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Thread: NUCLEUS (and Ian Carr) First 4 albums

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    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    NUCLEUS (and Ian Carr) First 4 albums

    Been listening to the first 4
    Elastic Rock
    We'll Talk
    Solar Plexus
    Belladonna
    and really enjoying them. The first one is a bit too Jazz-y for my liking but it's growing on me
    The next 3 Rock the Jazz up a bit for some exciting stuff.
    I hear so much Soft Machine in these... that is, what SM would evolve into after Third. I guess it's in the Bass riffs

    what are your opinions of this influential band/musician?
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

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    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Essential. I got I into Soft Machine first, but this was the band I was pointed to next (for obvious reasons). What I really like about these albums and the Nucleus catalog in general was the morphing of the band's sound from album to album. It keeps the catalog fresh to this day. Some days We'll Talk About It Later, then Roots or Labyrinth. I also was really fond of the more recent archive live releases that came out. Tour '76, for example, is amazingly good.


    Influence? Don't know. Curious though, I'm sure our Brit scene experts can ring in, how influecial WAS Nucleus actually to the scene?
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

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    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    I guess I was referring to their influence on mid period Softs mostly...
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

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    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER View Post
    Been listening to the first 4
    Elastic Rock
    We'll Talk
    Solar Plexus
    Belladonna
    and really enjoying them. The first one is a bit too Jazz-y for my liking but it's growing on me
    The next 3 Rock the Jazz up a bit for some exciting stuff.
    I hear so much Soft Machine in these... that is, what SM would evolve into after Third. I guess it's in the Bass riffs
    The Soft Machine from '72 onward was increasingly populated by ex-Nucleus people, and the primary composer from Nucleus during his tenure, Karl Jenkins, effectively took control of Soft Machine, even recycling his "Song Of The Bearded Lady" Nucleus track as "Hazard Profile, Part 1." on Bundles.

    I've been on a major Nucleus kick since Christmas when I got 2 of the BGO twofers off my wish list.

    You should read this: http://www.allaboutjazz.com/ian-carr...ohn-kelman.php

  5. #5
    We'll Talk is still among the top-10 of all fusion albums *I* have heard. I like the three others as well, plus several later titles - but none have struck a stronger chord than the one I mentioned. And, as with the Softs, this wasn't even "fusion" as known. There was something strangely new and unequivocally British about it.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER View Post
    Been listening to the first 4
    Elastic Rock
    We'll Talk
    Solar Plexus
    Belladonna
    and really enjoying them.
    Those are the four I have, in addition to UK '76 Tour. I like 'em all!

  7. #7
    All excellent and essential AFAIC.
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    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    The Soft Machine from '72 onward was increasingly populated by ex-Nucleus people, and the primary composer from Nucleus during his tenure, Karl Jenkins, effectively took control of Soft Machine, even recycling his "Song Of The Bearded Lady" Nucleus track as "Hazard Profile, Part 1." on Bundles.
    aHA that's one of the themes! thanx... and there are others that made me go 'hmm... isn't that on a Soft Machine album somewhere?'
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  9. #9
    You might be interested in an extensive (what's new) article I wrote about Ian Carr and Nucleus, discussing its history and entire discography to that time. Ian Carr and Nucleus: '70s British Jazz Rock Progenitors.

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    Member Since: 3/27/2002 MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER's Avatar
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    I read the whole thing John, it was linked above. Well written summary
    Why is it whenever someone mentions an artist that was clearly progressive (yet not the Symph weenie definition of Prog) do certain people feel compelled to snort "thats not Prog" like a whiny 5th grader?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER View Post
    I read the whole thing John, it was linked above. Well written summary
    ah, my bad. Missed that..sorry....and thanks!!!

  12. #12
    I don't hear much Nucleus on Fifth, but definitely on Six and after.

  13. #13
    I think I like Roots and Labyrinth the best.
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    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    I don't hear much Nucleus on Fifth, but definitely on Six and after.
    Well, by Fifth, only Babbington had come over for a few tracks.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    Well, by Fifth, only Babbington had come over for a few tracks.
    That was meant to be as a response to someone who thought that they did start sounding like Nucleus with Fifth, but I forgot to quote the text.

    Fifth is the closest to pure jazz that Soft Machine did, IMO, and Dean's vision for the band was pretty different from Jenkins'.

