Psychology of online YES fans

[Sean]

And that's the exact perception of many, to this day.
But decades-later perceptions cannot replace the fact that certain songs are extremely difficult to reproduce.
And so it goes...

Yeah, it's one thing to listen and another to actually have the ability to play what you are hearing. This is quirky music that takes a awhile to unravel and much longer to "master". Any guitarist that goes down that road is going to have a more diverse palette to draw on than many that didn't since they are such an eclectic brew. Many worthwhile musical lessons are learned in the process. Finding people to play it with and actually finding an audience for it is usually does not balance out with the effort put in to learn it, unless you are aiming for tribute band-land. It's more about where you set the bar at a time in your development as a player and the heights you personally look to scale as a musician.

[firth5th]

Yes fans need to realize, it's just a band.

[Zeuhlmate]

Here is the YES meddley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBrgCUBAHcg

The tracks are from the time I liked YES.

[Brian Griffin]

Clearly, after the gods have appeared from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people, there will be a lifetime of passion

They are, along with 70's Genesis, the most popular band for that era so by sheer numbers there will be a-holes

I'd like to think for every a-hole you've come across, you've met many more good people - I know that I have

As big a fan as I am I really don't have in interest in any other boards although I did check FB after it was pointed there and the Jon stuff is intense

The thing is as far as I can tell you really don't find a lot of good discussion either there or at Yesfans

I think it gets to a point where you've said everything you've had to say and it goes stale - as a whole going over the best loved older stuff has kind of reached a saturation point I believe

In the short time I've been on Yesfans I think it's pretty clear where opinions are and what will be said just by seeing who posted the latest post

BG

[DGuitarist]

Yeah, it's one thing to listen and another to actually have the ability to play what you are hearing. This is quirky music that takes a while to unravel and much longer to "master". Any guitarist that goes down that road is going to have a more diverse palette to draw on than many that didn't since they are such an eclectic brew. Many worthwhile musical lessons are learned in the process. Finding people to play it with and actually finding an audience for it is usually does not balance out with the effort put in to learn it, unless you are aiming for tribute band-land. It's more about where you set the bar at a time in your development as a player and the heights you personally look to scale as a musician.

But it's nice to be able to fill-out a set of your original material live, with songs like "Heart Of The Sunrise."

We were "tribute-band land" - just a tribute to "classic prog" that covered nine different bands.

The really surreal fact is that the many hardcore fans of the band don't even really talk about the band that much, at the so called "gatherings!"

[Rarebird]

OK, what's a better band to compare with a similar, turbulent existence?

Deep Purple?

Eloy? Though basicly the Frank Borneman band.

Jane? Even with several versions at the same time.

[llanwydd]

OK, what's a better band to compare with a similar, turbulent existence?

Probably the Beatles. Anyway, on the original topic, at least this place isn't like a.m.y. I swear if those guys ever got together they would kill each other. On this site, I don't see much namecalling over the subject of Yes. I know I have never insulted anyone about the music they like but I have had it directed at me on rare occasions. I'm just as puzzled as you are. I didn't know until I first got on the internet that about half my fellow Yesheads are flaming aholes. That was a disappointment. I somehow didn't encounter any at Madison Square Garden, where there were the biggest groups of us. It is somewhat disturbing.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Yes fans need to realize, it's just a band.

this is as poignant as it gets

I must have a couple dozen artists who are my among my favorites. I don't get the fixating on one band thing at all.
Nerds is the only answer

[bmooncd]

Ah! The results of your poll are back in. But the findings are inconclusive....

I parsed that as "The insults of your poll are back in. But the findings are inconclusive...."

Hmmm.

[Brian Griffin]

So Sean, I'm curious as to why you would start this thread, only because is this "phenomenon" really new?

I took another look at the Facebook page, some AMY dennisons posting with almost the same party line from almost 20 years ago!

Some of the back and forth is pretty close to what usenet was like

BG

[Reginod]

I must have a couple dozen artists who are my among my favorites. I don't get the fixating on one band thing at all.

Yeah, there are way too many bands and artists that have made excellent music to focus so heavily on one. I have historically gotten a lot of mileage out of Yes (and the rest of the Big 5-6-7-whatever), and I still enjoy them when the mood is there, but exploring new or different things is way more rewarding.

