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Thread: The Audiophile Thread

  1. #2276
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    It's built-in, in some of Lyngdorfs amps - https://lyngdorf.com/roomperfect/
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyngdorf
    RoomPerfect™ was developed for optimal music reproduction – a far more critical application than home cinema. It is unique in preserving the sound of your speakers rather than changing them to the target curve the room correction system dictates.
    How in the hell would THAT work? The only control a room EQ software would have would be to alter the speaker output to counteract room acoustics. In large theaters, both movie and performance, it's commonplace to run the house PA through a parametric EQ which squelches frequencies which the room would otherwise affect, like reducing resonant bass frequencies and boosting highs lost to seating or tapestries. It's all done through manipulating the speakers. So far as I understand the concept, the ONLY way to EQ a room is to "target the curve that the room correction system dictates."

    Is this done with magic crystals on the walls again?

  2. #2277
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Is this done with magic crystals on the walls again?
    those crystals resonate at even order harmonics, cancelling odd order harmonics. They are also used to control interval reaction flow of matter to antimatter when contained in a magnetic field.

  3. #2278
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    Last edited by Zeuhlmate; 01-26-2020 at 08:00 PM.

  4. #2279
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberrybrick View Post
    I'm thinking about using REW (Room EQ Wizard), measuring the room, and then applying the results via Roon.
    I'm thinking I might do it backwards. Get the unit and adjust the settings to Concert Hall dimensions.

    I've always wanted a bigger house.

  5. #2280
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I've always wanted a bigger house.
    There's an app for that.

  6. #2281
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Interesting. It appears to do exactly as a tuned concert hall would, boosting the EQ in the holes and cutting it in the peaks. No new science there.

    The graphs the author displays show frightening gaps at 60Hz and 120Hz, and essentially no response above 12KHz. Surprising he's okay with that.

  7. #2282
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Interesting. It appears to do exactly as a tuned concert hall would, boosting the EQ in the holes and cutting it in the peaks. No new science there.

    The graphs the author displays show frightening gaps at 60Hz and 120Hz, and essentially no response above 12KHz. Surprising he's okay with that.
    EQ is BS. The response of a system is both frequency amplitude and delay versus frequency stimulus. Or an impulse response measurement which has a very long measurement window.

  8. #2283
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    What does "delay versus frequency stimulus" mean? Maybe I'm missing some basic concept you're describing.

  9. #2284
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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  10. #2285
    Well, I set it flat as a door nail. Now I know what local audio dealer meant when he said "make those (main) drivers do the work". I actually like the boominess of the "uncorrected" signal. Something to get used to? Anyway, there's a bazillion options to futz with....

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  11. #2286
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    Some people refer to group delay, which is really the linear phase vs frequency response. If one was to evaluate a room response which could have signal delays much greater than any wavelength, there needs to be an assessment of the delay of signals relative to a listener. Anyway frequency response ignores the time domain cause for that frequency response, or phase response. Impulse response measurement is the ideal measurement to characterize a room response relative to a listener and a Finite Impulse Response (FIR) can correct if enough bits are used in the coefficients and the FIR is long enough.

  12. #2287
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    So you're talking room resonance?

    Room resonance is a real thing. You don't need a bunch of $10 words to make a basic concept sound posh.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 01-28-2020 at 01:32 PM.

  13. #2288
    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Some people refer to group delay, which is really the linear phase vs frequency response. If one was to evaluate a room response which could have signal delays much greater than any wavelength, there needs to be an assessment of the delay of signals relative to a listener. Anyway frequency response ignores the time domain cause for that frequency response, or phase response. Impulse response measurement is the ideal measurement to characterize a room response relative to a listener and a Finite Impulse Response (FIR) can correct if enough bits are used in the coefficients and the FIR is long enough.
    I don't know what this means.
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  14. #2289
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    So you're talking room resonance?

    Room resonance is a real thing. You don't need a bunch of $10 words to make a basic concept sound posh.
    Itís more than resonance, thatís what your overly simplistic model communicates. The simple model is that an audio signal arrives directly from a speaker to a listener and a copy reflects off an acoustic mirror to the listener from a different direction. When these 2 signals add together there are is constructive and destructive interference at different frequencies, which you could call resonances or cancellations. In reality, there is a continuum of reflections added together.

  15. #2290
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    It’s more than resonance, that’s what your overly simplistic model communicates. The simple model is that an audio signal arrives directly from a speaker to a listener and a copy reflects off an acoustic mirror to the listener from a different direction. When these 2 signals add together there are is constructive and destructive interference at different frequencies, which you could call resonances or cancellations. In reality, there is a continuum of reflections added together.
    Yeah, that's "room resonance." You can look it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by strawberrybrick
    I don't know what this means.
    That's because it's all dressed up in audio mumbo-jumbo word salad.

  16. #2291
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Yeah, that's "room resonance." You can look it up.

    That's because it's all dressed up in audio mumbo-jumbo word salad.
    Thatís what you call resonance, and you can call it whatever makes you feel good. However, using one word to describe it gives someone no clue how to solve it. Even if acoustic absorbing material turned the room into an anechoic chamber, one still has combination of multiple channels to contend with, which has nothing to do with the room, except geometry.

  17. #2292
    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    That’s what you call resonance, and you can call it whatever makes you feel good. However, using one word to describe it gives someone no clue how to solve it. Even if acoustic absorbing material turned the room into an anechoic chamber, one still has combination of multiple channels to contend with, which has nothing to do with the room, except geometry.
    Just put up a new set of drapes.
    NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF STUPID PEOPLE IN LARGE GROUPS!

