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Thread: Genesis Live Lamb from Archive 1...?

  1. #1
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    Genesis Live Lamb from Archive 1...?

    Can anyone tell me/us exactly where Peter and Steve added their redux's please?

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    Steve's are less obvious. But Peter's...it seems to my ears that most of his vocals on it were redone- his voice has changed considerably so it's not exactly a minor thing.

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    Member Casey's Avatar
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    There's a series of videos on youtube dedicated to this very subject. Something listed under the moniker "the lamb analyzed" by a quite attractive woman named Lileighwhith Lilith.
    I've got a bike you can ride it if you like

  4. #4
    Gabriel's new vocals are easy to spot, they're about an octave lower than the originals. And note that all five members re-did the entirety of "It".

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rand Kelly View Post
    Can anyone tell me/us exactly where Peter and Steve added their redux's please?
    It wasn't just that - most of the Rainbow show was overdubbed, too.

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    Are you sure? My recollection is that IT is a nee remix of the studio version (due to a live tape machine snafu).
    ...but I could be wrong. I don't really enjoy this version much thanks to the vocals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    It wasn't just that - most of the Rainbow show was overdubbed, too.
    No. For some reason Gabriel re-recorded some of the vocal in 'Supper's Ready' and I think Steve re-did 'Firth Of Fifth'. I think it was left alone otherwise.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by mx20 View Post
    Are you sure? My recollection is that IT is a nee remix of the studio version (due to a live tape machine snafu).
    ...but I could be wrong. I don't really enjoy this version much thanks to the vocals.
    Well, the vocal is definitely new, but some bits of the original version may be in there. The bass and drums sound busier though. Hackett sounds close to the original, but that may just be his skill in recreating it, and I hear a couple flashy runs toward the end that weren't there before.

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    It's crazy that they overdubbed anything. It goes against the very name Archive.

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    I did notice yesterday that Fly On A Windshield has Steve using a whammy bar and I know his Les Paul didn't have one Jan. 1975.

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    ^ Pwnd!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    It's crazy that they overdubbed anything. It goes against the very name Archive.
    What should have been one of the greatest boxed-sets ever released ended up as one of the most frustrating instead.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    What should have been one of the greatest boxed-sets ever released ended up as one of the most frustrating instead.
    I thought Archive II was more frustrating. I wish they had included more "work in progress" versions of songs, in particular, I'd like to have heard the 12 minute version of Abacab. Tony Banks once said that the song was originally longer, but they cut a couple bits out "so the record wouldn't be too long". I think they made a few weak choices on the live material front (No Reply At All over ...In That Quiet Earth or 11th Earl Of Mar?!). And those dance mixes of the Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance were a total waste.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Casey View Post
    There's a series of videos on youtube dedicated to this very subject. Something listed under the moniker "the lamb analyzed" by a quite attractive woman named Lileighwhith Lilith.
    Those videos are amazing.
    An in-depth technical discussion on the lamb with a gorgeous babe. Seriously, gentlemen, what more could you ask for?

  15. #15
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKL2000 View Post
    It's crazy that they overdubbed anything. It goes against the very name Archive.
    got a buddy who spent years demolishing our enjoylent of this boxser on this precise account

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    What should have been one of the greatest boxed-sets ever released ended up as one of the most frustrating instead.
    kind of disagree... this boxset is still the only place where you can listen to non-album tracks like Alehouse...

    Quote Originally Posted by rael74 View Post
    Those videos are amazing.
    An in-depth technical discussion on the lamb with a gorgeous babe. Seriously, gentlemen, what more could you ask for?
    a link maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I thought Archive II was more frustrating. I wish they had included more "work in progress" versions of songs, in particular, I'd like to have heard the 12 minute version of Abacab. Tony Banks once said that the song was originally longer, but they cut a couple bits out "so the record wouldn't be too long". I think they made a few weak choices on the live material front (No Reply At All over ...In That Quiet Earth or 11th Earl Of Mar?!). And those dance mixes of the Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance were a total waste.
    the amazing thing is that they didn't even include all three Spot The Pigeon tracks, if memory serves (never owned it)
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  16. #16
    Re: Archive II

    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post

    the amazing thing is that they didn't even include all three Spot The Pigeon tracks, if memory serves (never owned it)
    Which songs were on Spot The Pigeon? I know they left off one or two of the songs that were on side four of the US version of Three Sides Live. And the version of It's Yourself fades out, whereas the original B-side version didn't.

    ANd now that I think of it, and maybe only a demo exists, recorded by Tony by himself, but I remember him saying that Me And Sarah Jane was originally longer, with a couple bits that came after where the song as we know ends, but he felt that the ending we know was the obvious climax, so they left out the bits that came after. One would be most interested in hearing those edited out bits.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by rael74 View Post
    Those videos are amazing.
    An in-depth technical discussion on the lamb with a gorgeous babe. Seriously, gentlemen, what more could you ask for?
    I could answer that question in great detail, but I think it might be one of those "file under TMI" things.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post
    I thought Archive II was more frustrating. I wish they had included more "work in progress" versions of songs, in particular, I'd like to have heard the 12 minute version of Abacab. Tony Banks once said that the song was originally longer, but they cut a couple bits out "so the record wouldn't be too long". I think they made a few weak choices on the live material front (No Reply At All over ...In That Quiet Earth or 11th Earl Of Mar?!). And those dance mixes of the Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance were a total waste.

