Thread: The Audiophile Thread

  1. #2201
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    All the cable is doing is providing connection. Phase would be inverted at the crossover I'm guessing. There is no active amplification or crossover. And yes, the SDA network was only in use when the cable was connected. I stated that the SDA info was midrange, but all the drivers were full range. The older SDA speakers themselves were two-way with a crossover point of 2.5k at 18db slope coupled to a PR.

  2. #2202
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    And yes, the SDA network was only in use when the cable was connected. I stated that the SDA info was midrange, but all the drivers were full range. The older SDA speakers themselves were two-way with a crossover point of 2.5k at 18db slope coupled to a PR.
    Yup, that's what it's doing then -- giving you a Left-minus-Right center channel cancellation, below 2,500Hz.

  3. #2203
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Except I don't believe any frequencies below 500hz are used in the SDA signal and I don't think they're using a Hafler configuration either. Its an inverse right signal to the left channel and an inverse signal from the left channel to the right channel.

  4. #2204
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I'd like to return to this discussion for a sec, if you don't mind. Speakers "beaming to each ear" is indeed a thing -- we do that with headphones for instance -- and I've heard several megabuck stereo systems set up to do exactly this.

    To some extent, this may be the most pure, most isolated, least "room effect" way to set up a speaker system.

    But I'm not convinced it's the best.

    For one thing, it gives you a "sweet spot" that is not just a finite plane, but a finite POINT. There is one perfect spot, equidistant from the speakers, a certain distance from the walls, a certain height -- and if you move your head one inch to the left or right, or an inch up or down, your sweet spot disappears. It's like wearing REALLY BIG headphones. In a huge room, there might be only one place to sit to hear music....

    With many speakers, particularly speakers that are not bilaterally symmetrical, there is a sweet spot (a vertical plane in front of the speaker) where all the drivers are in perfect alignment. Dahlquists are a perfect example. Off-axis they don't sound nearly as good. Where these two planes intersect in the room -- left speaker and right speaker -- is where your "sweet spot" ideal listening distance exists. "Toeing in" your speakers reduces that distance, if your room is too small.

    With many other speakers, speakers where the drivers are not time-aligned, there is a sweet spot (a horizontal plane) where the drivers are in alignment. If you stand up or sit on the floor, the sweet spot disappears. (Some designs never do align, vertically, unfortunately...)

    Combine the vertical plane(s) with the horizontal plane and you get the worst of both worlds: a sweet spot literally an inch in diameter.

    The solution? Bilaterally-symmetrical time-aligned phase-coherent speakers. They put out a unified stereo waveform that fills the room, from any angle, at any height. There is no "sweet spot." The whole room becomes the sweet spot.

    The downside of course is that the room must be tuned properly, to reinforce uniform frequency dispersal. You don't want it too dead or too reflective. You don't want it too small (or too big I suppose). You don't want too many reflective surfaces in it.

    But the room is as important as any other component in your system, and should be treated with the same respect.

    Just my 2.
    The speakers I have listened to which are big phased arrays have the sweet spot but are dipolar because there is energy reflected from the rear. Sure I described an extreme which would be similar to in-ear phones where the signal comes from one direction. However, if the recording was binaural and simulated capturing the sound in an ideal set of ears in an ideal environment, that could be the purest. For those phased arrays, the sweet spot could be created by phasing and amplitude weighting elements of the array resulting in broader sweet spot without unwanted signals from undesired directions. I contend then that a multichannel system would be better if each speaker was closer to a beam for each speaker with the designer of the recording using an Atmos like 3D object mix.
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  5. #2205
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Membrane or electrostatic speakers -- like Magnepans, Quads and Martin Logans -- produce radiation going both ways, forward and rearward, simultaneously. Room effect then becomes critical to controlling phase cancellation. Because of the increased room effect, electrostatics can actually have a pretty critical sweet spot as well.