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    Member Jay.Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER View Post
    Been listening to the first 4
    Elastic Rock
    We'll Talk
    Solar Plexus
    Belladonna
    and really enjoying them. The first one is a bit too Jazz-y for my liking but it's growing on me
    The next 3 Rock the Jazz up a bit for some exciting stuff.
    If you dig their rocky side, do not overlook Live In Bremen recorded in 1972 with Ray Russell on guitar.

    http://cuneiformrecords.com/bandshtml/nucleus.html

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    Well, by Fifth, only Babbington had come over for a few tracks.
    You probably mean John Marshall, who played on all of side 2.
    Babbington played a bowed string bass solo on "As If", that's it. (His contribution to "Fourth" was much more substantial.)
    Calyx (Canterbury Scene) - http://www.calyx-canterbury.fr
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    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    I think the band most influenced by Nucleus was Perigeo...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    I think I like Roots and Labyrinth the best.
    Took me a while to get into these two, but they finally sunk in a few years ago

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay.Dee View Post
    If you dig their rocky side, do not overlook Live In Bremen recorded in 1972 with Ray Russell on guitar.
    indeed, excellent.. Russell didn't stay long (from his discography, you can probably assume that Nucleus was not his kind of gig) - as he repolaced the estranged Chris Spedding... but you can find some Live Nucleus with Spedding on Pretty Redhead
    Last edited by Trane; 01-19-2015 at 07:09 PM.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Trane View Post
    You can find some Live Nucleus with Spedding on Pretty Redhead
    Yes, but only half the CD, since the rest is a 1982 session (shortly after John Marshall had returned so he's on all the tracks).
    "Hemispheres" (Hux Records) is a great document of the original line-up. Not sure where the 1970 performance is from, but I believe the 1971 one is from Belgium. I particularly love the very first album so that one's a real favourite.
    Calyx (Canterbury Scene) - http://www.calyx-canterbury.fr
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    My latest books : "Yes" (2017) - https://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/yes/ + "L'Ecole de Canterbury" (2016) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/lecoledecanterbury/ + "King Crimson" (2012/updated 2018) - http://lemotetlereste.com/musiques/kingcrimson/
    Canterbury & prog interviews - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdf...IUPxUMA/videos

  20. #20
    Parrots Ripped My Flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    You probably mean John Marshall, who played on all of side 2.
    Babbington played a bowed string bass solo on "As If", that's it. (His contribution to "Fourth" was much more substantial.)
    I knew I should have checked.

  21. #21
    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calyx View Post
    Yes, but only half the CD, since the rest is a 1982 session (shortly after John Marshall had returned so he's on all the tracks).
    "Hemispheres" (Hux Records) is a great document of the original line-up. Not sure where the 1970 performance is from, but I believe the 1971 one is from Belgium. I particularly love the very first album so that one's a real favourite.
    Yes, I might have mentionned that only half of Redhead is Spedding-era

    As for Hemispheres, indeed, it's superb.... But then again like most Hux/BBC tapes ...

    Re: the debut, I have a real fascination for the cut-out sleeve (and that innerfold >> always wondered if that was some sort of montage or not), but I musy say that it's not (in my eyes or in my ears anyway) a typical Nucleus album... As MT says, it's stll very jazzy (as opposed to fusionny).... As if Carr's original plan was to recreate (of sorts) the Don Rendell/Ian Carr Quintet, which had some stellar moments - especially the Dusk Fire album from 66


    My fave is definitely their second album (dumb name, though), especially the closing track, which reeks power organ


    =======================


    While my fave albums date from the Spedding era, I also appreciate de second full group (the Sutton/Berles//Sellers line-up) with albums like Under The Sun, Snakehips and Alleycats
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

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    That's Mr. to you, Sir!! Trane's Avatar
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    For those interested, Nucleus can be heard on two Neil Ardley albums: Kaleidoscope of Rainbows (from 76) and Harmony Of The Spheres (78)... They're ll over the place, though Ardley is the composer, so it sounds rather different (leaning a tad towards new-age, but still excellent fusion), but you can recognize the band's paw immediadetly.
    my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicts to complete nutcases.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    Fifth is the closest to pure jazz that Soft Machine did, IMO, and Dean's vision for the band was pretty different from Jenkins'.
    Agree. And the Dean/Howard lineup was even better captured on the Just Us album, plus further explored on the somewhat spotty live recording Drop.
    "Improvisation is not an excuse for musical laziness" - Fred Frith
    "[...] things that we never dreamed of doing in Crimson or in any band that I've been in," - Tony Levin speaking of SGM

  24. #24
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    The first few United Jazz & Rock Ensemble albums are of interest here.
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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotum Scissor View Post
    We'll Talk is still among the top-10 of all fusion albums *I* have heard. I like the three others as well, plus several later titles - but none have struck a stronger chord than the one I mentioned. And, as with the Softs, this wasn't even "fusion" as known. There was something strangely new and unequivocally British about it.
    Yeah, the second one was always the one I liked best.
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