    True on those 12" mixes. I wonder how many people listen to those? The thing about Archive 2 is that it was essentially rendered unnecessary when the 2007 remix boxes were released. I mean, a scattered handful of live tracks and those dance mixes don't amount to much, at least not for someone like me who collects full live shows. At least the first Archive has the fourth disc, which is still a treasure trove of stuff from the very early period (I find that period quite fascinating).


    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    kind of disagree... this boxset is still the only place where you can listen to non-album tracks like Alehouse...
    Not true. It's on the "Extra Tracks" disc from the 1970-1975 remix box (green).

    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarGeek View Post

    Which songs were on Spot The Pigeon? I know they left off one or two of the songs that were on side four of the US version of Three Sides Live. And the version of It's Yourself fades out, whereas the original B-side version didn't.
    Spot The Pigeon was "Match Of The Day", "Pigeons" and "Inside And Out". "Match Of The Day" was left off the Archive 2 set, angering a lot of fans at the time who felt it was incomplete as a result (people had been clamoring for a "B-sides" album for years and the band never wanted to do one). The band hates that track and did not want it included at the time. They did cave however with the 1976-1982 remix box (blue) and included "Match Of The Day", fully remixed. I think it's kind of a fun track, personally.

    And yes, "Me And Virgil" (another track the band despises, especially Phil), originally part of the 3x3 E.P. and the fourth side of Three Sides Live, was also excluded from Archive 2. This adds to the incompleteness factor, although for me in this case I was okay with it, as that track is perhaps at the absolute bottom of the pile IMO.
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    The first one was so frustrating to me because on paper, this could have been amazing- great sounding live material from a period not really documented that well previously ('Genesis Live' was basically it). Although they didn't deviate in the arrangements, Genesis' reputation was initially built on their live act, and the material was usually played with more energy live. But there was so much decades-after-the-fact tampering involved I seldom listen to it. The B-sides are nice to have but IMHO, at this point in their career, the quality control was stronger- what made the albums was better than these singles IMHO.

    'Twilight Alehouse' and 'Match Of The Day' were also included on the 'Refugees' Charisma 3-cd anthology. These may have been the Nick Davis remixes though...they sound like it, to me.

    The big mistake with the 2nd box was not including more of the rarely-played live tracks from their 1976/7 tours. The 12" mixes I could live without but some people do collect those. Why wasn't it a 4-cd like the first? But at least they didn't fiddle about with the music on that one, and my copy was very cheap.
    Last edited by JJ88; 01-25-2015 at 08:33 AM.

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    Archive 1 is STILL the only place to hear the "single version" of Watcher Of The Skies (actually a completely different recording). It was left out of the 1970-1975 box, much to my dismay!

  21. #21
    Insect Overlord Progatron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mx20 View Post
    Archive 1 is STILL the only place to hear the "single version" of Watcher Of The Skies (actually a completely different recording). It was left out of the 1970-1975 box, much to my dismay!
    Yeah, that could have easily fit on there, not sure why it wasn't included. And unlike most edits or 'single version's, that one is actually worth having because it's so different, and like you say a different recording.
    Interviewer of reprobate ne'er-do-well musicians of the long-haired rock n' roll persuasion at: www.velvetthunder.co.uk and former scribe at Classic Rock Society. Only vaguely aware of anything other than music.

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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by mx20 View Post
    Archive 1 is STILL the only place to hear the "single version" of Watcher Of The Skies (actually a completely different recording). It was left out of the 1970-1975 box, much to my dismay!
    it's on this disc also:Front.jpg
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    In response to the OP, here are the details of Peter's vocal overdubs as found somewhere on the net (can't remember where). At first I was surprised at how little was left of the original vocals, but listening back the following description seems pretty accurate to me.


    1- The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway (1995 studio vocals w some 75 mix in end)
    2- Fly On A Windshield (1995 studio vocals)
    3- Broadway Melody Of 1974 (75 live vocals)
    4- Cuckoo Cocoon (1995 studio vocals)
    5- In The Cage (1995 studio vocals)
    6- The Grand Parade Of Lifeless Packaging (Mix of 95 Studio &75live vocals)
    7- Back In N.Y.C. (1995 studio vocals)
    8- Hairless Heart
    9- Counting Out Time (1995 studio vocals)
    10-Carpet Crawlers (1995 studio vocals)
    11-The Chamber Of 32 Doors (75 live vocals)
    12-Lilywhite lilith (75 live vocal`s ,with just two words from 95 studio)
    13-The waiting room
    14-Anyway (75 live vocals)
    15-Here comes the supernatural Anaesthetist(75 live vocals)
    16-The lamia (1995 studio vocals)
    17-Silent sorrow in empty boats
    18-The Colony of slippermen ( 1995 studio vocals)
    19-Ravine
    20-The light dies down on broadway (1995 studio vocals)
    21-Riding the scree (75 live vocals)
    22-In the rapids (1995 studio vocals)
    23-IT (new remix of the74 sessions with 1995 studio vocals)


    As for Steve's overdubs, to my ears I think he only did the solos on Fly on a Windshield and Lamia, as well as Hairless Heart (played on acoustic although he played it on electric on the 75 tour)
    Not just a Genesis fanboy.

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    ^I defy anybody to read that and not believe this is such a shame- it's almost all of the 2 discs, as I thought. And all this was apparent to me on the first listen through, yet some feel it's just nitpicking to not like twenty-years-later vocal overdubs.

    Steve at least did not much more than was done on many 70s live albums, and re-doing instrumental parts is not really the same thing.

  25. #25
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    I have no issue with it except that it should have been disclosed in the liner notes. It's far from a "live" release.

    To release it with no notation and to call it "live" is fraud, IMO.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

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