Thread: The Audiophile Thread

  1. #1801
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    But try this instead >>>

    Wire the + leg of the cable to the tweeter + binding post, and the - leg of the cable to the woofer - binding post. Then jump to the other + and - binding posts. No idea why this works either but it seems to make a hearable difference. Of course, you should experiment and see if you hear anything at all. This costs you nothing so why not have some fun and try it.
    You're simply wiring the tweeter out-of-phase.

    It would sound better if your tweeter was improperly wired in the first place. And in a non-phase-coherent arrangement this sort of thing can happen.

  2. #1802
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    rcarlberg, you still have not stated what your gear is and what PCs you have tried.
    What kind of crystals do you use?

  3. #1803
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    Here is something interesting I just found in my Pre Amp Manual, and it is from the early 90s so nothing new.

    http://www.vac-amps.com/manuals/Manual_CPA1_Mk3.pdf

    Please note that power cords will have a profound influence on the character of reproduced sound
    inspite of the CPA1's extensive power supply filtering and regulation, as will floating the ground
    conductor.

  4. #1804
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    What kind of crystals do you use?
    I don't use Crystals and I have not challenged anyone who does. So what do Crystals have to do with those who claim Audio tweaks don't work when they have never tried them?

  5. #1805
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    You're simply wiring the tweeter out-of-phase.

    It would sound better if your tweeter was improperly wired in the first place. And in a non-phase-coherent arrangement this sort of thing can happen.
    Or could be rewiring this Tweeter in phase. It depends on the type of crossover configuration, where some tweeters are wired 180 out of phase to match the time delay of the crossover. It's a harmless tweak.

  6. #1806
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    Check out this video
    Okay, I checked it out.

    Questions:
    • Why does he mention a "component-to-component noise filter" and then test the line voltage noise?
    • What are the units-of-measure on his little white noise speaker?
    • He mentions the unfiltered line noise reads "about 100" but when he plugs in his power conditioner it drops to 46.
    • Is this scale linear or logarithmic?
    • How does he propose that his line filter affects power sockets not connected to it?
    • Next he connects his speaker box through the filter and gets a reading of 0.1
    • He states this is 1000x better
    • So apparently the scale is linear?
    • Most sound measuring devices use the decibel scale, which is logarithmic
    • But as an engineer he should know that, right?
    • How does his speaker box make the noise audible, when most of it is UHF/RFI frequency (beyond human hearing)?
    Sorry, this video raises more questions than it answers for me. Unless he's INTENTIONALLY oversimplifying the problem of noise on the AC mains -- and not telling us he's oversimplfying it -- the whole thing reeks of a parlor trick.

    And, more to the point, it totally ignores the noise filtering built into every stereo component's power supply.

  7. #1807
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    The point the video made is that there is a clear and audible difference. I can't answer all your questions as I am not an EE or designer of such components.

    But like I posted 10 minutes ago, VAC suggests the use of After Market PCs "inspite of the CPA1's extensive power supply filtering and regulation, as will floating the ground
    conductor. "

    Why do you think Kevin Hayes would suggest that? He does not MFG or sell power cords.

    And when are you going to start answering questions as opposed to only asking them?

  8. #1808
    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    But try this instead >>>

    Wire the + leg of the cable to the tweeter + binding post, and the - leg of the cable to the woofer - binding post. Then jump to the other + and - binding posts. No idea why this works either but it seems to make a hearable difference. Of course, you should experiment and see if you hear anything at all. This costs you nothing so why not have some fun and try it.

    Sorry, but this is most likely a bad idea.

    A well designed speaker has a very specifically designed crossover. Among design parameters taken into consideration, are the order of the crossover and phase of the crossover, especially at the crossover point, and how even slight changes can effect speaker performance.

    Playing with the phase of one set of drivers in relation to the other drivers in the system, in opposition with what the speaker designer had designed for, would not, from my experience, have a positive effect.


    For example, the following image shows a hypothetical crossover point, where the dip at the crossover point is cancelled by a combination of rolloff and phase relations of the drivers, giving a flat response. By wiring the tweeter out of phase, (depending on how the crossover is designed) you may end up with a peak at the crossover point, or a dip.


    dad4bf7b77a43ec955a8806a59cab246045118a6.gif


    The other problem is, that some people (I am one) can hear the difference in absolute phase. If you have a positive pulse in signal, but the speaker driver is moving backwards (or vise versa, a negative pulse, speaker moving forward), instead of forward, this can make an audible difference. The perceived difference is that the speaker no longer images well in the frequency range handled by the out of phase driver. Images usually lose focus, depth, and ambience.

    So, reversing the absolute phase in the tweeter in relation to the other drivers, would have a negative effect in the imaging in the high frequencies.


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  9. #1809
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    The point the video made is that there is a clear and audible difference.
    If you listen to the AC mains.

  10. #1810
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    I don't use Crystals and I have not challenged anyone who does. So what do Crystals have to do with those who claim Audio tweaks don't work when they have never tried them?
    You're telling me you need to know what kind of equipment I use in order to determine if $60 power cords would do me any good.

    I'm telling you there is no such thing as magic. THAT's where the crystals reference comes in. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

  11. #1811
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    Or could be rewiring this Tweeter in phase. It depends on the type of crossover configuration, where some tweeters are wired 180 out of phase to match the time delay of the crossover. It's a harmless tweak.
    Phase is frequency dependent, and it's never as much as 180 out. There is no "time delay" in a crossover.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 01-23-2018 at 04:57 PM.

