The Audiophile Thread

[Garyhead]

What's the audiophile's take on having your turntable in your fireplace?

I joked about this upthread...but, in the past, I had my turntable at the fireplace to decouple it from the wood floor.....solved the problem of the tonearm skipping about when I walked by.

[progmatist]

Which one? I might need to buy me this

I have some Copland that pushes the DR limit. I have Flim & The BBs. I have three test CDs called "Sonic Booms" by Brad S. Miller. John Greenland's "Soft Robot" comes pretty close. But I take your question.

His 3rd. The first couple of minutes is basses and cellos playing so quietly, they'd be inaudible on a sound system plagued with 60 cycle hum.

[progmatist]

...but still in the linear range of the circuits. Self oscillations usually max out.

That would be true of any type of non-audio circuitry as well.

[Firth]

But a digital mastering might not be limited to max 20 khz like the CD is. DAT tapes were digital, but the limit was 100 khz.

My concern is not bandwidth, my concern is non-linear compression. Especially that implemented in the digital domain. Recording engineers that understand sound quality will convert to high quality analog and then use analog compression, if any at all. This approach could be a savior for record production and playback because playback has limitations on a lot of systems. I’m not referring to data compression. The problem with non-linear digital processing is that needs much finer steps in the amplitude domain than what is driven by linear SNR or quantization noise considerations.

IMO vinyl is an incredibly expensive way to get sound reproduction. If you believe in the vinyl sound, then have the pristine digital master converted to analog, lathed, vinyl pressed, and then played back on the best turntable. Then converted to DSD, and then played back with a 32 bit DAC. Now you have vinyl sound. I’ve listened to 24 bit Steven Wilson needle drops and don’t hear the advantage at all. I know someone will say that sucks too. But the bottom line is that vinyl is not necessary, but you could use vinyl processing if it makes you feel good.

[rcarlberg]

His 3rd. The first couple of minutes is basses and cellos playing so quietly, they'd be inaudible on a sound system plagued with 60 cycle hum.

Any particular recording?

[Firth]

Actually, the opposite is true. Music on digital media more often than not is brickwalled to death. If vinyl records were brickwalled, they'd be unplayable. It would be like running one's stylus over a saw blade.

Apart from a Shostakovich Symphony, there are very few examples of music utilizing the full dynamic range of a CD.

You describe non-linear compression as if it is brick walled or not. There have been multiple claims that the Genesis box sets mixed by Nick Davis were brick walled. Nick said 3 dB compression. What the effect of some percentage of peaks saturated and filtered will vary. The nice thing about analog compression is that small signals are not clobbered as they ride with large signals whose gain is instantaneously reduced. If a digital signal is clipped, all information is destroyed during the clip time. Digital compression doesn’t necessarily clip but it destroys signal.

[rcarlberg]

The nice thing about analog compression is that small signals are not clobbered as they ride with large signals whose gain is instantaneously reduced. If a digital signal is clipped, all information is destroyed during the clip time. Digital compression doesn’t necessarily clip but it destroys signal.

Do you have any references for this? It does not comport with my understanding of the difference between digital and analog compression. I could be wrong of course.

[moecurlythanu]

I could be wrong of course.

[Zeuhlmate]

And then there's the Chairman's three channel reel-to-reel rig

Does anybody know what brand his HiFi is?
Size of the amps indicates tubes, but I guess they would be way to hot...

[Zeuhlmate]

Sorry - 2 secs of googling

https://www.kcrw.com/music/articles/...c-hi-fi-system

[Firth]

Do you have any references for this? It does not comport with my understanding of the difference between digital and analog compression. I could be wrong of course.

This is a good article. https://www.izotope.com/en/blog/mixi...tal-world.html

[Firth]

Another: http://recordtech.com/prodsounds.htm

[Jerjo]

Sorry - 2 secs of googling

https://www.kcrw.com/music/articles/...c-hi-fi-system

Yep, the Hoffman folks had a thread on this system and that was what some of them concluded. It is assumed that with three channels he could review a recording with his voice in the center and the music in r/l. For stereo recordings it would just run through the right and left channels. It's a pretty expensive system by 60s standards, costing about $5K. These days that bowl of cigarettes would cost at least that.

[rcarlberg]

This is a good article. https://www.izotope.com/en/blog/mixi...tal-world.html
Another: http://recordtech.com/prodsounds.htm

Thanks. I'll reserve my comments since you've heard 'em all before

[progmatist]

My concern is not bandwidth, my concern is non-linear compression. Especially that implemented in the digital domain. Recording engineers that understand sound quality will convert to high quality analog and then use analog compression, if any at all. This approach could be a savior for record production and playback because playback has limitations on a lot of systems. I’m not referring to data compression. The problem with non-linear digital processing is that needs much finer steps in the amplitude domain than what is driven by linear SNR or quantization noise considerations.

