't vote for who they vote for, etc, etc. And on a public forum, to expect such is ridiculously unreasonable. Someone voicing a different opinion is not a reason to be butthurt, but that opinion should be able to be explained and not merely be an assertion. I think I did that.

    Quote Originally Posted by boilk View Post
    so to voice that, a clever put down is needed.
    <sigh> Not the intent. It's the way I am likely to talk in real life. I think part of the problem may be that many members of the site work in the corporate cubicle world, where saying anything that could be taken offense to is severely frowned upon. I'm a blue collar worker, and our speech with one another is far more coarse. Add in that there are no females in the workplace, and these kinds of sensitivities are not a priority. I also tend to try to be concise, so I'll say things that are allusions, metaphors, etc that I expect a well informed audience to recognize and understand. That works far less than my expectation would merit.

    Quote Originally Posted by boilk View Post
    And I'm speaking in general here, not against you. Believe me, I have zero interest in political correctness. It's garbage. I just feel that it is time to accept that many people like growling vocals. That's the way it is. Nils is an adult, with what, three daughters I believe? Clearly he believes it's a valid form of vocal expression. We're talking about music here, not conversations with co-workers.
    It's quite obvious. And again, my comment was about why i don't like "Cookie Monster" vocals. People are free to like what they like. I am not a proselytizer. I did the religion thing back in the 80s, and I have no interest in trying to hammer and tong the rest of the world into my image. It seems an assumption was made about the intent of my post which isn't accurate. You put things out on the web, you really can't control how people read them. It's an occupational hazard of posting on a forum, I suppose.
    I like the part where Icarus hijacks the Little Red Hen.

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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_hunt View Post
    Clean singing isn't a normal, adult way to communicate to a coworker either
    Yeah, I expected someone would say that. Clean singing is the musical vocal analog to clean speech, so I think my point holds.
    I like the part where Icarus hijacks the Little Red Hen.

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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    I don't think it's your failing. But then again neither do I believe a "scary monster" is Frykdahl's purported allusion, and this is somewhat important to keep in mind; both Idiot Flesh, SGM and FSE present a continuum on a particular antic of a stage personae he has cultivated for nearly 25 years now - merging deeply serious cyber existentialist theatre in Brecht'ian mode, dark and surrealist humour and performance art along with the "songs". The man's voice is not only displayed differently with this personae in mind, it often sounds differently as well (when compared to, for instance, his input with the Faun Fables or Charming Hostess).
    My 2nd comment was a reply to neil, and as such wasn't about Nils or FSE specifically. It was about "Cookie Monster" vocals in general. However, regardless of what Nils' intent is, in America at least, this type of vocal style does have a place of precedence and somewhat regular use. That would be in Horror movies, where the demon/scary monster/evil antagonist may be found to be speaking in such a manner. In that regard, the toothpaste is out of the tube. I think for an artist to expect the listener to set aside cultural conditioning, and accept the technique on it's own terms as if occurring in a vacuum, isn't very realistic or even entirely fair to the listener. I already have associations in place that immediately come into play upon hearing it. Having said that, whether it works or not will most often come down to how it sounds to the listener, who will not be running it through an intellectual prism in order to evaluate it. The response will be far more visceral.

    That's all general opinion on my part. I've seen SGM & Faun Fables alike, enjoyed both immensely, and own some of their output. I think this FSE might be the best yet musically, and indeed, not every track has the vocal affectation under discussion at present. I still think it's gonna be a "miss" for me.
    Last edited by moecurlythanu; 01-08-2017 at 03:04 PM.
    I like the part where Icarus hijacks the Little Red Hen.

    http://www.discogs.com/user/moecurlythanu/collection

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post

    "Adolf Hitler" passes without "pretentiousness" involved?
    The "Adolf Hitler" comment was entirely about the internet YouTube memes taken from the movie Downfall, specifically the one posted on PE where his rant includes an order for "everyone who thinks Kansas is Prog to leave the room." When I hear "Cookie Monster" vocals, I picture that kind of unhinged rant taking place. The "bad Viking re-enactor" reference relates to the Viking/Death Metal bands who dress in Viking garb and use that vocal technique. That's something I'm not an expert on, but it's how I picture said bands. Hopefully I'm not too far off the mark.

    The whole line was an allusion to a previous post on PE that I thought everyone would be familiar with. Apparently I misjudged that again greatly. I don't see that as "pretentiousness," but if it is, so be it.
    I like the part where Icarus hijacks the Little Red Hen.

    http://www.discogs.com/user/moecurlythanu/collection

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    The "Adolf Hitler" comment was entirely about the internet YouTube memes taken from the movie Downfall, specifically the one posted on PE where his rant includes an order for "everyone who thinks Kansas is Prog to leave the room."
    I know, moe - and this is the main reason why I wasn't as threatened by that comment as I was by the imminent menace of having half-a-listen to FSE challenged by the comparison to Mötley Crüe.
    Last edited by Scrotum Scissor; 01-08-2017 at 02:10 PM.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by The Czar View Post
    Yes, threatened... A normal person would just say I never really was a fan of Motley Crue, but you went on a diatribe of why you hate them.
    First, I never claimed to be a normal person.

    Second, that "diatribe" was an obviously hopeless attempt at actually explaing just why I don't think particularly highly of the mighty Crüe. Of course, elaboration has no home in a darn discussion forum except when backing a position of agreement.

    Third, I don't "hate" what I dislike. I simply cease to pay it attention. And I wouldn't project my own logic of sentiment on the outlook of others, if you may forgive the overt pretentiousness of that statement. I'm not a normal person, remember?

    Fourth, who's "threatened"?
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    The "Adolf Hitler" comment
    On the other hand, I might think a bit about Dolph on listening to the remaining FSE album now!

    Just gotta get over this impending threat to my obtuse anormality first.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    You seem to imply that it's OK to say that you don't like something, but if you explain why, you've crossed a line. If that was adhered to, it would only be a matter of time until a fan of the artist would say "Well, yes, but why don't you like it?" At which point it's a Catch-22. Answer the question and offend you, or ignore it and offend him.

    etc....
    I could go into detail and respond to every one of these points convincingly, but it is simply apparent to me, that we are not on the same page, and further push back, or explanations of our intent in this amount of verbiage, will not make any headway and will be wasted energy for both of us. We have made our points, and it seems wise now, to agree to disagree. You may have the last word, if you like.

    I look forward to your future posts on this site, as I do enjoy them.

    neil

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    First, I never claimed to be a normal person.

    Second, that "diatribe" was an obviously hopeless attempt at actually explaing just why I don't think particularly highly of the mighty Crüe. Of course, elaboration has no home in a darn discussion forum except when backing a position of agreement.

    Third, I don't "hate" what I dislike. I simply cease to pay it attention. And I wouldn't project my own logic of sentiment on the outlook of others, if you may forgive the overt pretentiousness of that statement. I'm not a normal person, remember?

    Fourth, who's "threatened"?
    I just remembered...i don't really care.

  24. #74
    Ok.

    But thanks anyway for quoting me before pointing that out.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  25. #75
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    Vince Nils. Smoking in the Freedom Club.

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