  6. #2206
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Membrane or electrostatic speakers -- like Magnepans, Quads and Martin Logans -- produce radiation going both ways, forward and rearward, simultaneously. Room effect then becomes critical to controlling phase cancellation. Because of the increased room effect, electrostatics can actually have a pretty critical sweet spot as well.
    Exactly. I listened to a very tall Magnepan for a friend. I expected them to be very “sweet spotty”, especially vertical. I think that the design weights the aperture to broaden the beam width vertically because it was not very narrow. They sounded awesome. My friend in CA bought them and had them shipped from MD to CA. He had big planar speakers before from a CA small maker. He loves these.
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  7. #2207
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    The woofers in my Snell A2 got blown.
    I bought new woofers, and got a tremendous bottom, actually a little too much of a good thing.
    Then I bought a new premp, tube, ear 864, and a lot of things sounded a lot better. More details, more microdynamics, space especially the midrange - But not the bottom, and the top seemed to roll of a bit. Listening to Animals as Leaders drums was a bit of a pain.
    I have biwired my speakers, and so I bought 2 set of Van den Hul cables https://www.vandenhul.com/product/th...-halogen-free/ and will let my Monster cables go to the cable cemetery.
    Suddenly the bass is tight and deep, and I can hear things happening I never noticed before.

    This is fun.

  8. #2208
    Orange Tick Squasher Buddhabreath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    The woofers in my Snell A2 got blown.
    I told my wife that and she slapped my face and threatened to leave me...
    The combined fortunes of the world's 26 richest individuals reached $1.4 trillion last year the same amount as the total wealth of the 3.8 billion poorest people.

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  9. #2209
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Well, you have the associations you deserve !

  10. #2210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    The woofers in my Snell A2 got blown.
    I bought new woofers, and got a tremendous bottom, actually a little too much of a good thing.
    Then I bought a new premp, tube, ear 864, and a lot of things sounded a lot better. More details, more microdynamics, space especially the midrange - But not the bottom, and the top seemed to roll of a bit. Listening to Animals as Leaders drums was a bit of a pain.
    I have biwired my speakers, and so I bought 2 set of Van den Hul cables https://www.vandenhul.com/product/th...-halogen-free/ and will let my Monster cables go to the cable cemetery.
    Suddenly the bass is tight and deep, and I can hear things happening I never noticed before.

    This is fun.
    How do you know that what actually happened is that you broke the subwoofers in. Sorry all those changes you made are likely superficial. My Polk towers started the same way, but after playing them for awhile, it sounds great. Perhaps even more break in will occur.
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  11. #2211
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate in another thread
    I am so annoyed by compression on the Animals as Leaders albums. Its really extreme!
    And the bass drum annoys me too. Cant play it loud on my stereo, sounds awfull.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Listening to Animals as Leaders drums was a bit of a pain.
    I have biwired my speakers, and so I bought 2 set of Van den Hul cables https://www.vandenhul.com/product/th...-halogen-free/ and will let my Monster cables go to the cable cemetery.
    Suddenly the bass is tight and deep, and I can hear things happening I never noticed before.
    So the problems you thought you heard with AaL was all in your speakers?

  12. #2212
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    How do you know that what actually happened is that you broke the subwoofers in. Sorry all those changes you made are likely superficial. My Polk towers started the same way, but after playing them for awhile, it sounds great. Perhaps even more break in will occur.
    Because the change to the better, especially in the bass area, happened the moment I changed the cables (yesterday) - and it was a big change.
    The change in the midrange and top was not quite as prominent, but I discovered details I had not noticed before, and staging, space is now much more well defined. Even my wife came in and said wow.

    The woofers was replaced about 2 months ago, the preamp about 1 month ago.
    The preamp was way better in everything-midrange'ish than my previous solid state, but it rolls a bit of in the top, and was a bit more voluminous in the bass. As if the woofer didn't stop moving fast enough.

    The cable thing is a bit mysterious - I thought that a cable mostly was a vehicle for the current moving from amp to speaker, and as 'we have learned' bass moves on the surface of the cable threads so the more threads in the cable, the thicker cable, the more and better bass, and silver is better for resolution of the top.
    But apparently what changes the sound perhaps even more is the way the cable affects the power amp so i functions easier, better. So the exact aloy, resistance, magnetism, configuration (thread pattern), eventual shield, distance between threads, insulation, etc. is important.

    I was nervous that I would get more bass due to the twice as thick vdh cables, but the opposite happened.

  13. #2213
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    So the problems you thought you heard with AaL was all in your speakers?
    I still think that the production of their albums is annoying.
    Overly compressed, and still the drums are too loud (and very busy), but its not like before the cable change.
    Now its ok to listen to a complete album at reasonable volume.

  14. #2214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Because the change to the better, especially in the bass area, happened the moment I changed the cables (yesterday) - and it was a big change.
    The change in the midrange and top was not quite as prominent, but I discovered details I had not noticed before, and staging, space is now much more well defined. Even my wife came in and said wow.