  18. #2293
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    There are so many ways you can tweak a system to sound better - or just different. But to have a decent room is mandatory.

    I have recently applied a DS Audio Dectet to my system (a current filter), and it definetely have changed the sound. But I am not sure it uniquely is for the better.
    I used to have a solid state preamp (exposure 17) which had a nicely controlled bass.
    Now I have an EAR 864 tube preamp (which is better in so many ways), but with the DS, the bass has tighten up so that it is almost tighter than with the Exposure. On the other hand, it sounds like the overall dynamics has decreased.
    In a couple of weeks I will Pull off the DS of the system again and compare.
    One of these days I receive a cheap power cable (Supra anniversary), I dont expect it to make any difference, but who knows. Some woodoo actually seem to do something.

  19. #2294
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Some woodoo actually seem to do something.
    You're doing it the right way, doing A-to-B comparisons, pulling components out one-at-a-time, swapping them, comparing them, back-and-forth, in-and-out, listening critically for subtle differences with each replacement, being skeptical of any claims by the manufacturer or a biased reviewer. Prove everything to yourself!

    By the way, it's entirely normal for a component to have mixed effects like your EAR 864, where some parts of the signal are better but others may not be as good. It's all about finding a balance that you can live with, at a price you can afford.

  20. #2295
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    ^^^
    The only way unless you are swimming in money.

    But again, not all music sounds as good as it should. I have just listened to Joni Mitchell - Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, and Pastorius bass playing & sound is nothing less than fantastic and moving, even though the production and ambience is a bit funny here and there.

    But I still have problems listening to Animals as Leaders - The Madness of Many. The drums are ridiculous.

    Or I am just getting particular... (That can be expensive, timeconsuming and annoying).
    Its partly interesting & fun, but also distracting my attention from just enjoying the music when the sound is too much.

  21. #2296
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I've found some music sounds better on some components than on other components, but those "other" components might sound best with another disc. It's all a subjective turkey shoot.

    The very WORST way to evaluate stereo gear is to read a glowing review (online, or in a magazine, or on a manufacturer's website -- because they're all probably written by the same guy), buy that piece of equipment and install it in your system. Then you sit back and try to hear the "transparency" and "sound stage" and "effortlessness" and "musicality" that the reviewer raved about.

    If you spent enough $$$, chances are, you'll hear it!

  22. #2297
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    True.
    I know a guy who has 3 sets - one is good for orchestral/classical, another is good for choir and acoustic (its a snell A3/Mcintosh combination) and the last is for rythmic stuff (thats the one with - I think - wilson watt/puppy ) - he says.

    If many reviewers agrees, including customers/owners, or if you by chance seem to have the same 'ears' as the reviewer, its worth trying (if you can afford it or borrow). Denmark is small, so often you can borrow equipment for the weekend to test. But usually you just compare it to your own kit, and not an array of devices.


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  23. #2298
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    There are so many ways you can tweak a system to sound better - or just different. But to have a decent room is mandatory.

    I have recently applied a DS Audio Dectet to my system (a current filter), and it definetely have changed the sound. But I am not sure it uniquely is for the better.
    I used to have a solid state preamp (exposure 17) which had a nicely controlled bass.
    Now I have an EAR 864 tube preamp (which is better in so many ways), but with the DS, the bass has tighten up so that it is almost tighter than with the Exposure. On the other hand, it sounds like the overall dynamics has decreased.
    In a couple of weeks I will Pull off the DS of the system again and compare.
    One of these days I receive a cheap power cable (Supra anniversary), I dont expect it to make any difference, but who knows. Some woodoo actually seem to do something.
    Most of the time, the room is the room you have. As much as I'd like to change, I've got half the basement, and my family has the rest of the house.

    It's interesting what my early attempts at using room correction have done. For the most part, they've lessened what some trusted ears have already told me.

    But more than anything, once you get to a certain level of system it's all about the source you're playing. Last night I was flipping through my library and was astounded at how bad some recordings sounded - Anekdoten for example. The most perfect thing I found was Banks Of The Nile by Fortheringay. They were in the room with me.
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  24. #2299
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Yeah, that's "room resonance." You can look it up.

    That's because it's all dressed up in audio mumbo-jumbo word salad.
    So room resonance is defined as a 20-200 Hz effect. Well that effect isnít what I was describing. Room correction has to do with channel to channel alignment primarily with multichannel systems (number of channels greater than 2). Having 2 independently calibrated and powered subwoofers helps room resonance. My receiver can calibrate for Dolby Atmos also.

  25. #2300
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    How in the hell would THAT work? The only control a room EQ software would have would be to alter the speaker output to counteract room acoustics. In large theaters, both movie and performance, it's commonplace to run the house PA through a parametric EQ which squelches frequencies which the room would otherwise affect, like reducing resonant bass frequencies and boosting highs lost to seating or tapestries. It's all done through manipulating the speakers. So far as I understand the concept, the ONLY way to EQ a room is to "target the curve that the room correction system dictates."

    Is this done with magic crystals on the walls again?
    EQ with graphic equalizers is a crude way to obtain an ideal acoustic response. Calibrating receivers assume an input which is ideal, either flat in frequency and linear in phase vs frequency (sweep), an impulse, or pink noise. An impulse is most accurate because all frequencies are represented and the time delay and amplitude can be measured at all frequencies. Each speaker gets a unique FIR filter which aligns for frequency amplitude vs time delay relative to a listener position.

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