IMO vinyl is an incredibly expensive way to get sound reproduction. If you believe in the vinyl sound, then have the pristine digital master converted to analog, lathed, vinyl pressed, and then played back on the best turntable. Then converted to DSD, and then played back with a 32 bit DAC. Now you have vinyl sound. I’ve listened to 24 bit Steven Wilson needle drops and don’t hear the advantage at all. I know someone will say that sucks too. But the bottom line is that vinyl is not necessary, but you could use vinyl processing if it makes you feel good.

Per track compression continues to be used to this day for *ALL* recordings. Not to compensate for any medium's shortcomings, but to combat one of a sound engineer's worst enemies: excessive dynamic range. If a song's vocals continually alternated between being so far behind the mix they can't be heard, and so far out front they drown everyone else out, that would annoy even the most casual and least technically savvy of listeners.

[Firth]

Per track compression continues to be used to this day for *ALL* recordings. Not to compensate for any medium's shortcomings, but to combat one of a sound engineer's worst enemies: excessive dynamic range. If a song's vocals continually alternated between being so far behind the mix they can't be heard, and so far out front they drown everyone else out, that would annoy even the most casual and least technically savvy of listeners.

Fine, but analog compression should be used.

[rcarlberg]

Fine, but analog compression should be used.

Ummm, you DO know, don't you, that digital compressors can emulate any compression algorithm ... including tube, analog tape, MOSFET, VCA, optical, and any other?

[progmatist]

Any particular recording?

To answer your question, after having to run out the door to catch the bus yesterday: The recording I own is Shostakovich's first 3 symphonies by Mark Wigglesworth and Netherlands Radio Philharmonic Orchestra.

Edit: this recording has received many complaints from people used to overly loud recordings, thinking the first couple of minutes or the 3rd are pure silence.

[Firth]

Ummm, you DO know, don't you, that digital compressors can emulate any compression algorithm ... including tube, analog tape, MOSFET, VCA, optical, and any other?

Yes, and would not chose digital compression for the reasons I have suggested. I particularly hate digital effects for guitars. The problem is that if the number of signal steps, determined by the number of bits for full dynamic range, creates a non musical effect. A tube for the most part will create overtones that are octaves from a basic tone. Digital compression will impact large low frequency signals and if a small high frequency signal is riding on that low and the digital gain compression quantizes the small signal, it will be effectively clipped. One could either quadruple the number of bits per sample and oversample, but I’ve never read that they do that. It is about the ear, and what I read about is use of analog compression, even if ADC and DAC are used.

[hFx]

Audio examples and some references please!

[progmatist]

Yes, and would not chose digital compression for the reasons I have suggested. I particularly hate digital effects for guitars. The problem is that if the number of signal steps, determined by the number of bits for full dynamic range, creates a non musical effect. A tube for the most part will create overtones that are octaves from a basic tone. Digital compression will impact large low frequency signals and if a small high frequency signal is riding on that low and the digital gain compression quantizes the small signal, it will be effectively clipped. One could either quadruple the number of bits per sample and oversample, but I’ve never read that they do that. It is about the ear, and what I read about is use of analog compression, even if ADC and DAC are used.

Many professional studios do in fact still have banks of analog compressors.

[hFx]

Many professional studios do in fact still have banks of analog compressors.

Yes for colouring, the same way as the IK Multimedia article describes. They have sonic "personalities" that behaves in a good way to certain instruments, or to an entire mix, to "nicely" fit the content to the limited dynamic range of the general playback system.

Like such: https://ask.audio/articles/7-excelle...re-compressors

[progmatist]

Yes for colouring, the same way as the IK Multimedia article describes. They have sonic "personalities" that behaves in a good way to certain instruments, or to an entire mix, to "nicely" fit the content to the limited dynamic range of the general playback system.

Like such: https://ask.audio/articles/7-excelle...re-compressors

It's the same with analog synths. One would think they should all sound the same, but they all have a unique tone and timbre all their own.

A while ago, a friend of mine bought some mod kits for various effects pedals, which I installed for him. It's amazing to me how a simple thing like swapping out metal film capacitors for mylar film caps can drastically alter and improve the sound of an overdrive pedal.

[Garyhead]

Here's a pretty good Explanation of "Quads per Channel." If the source is Don Cheadle.....it MUST be Fact!

https://youtu.be/La3U41b0WSU

[Zeuhlmate]

Does any body here have any experience with the EAR YOSHINO 864 preamp - how does it sound?