Now as far as progrock soap operas are concerned . . . . . . . . . . .

[2steves]

I love classic 70's Yes--the problem with the band is that their music was like religion to me---and they made the tragic mistake IMO--of letting too many 2nd rate musicians into the group---at least Genesis didn't do this---whether you like the music or not of the late 80's and 90's----Rush whether you like them or not kept the original group in tact----Yes was a mess because of all the changes---it didn't help the group or the musical progression by letting 2nd and 3rd rate talent in the group---it was really bad choice---Yes only works if you have 5 great--first rate musicians in it---playing their hearts out---anything else just added to crappy music 2nd and 3rd rate albums and division among the fans----thus the endless controversy.

[the winter tree]

I'm a huge YES fan and have seen them over 30 times over the years. I've also been to many other concerts and YES concerts seem to attract the most obnoxious jerks. In 2013 a drunk was trying to loudly pick a fight with a guy sitting in back of me during the quietest parts of "Turn of the Century". I could go on and on. It's puzzling.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Yeah, there are way too many bands and artists that have made excellent music to focus so heavily on one. I have historically gotten a lot of mileage out of Yes (and the rest of the Big 5-6-7-whatever), and I still enjoy them when the mood is there, but exploring new or different things is way more rewarding.

absolutely!
I like some passages that Yes has created. I have all their albums through Onion but seriously, this band isn't even as talented or interesting as at least 50 others I could name! As Shatner said, "get a life!"

[bob_32_116]

I am a member of a number of forums music-related and not, and there are several more that I used to be a member of before leaving in disgust.

To some extent the atmosphere on a forum depends on the topic under discussion, but it's also very dependent on how well the site is moderated.

I believe most people on most sites are decent human beings, but the Internet being what it is, it only takes a small minority population of arseholes to make life miserable for the majority. On many sites the "moderators" don't actually monitor the site very much, or they adopt a laissez-faire approach, leading people to think that anything is fair game for posting.

On a certain Yes forum - I think everyone who has been there knows the one I mean - any laying down of the law by a moderator was met in certain quarters by allegations of "censorship". Those people would never let the issue rest, they would post their hobby-horse in threads that were totally unrelated; they would continually bitch about "It's no longer a free country, I have been silenced." I have never thought of forums in that way. to me, a site that someone else has set up belongs to them. If I want to walk into a neighbour's house and hold a discussion there, I would expect to have to ask permission, and I would expect that permission might not necessarily be granted, or that permission might be withdrawn if I suddenly started abusing the other people present.

Part of the problem is that "moderation" is often used as a blunt instrument. No action is taken until things get really bad, then someone gets removed from the members list. Moderation is not just about kicking people out when it becomes necessary; it should include the occasional word on the forum, or a private message to someone, saying that such-and-such is not really the kind of thing we want to see here.

For the record, I think the PE moderators do a pretty good job overall. (Now excuse me while I shift position, so I can lick the other one.)

[Brian Griffin]

For the record, I think the PE moderators do a pretty good job overall

Preach!

I hadn't looked at many other Yes forums and tend to just glance over Facebook over the past few years

Any argument clinics here are way tame in comparison, I think I'd forgotten what a plus that is, this site is a much more pleasant hang

BG

[Frumious B]

Yes fans need to realize, it's just a band.

"It's just a band" should also apply to fans who get all worked up, butt hurt and poutraged over criticism, humor and even outright mockery of the band/artist in question. You'd think that fans of Yes, in particular, would have much thicker skins than they do. Heck, I very much enjoy reading negative reviews of my favorite albums. I don't need everyone or anyone to agree with me.

[bob_32_116]

Interestingly, the "Unofficial Porcupine Tree Forum" is one of the most civil forums around. I think that's partly to do with the nature of the band. On an AC/DC fan forum, you might expect that everyone there would be a metalhead, and anyone commenting how much they loved A Trick of the Tail would be mercilessly mocked. Yes became identified very quickly in the piece by a certain sound, thought by many to be the very definition of "symphonic progr", therefore someone posting their love for Back In Black might expect a cool reception. Porcupine Tree on the other hand brought so many different ideas and styles to the table that there are people on the PTF who love Tangerine Dream and Enya, others who prefer Megadeth, and mostly they seem to all get along.