    The woofers was replaced about 2 months ago, the preamp about 1 month ago.
    The preamp was way better in everything-midrange'ish than my previous solid state, but it rolls a bit of in the top, and was a bit more voluminous in the bass. As if the woofer didn't stop moving fast enough.

    The cable thing is a bit mysterious - I thought that a cable mostly was a vehicle for the current moving from amp to speaker, and as 'we have learned' bass moves on the surface of the cable threads so the more threads in the cable, the thicker cable, the more and better bass, and silver is better for resolution of the top.
    But apparently what changes the sound perhaps even more is the way the cable affects the power amp so i functions easier, better. So the exact aloy, resistance, magnetism, configuration (thread pattern), eventual shield, distance between threads, insulation, etc. is important.

    I was nervous that I would get more bass due to the twice as thick vdh cables, but the opposite happened.
    The skin effect you are referring to is a higher frequency effect. The EQ effects of cables is linear and can easily be compensated for with a single point microphone based calibration in a high resolution processor or receiver. The subwoofers were played more just to examine the cables. The breakin is a huge dB versus frequency impact, cable effects are very small in dB.
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  15. #2215
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    "Skin effect" is in fact way supersonic, ultrasonic, way above anything humans could hear (100kHz if memory serves.)

  16. #2216
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate
    in the top, and was a bit more voluminous in the bass. As if the woofer didn't stop moving fast enough.
    What you describe is called damping, and can be affected by impedance mismatch, amplifier design, and either very long or very narrow gauge speaker wires. One of the effects of tiny speaker wires is high capacitance, where the positive and negative wires interfere with each other.

  17. #2217
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    What you describe is called damping, and can be affected by impedance mismatch, amplifier design, and either very long or very narrow gauge speaker wires. One of the effects of tiny speaker wires is high capacitance, where the positive and negative wires interfere with each other.
    I didn't have exactly tiny speaker wires before (brand: Monster cables), but it went away when I shifted to vdh (which admittedly was larger).
    Before I changed the woofers to new ones (exactly the same, directly from Snell USA) I didn't have this problem either. The power amp is the same, a Parasound HA 2200 II.

    HiFi's mysterious magical ways...or - I will encourage you all to experiment with cables...you might get lucky and improve your system relatively cheap compared to buying new amps, loudspeakers, etc.

    Second Hand speaker cables is usually a good deal. The price drops faster than most tings.

  18. #2218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    I didn't have exactly tiny speaker wires before (brand: Monster cables), but it went away when I shifted to vdh (which admittedly was larger).
    Before I changed the woofers to new ones (exactly the same, directly from Snell USA) I didn't have this problem either. The power amp is the same, a Parasound HA 2200 II.

    HiFi's mysterious magical ways...or - I will encourage you all to experiment with cables...you might get lucky and improve your system relatively cheap compared to buying new amps, loudspeakers, etc.

    Second Hand speaker cables is usually a good deal. The price drops faster than most tings.
    Switched + and - on one of the speakers?
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  19. #2219
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    "Skin effect" is in fact way supersonic, ultrasonic, way above anything humans could hear (100kHz if memory serves.)
    Thank you.
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  20. #2220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Switched + and - on one of the speakers?
    You mean as in out of phase?

    No

  21. #2221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    You mean as in out of phase?

    No
    What if one of the replacements were accidentally wired out of phase?
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  22. #2222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    What if one of the replacements were accidentally wired out of phase?
    I solded them myself with the help of a friend, and everything (cables & woofers) was triple checked and marked up when I took the old woofers out.
    But you are right, its crucial to be very minutious - and btw - since you asked, I have checked the cables again

    But if the woofers themselves had been wired out of phase (from the factory) the result would have been less bass and difuse orientation of the sound - also with the Monster cables (but on the contrary...) , and I dont see how that would have been corrected by switching to a better cable.

  23. #2223
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    I solded them myself with the help of a friend, and everything (cables & woofers) was triple checked and marked up when I took the old woofers out.
    But you are right, its crucial to be very minutious - and btw - since you asked, I have checked the cables again

    But if the woofers themselves had been wired out of phase (from the factory) the result would have been less bass and difuse orientation of the sound - also with the Monster cables (but on the contrary...) , and I dont see how that would have been corrected by switching to a better cable.
    In college, a friend had stacked Advents powered by Macintosh Amps which had a switch to invert phase. In that dorm room, bass was better and stronger when set to out of phase. It depends on the room, however that was a dorm room. He pissed off the guy in the room on the next floor above, even though the dorm was built in 1886 and real heavy duty.
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

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