  12. #1812
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    You guys are all reading my wiring suggestion wrong. It is not out of phase. It's just that one leg of the wire is on the woofer binding posts and the other leg is on the tweeter binding posts. Not out of phase at all. You just jump from there to the other remaining binding post.
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  13. #1813
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    You guys are all reading my wiring suggestion wrong. It is not out of phase. It's just that one leg of the wire is on the woofer binding posts and the other leg is on the tweeter binding posts. Not out of phase at all. You just jump from there to the other remaining binding post.
    What then, is it supposed to accomplish?

  14. #1814
    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    You guys are all reading my wiring suggestion wrong. It is not out of phase. It's just that one leg of the wire is on the woofer binding posts and the other leg is on the tweeter binding posts. Not out of phase at all. You just jump from there to the other remaining binding post.
    Yeah, I get it. One wire comes from the amp to the tweeter, then jumps to the corresponding woofer, then the other wire comes from the amp to the woofer, and the jumper is set to the tweeter.

    I thought the point of bi-wiring is that the drivers are connected directly to the amp; and using a cable like the Canare 4S11 Cable, which has four strands of wire; two to the amp channel, four to the speakers.
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  15. #1815
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    You guys are all reading my wiring suggestion wrong. It is not out of phase. It's just that one leg of the wire is on the woofer binding posts and the other leg is on the tweeter binding posts. Not out of phase at all. You just jump from there to the other remaining binding post.
    Then what does that configuration accomplish?

  16. #1816
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Phase is frequency dependent, and it's never as much as 180 out. There is no "time delay" in a crossover.
    When I was replacing a tweeter in a speaker (not mine) I asked the rep on the phone if the blue lead (there wad a blue and a white wire) was positive or was it the white wire. He said the blue was, but the tweeter should be wired out of phase for the type of crossover (it was a Kenwood speaker) and I believe it was a 2nd order crossover.

  17. #1817
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    Then what does that configuration accomplish?
    Apparently it's another example of magic. Maybe the extra 2" of cable the signal has to traverse, at the speed of light, makes an audible difference if you have Golden Ears?

  18. #1818
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    When I was replacing a tweeter in a speaker (not mine) I asked the rep on the phone if the blue lead (there wad a blue and a white wire) was positive or was it the white wire. He said the blue was, but the tweeter should be wired out of phase for the type of crossover (it was a Kenwood speaker) and I believe it was a 2nd order crossover.
    That's possible, but not for the reason the rep gave.

    I'm assuming the Kenwood speaker was a bookshelf speaker, with both drivers mounted on the front board? That places the tweeter voice coil an inch or so in front of the woofer's voice coil (depending on the woofer's depth) so putting the tweeter out-of-phase with the woofer would create a phase-coherent waveform at certain frequencies, where the wavelength is a multiple of the differences in voice coil alignments.

  19. #1819
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    A well designed speaker has a very specifically designed crossover. Among design parameters taken into consideration, are the order of the crossover and phase of the crossover, especially at the crossover point, and how even slight changes can effect speaker performance.
    yep

    By wiring the tweeter out of phase, (depending on how the crossover is designed) you may end up with a peak at the crossover point, or a dip... reversing the absolute phase in the tweeter in relation to the other drivers, could have a possibly negative effect in the imaging in the high frequencies. (italics indicate embellishments by myself)
    but maybe that appeals to them. I believe the term is called "euphonic" (sp?) Of course, depending on the slope of the crossover, you could risk damage to the tweeter I suppose, if indeed you introduce a big enough peak at cut-off

  20. #1820
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    That's possible, but not for the reason the rep gave.

    I'm assuming the Kenwood speaker was a bookshelf speaker, with both drivers mounted on the front board? That places the tweeter voice coil an inch or so in front of the woofer's voice coil (depending on the woofer's depth) so putting the tweeter out-of-phase with the woofer would create a phase-coherent waveform at certain frequencies, where the wavelength is a multiple of the differences in voice coil alignments.
    It was a standard two-way and phase coherence was the term that was used (it was years ago so I could be fuzzy on the brand), so phase shift was my mistake. I was replacing a blown soft-dome tweeter for a friend (but not a factory replacement).

  21. #1821
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    F@ck cables. Andrew Jones leaves the dinosaurs in the dust:
    http://www.avsforum.com/best-of-ces-...ered-speakers/
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  22. #1822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowfax View Post
    After procrastinating a bit before ordering any more Pangea cables, someone pointed me to these American made cables by Maze Audio.

    I just ordered one in Black/Blue directly from the Maze Audio site where the same cable is $59.95. I should get it in a week and will update my findings.
    Well I won't be getting the Maze Eden cord. After I placed my order and paid, I got a tracking number that kept telling me there was no package to track. When I emailed this morning just to make sure I had a good number, the guy cancels my order, refunds my money, and sends me a F'ed up email back telling me that I am a Demanding Customer and will never be satisfied....WTF

    It turns out that Maze Audio is really just a guy and his kids making cables on the kitchen table anyway. But what an ass.

    May have to try a Cullen

  23. #1823
    What about Bluejean Cables, the "Monster" killers?
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  24. #1824
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberrybrick View Post
    What about Bluejean Cables, the "Monster" killers?
    They don't do Power Cables

  25. #1825
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    Then what does that configuration accomplish?
    In my original post I said I don't understand how this can make a difference, but I've heard it - it does in some cases. No, not all. But it's simple and easy to try and costs you nothing. Maybe you will hear something and maybe not, but what have you got to lose besides a little time?
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