[Interstellar]

I am interested in Yes-related topics on this forum, because
- I am interested in bands with a complicated history and changing line-ups (Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Wishbone Ash, etc)
- this forum is a civil place (at least, until the discussion moves to jazz drumming vs rock drumming, for instance )
- I'm not a Yes fan (still discovering their classic records, and enjoying parts of them), so I don't feel passionately involved in the drama and I don't have to deal with annoying worshippers
- Yes appears to be an entity with such an unstable history (and a tendency to shoot itself in the foot) that it's REALLY fascinating !

[jkelman]

By and large no band on the net has inspired such adamant vitriol than YES. It seems it has been that way from the beginning of the net. One look at old posts at alt.music.yes confirms this. It sure didn't start with the ousting of Mr Anderson.

Why do you suppose a great deal of online Yes fans are such nitpicky shit talkers? Do they feel the band betrayed them in some way? Do they feel like they are owed something?

Is it impossible to be a member of a Yes forum and have a healthy existence there, free of having to wade through that sort of BS?

I have said before "if you are MEAN to someone over a ROCK BAND you need a serious attitude adjustment", yet it's commonplace.

So why are online Yes forums overrun with these self important fuck-wits? What makes them tick? Why such passionate HATE?

Did the way the band treated each other over the years inspire this? Is turn about fair play?

I don't hate Yes but compared to what they once were, they are certainly a major disappointment. It certainly has nothing to do with them owing me anything, with any kind of "fair play," as you frankly strangely suggest, in the way the band treated each other. Personal internal politics don't matter...only the music does, and I'd challenge anyone to suggest a Yes album (even 90125, which was a great pop record but hardly progressive) beyond, at best, Drama, that matches the kind of unrelenting innovation that marked those early years.

Why is there so much trash talk? Well, of all the classic era Prog bands still around today, IMO none has been as disappointing as Yes. A group that was once a collective hero to me has gone well past its best buy date, and if you compare it to other legacy bands who are still in action, it pains me to say they just fall so, so short. And I wish it were otherwise, I really do.

But it's not hate; it's disappointment. King Crmson and Van der Graaf Generator continue to surprise snd move forward...even when, as is the case with the revived Crim, it's largely revisitng a 40 year-old repertoire. But it's doing that repertoire in a way that feels as fresh now as it did then, while VdGG releases new albums, some of which stand as being just as good as anything they released back in the day...and put on shows that are musically energetic, dramatic, exhilarating, searching and commanding as Crimson's "toe in the water" 2014 tour.

One could actually flip around the question and ask: why do the hardcore Yes fans hang onto the idea that their heroes are still making music that ranks with their classic era, that is still in the category of "great"?...and delivering performances that are largely lacklustre...either with reduced tempos or, if closer to original tempo, revealing weaknesses in the members of the band? Why are the fans so insistent that Yes is still great when, at this point, and at least in the opinion of many, they are good at best? And when challenged, have to find reasons that justify this...in particular, age, which holds no water when you consider the ages of Fripp, Collins and Levin in Crimson, and the geriatric status of VdGG.

I repeat: I don't hate Yes; I am just so tremendously disappointed when I hear either new studio or live material. Someone sent me the new live album doing TYA and GftO...and while I sat through the whole thing, all I could think of was: where was Howe's energy and bite? Where was Squire's thundering presence? It wasn't bad...but it did not live up to the premise of playing these albums front to back (or, as I hear they did CttE, back to front). They may be better sounding recordings, but I'll tske Yessongs or Yesshows any day.

Sadly, when I ask myself why they continue, I keep coming back to one reason: money. And fair enough. But if they tailored their material to better suit their limitations, I think I'd find myself liking them a lot more. just like watching ELP at High Voltage, where or seemed so clear that the band simply couldn't manage what it once could, watching Yes these days is truly something that evokes but one emotion, and it isn't hate. It's sadness.

So, you asked the question....but my answer is, I think, what many detractors would say: I don't hate Yes; far from it. I'm just so disappointed with everything I hear and see of the current lineup - and, if I am truthful, other then the occasional glimmer like "Homeworld," from The Ladder - truly an unfulfilled promise if ever there was one - I've been disappointed with the group for a long time. To me, this is a group that seems to have been struggling to retain its credibility so hard that it's just plain sad because it really has been able to do so for so, so long.

I hope you find this an example of what I think is reslly at the root of a lot of those you call "haters." We're not haters, you see. We're sad and disappointed that a group that broke so much ground, especially from 1971-1974 with TYA to Relayer.. For me, these were their finest hours, which they never recaptured, and even GftO, which has its moment to be sure, doesn't live up to those earlier records, and the same can be said for Tormato and Drama. Crimson managed to avoid the trappings of its glory days, and VdGG as well...witness the two post-Banton albums of the '70s that are as raw and, to borrow a phrase, vital as anything they'd done prior, even without the monumental talent of Banton to give them the group its more sweeping, cinematic sound.

Best,
John

[jkelman]

I don't get it either. If you can't accept whomever might in a current line-up, you feel they've only created shit music for decades and you've been done with the band forever, then be done, stay done. But this is how almost every case of hero worship of a person/persons that don't burn out before they fade away eventually ends - ugly. Almost every famous person or hero that doesn't die young has plenty of time to disappoint their psychifant minions. And the worst people in the world to piss off are psychifants (Mark David Chapman anyone?).

First, it's sycophant. Second, to suggest that most artists fade away and their latter years are "ugly," consider these names, some Prog, some not:

King Crimson
Vsn der Graaf Generator
Leonard Cohen
Neil Young
Paul Simon
Hugh Hopper
David Gilmour
Randy Newman
Richard Thompson
Ry Cooder

Every one of these artists -one, now 80 (Cohen) - continue (or, before Hopper passed, continued) to make music that's as good as anything else they've done - in some cases, like Cohen, the best of their career. Not all artists fail or fade away. Some continue to work and, while they may not push as many envelopes as they once did, instead they have hesrself experience, growth and maturity to draw upon. And even if not all of them are putting out the bedt albums of their csreer, there's a consistency and baseline goodness that, i'm sorry to say - truly, really, really sorry - Yes hasn't managed to sustain in any palpable way.

I wish it were otherwise, I reslly, reslly do.

[jkelman]

And damn it, don't complain or they'll just pack it up and never tour or record again...

I wish. Their legacy would be far more intact if they were to do just that, IMO.

[jkelman]

Another problem, which I forgot to mention: some folks feel, if you criticize a band they love, that you are also criticizing them.

Nothing could be further from the truth. But it seems to me that this is a fundamental problem when groups that are heroes to some get criticized.

[Interstellar]

Another problem, which I forgot to mention: some folks feel, if you criticize a band they love, that you are also criticizing them.

Nothing could be further from the truth. But it seems to me that this is a fundamental problem when groups that are heroes to some get criticized.

One could draw a comparison with religion, to some extent of course. I live in France, where the right to criticize religion and the sensitivity to criticism and mockery are currently hot topics, after recent terrorist attacks and threats. It feels quite refreshing to discuss the psychology of Yes fans in this context because, even though some of these people may behave in strange ways, they still don't kill each other (well, I hope so anyway !).

[Brian Griffin]

John, I'm not sure you are the type Sean is referring to, but I'll leave that to him

I share none of your disappointment : )

We're sad and disappointed that a group that broke so much ground, especially from 1971-1974 with TYA to Relayer.. For me, these were their finest hours, which they never recaptured, and even GftO, which has its moment to be sure, doesn't live up to those earlier records, and the same can be said for Tormato and Drama.

TYA - Relayer defined a genre, to expect them to equal that run was about as unrealistic then as it was now, (I agree with you re: GftO - Drama)

The rub is for me, it doesn't mean the others aren't worthwhile because they aren't on that level

Since the 1980 Drama shows I've seen Yes 50+ times in concert, and I enjoy all their records - if you'd told me in the mid eighties I'd get to see so many more shows and they'd release this many albums, and it would still be going on into my mid 50's I wouldn't have believed it

BG