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Thread: The Audiophile Thread

  1. #1551
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    No compression is "natural."

    Digital limiting (modern) is far less abrasive than overmodulation distortion from the old analog days. This is why many old analog recordings are "punched up" to 0 dB for remastering, making them sound louder and by all accounts "improved." While it is true that digital has ten times the dynamic range of analog, in practice nobody prefers this much dynamic range; in fact the trend over the lifespan of digital recording has been to DECREASE the amount of dynamic range in recordings, due to the new capacity to ride 0 dB without distortion.

    A separate but related issue which you seem to be conflating is "tube distortion" versus "transistor distortion." Tubes distort with even harmonics, which is why Jimi Hendrix liked to turn his amp all the way up and stand right next to it. The edge of feedback was somewhat musical.

    Transistors distort with odd harmonics (and originally all kinds of ugly square waves) which sounds anything but musical. Modern digital limiters do not clip the tops of the waveforms to make square waves anymore. Don't mix up the warmth of overdriven tubes (with lots of octaves and fifths mixed in) with modern production techniques.
    Digital limiting is identical to BJT (not FET) transistor clipping, perhaps even worse. If you don't see that then do a histogram of amplitudes of those 2 cases, of course after doing A/D conversion linearly. That is precisely the problem with the first Clapton CD I bought in 84. What I'm referring to is that a analog continuous compression function is far less irritating than a discontinuous compression such as limiting or clipping. Whether the A/D clips, a transistor clips or the digital amplitude is clipped in the digital domain, it does matter.
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  2. #1552
    Member markinottawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    "Middle of the road" is not atrocious. The guy may not have been very adventurous or worldly in his musical tastes, but he cared enough about his pedestrian music to play it over a fine system.
    As someone who listens to all kinds of weird crap I am in no positiion to comment on someone's choice in music.

    That's why I added surprising in the next reply. ELO, Phil Collins, Elton John, Sade, Sting, Bob Segar can be examples of MOR. There was nothing of that calibre there. It was like going through a thrift store record bin with nothing but mint records.

    I guess I should not have used MOR and a descriptor which to me means James Last, 101 Strings, Longines Symphonette etc

  3. #1553
    Quote Originally Posted by R_burke View Post
    I'd like to hear how you like it in your home system. I'm interested in getting something to play hi-rez digital files on my home system and don't want to spend the $500 - $2,000+ that home media servers go for these days.
    I got the FiiO K5 dock, which will connect via regular RCA cables. This is a DAC unit, so the sound quality is pretty great. The headphone amp on it is really great as well.

  4. #1554
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Sadly, this is not uncommon among audiophiles. Because it's not about the music.

    It's about the SOUND.
    While it is true, that some audiophiles are more into the SOUND than the music, those audiophiles are not likely to have an entire collection of made up of things like Corey Hart, Bryan Adams etc.

    Why would someone that cares more about the SOUND have a collection of poorly recorded, middle of the road crap? The type of audiophiles you are referring to, would have a collection comprised mostly of recordings on audiophile labels, without regards to the music on them.

    On another subject, why is is sad that for some audiophiles, the SOUND is the most important thing?

    As someone that is into the music first, I can still see the appeal some audiophiles have of being into audio with the end goal being how accurately it can reproduce music, and not the music itself. There are times when I will spend a good part of the day just making changes to my system to see if it improves the sound, without regards to the music I am listening to. While not as fun as a good listening session, these times are fun in their own way.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  5. #1555
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    why is is sad that for some audiophiles, the SOUND is the most important thing?

    As someone that is into the music first, I can still see the appeal some audiophiles have of being into audio with the end goal being how accurately it can reproduce music, and not the music itself. There are times when I will spend a good part of the day just making changes to my system to see if it improves the sound, without regards to the music I am listening to. While not as fun as a good listening session, these times are fun in their own way.
    Oh, good point. Pursuit of audio excellence can be a goal in itself.

    Just like somebody with a lot of money can buy a professional camera system and know nothing about photography.

    I think it's sad because there are so many real (but poor) music lovers in the world who would give their left testicle (or ovary) for a system like that.

  6. #1556
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    When that Athens Audiophile video made the rounds over a decade ago there was a quote that stuck with me. A gentleman said, "some people say that when the music is playing, the equipment disappears. I think that when I'm playing music on my system, I disappear. There is only the music." I know that state of mind and there are few things better than that state.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  7. #1557
    OK, I have an update on my system settings and setup. First, I decided to try the LFO (subwoofer) outputs again and reset my speaker settings to reflect the two front towers and large center channel I actually have.
    Second, I used some bonus money from work to get the Oppo UDP-203. Hy previous Oppo DVD unit had a drawer malfunction, and I decided having it repaired was not worthwhile. This way, I can do away with my Panasonic Blu-ray player, and have one heavy duty unit to play all of my discs, inluding all of my 5.1 surround discs.
    So far, the UDP-203 lives up to all the hype. One caveat here is I don't have a 4K TV/Display. It works fine with my 40" Samsung flatscreen (LED I think), but I can't try it with 4K discs for movies.
    I did watch Rogue One on Blu-ray, and it was fantastic. Regular DVDs like the Pink Floyd Pulse look no better than my Panasonic Blu-ray put out, but that is more limitation of the format than the player.
    The sound quality of 5.1 music Blu-rays (Yes- Fragile for example), DVD-Audio (ELP - ELP) and SACD (Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here) were slightly better than my previous OPPO (which was pretty amazing). The sound quality of a regular stereo CD was substantially better (than my Oppo DVD), and the best sound I have ever had from a CD (and I've used a number of players that didn't cost 1K or more).
    Another feature it has is it will play FLAC and WAV files. I'm assuming it can do this with either discs or one of the three USB drives. Two of the USB ports are on the rear, and one is conveniently in front.
    I will be testing that feature today to see how well it works. I believe the USB is 3.0, but I will be using a 2.0 stick. Not sure if this will affect performance.
    There are several other features that make this unit worth the 570.00 price tag.
    First, it has wonderful heavy duty construction. My main complaint about the 971HD DVD was it was cheap plasitc and the disc drawer sometimes malfunctioned.
    Second, the boot up is faster than any player I have yet seen. The main reason, though, is that it does not include any network programs like NetFlix or Hulu. I am not sure if Oppo plans to add these later (they often do software upgrades) or not. If these features are important to you, you may wish to consider another Blu-ray/4K player.
    Third, the On Screen display is the coolest and fastest I have ever seen. Each screen has a cool background picture, and the ability to make changes is incredibly easy.
    Fourth, the remote is much nicer and heavier than previous remotes. It has motion-activated backlighting, which means you don't have to hunt for a back lighting button in the dark. The layout is pretty intuitive, so you won't have to spend a huge amount of time digging through the extensive manual.
    One other thing is their online support via email. I had a question regarding changing the default output setting for DVD-Audio and SACD, which they answered in less than 24 hours. You can call them also during Pacific Time office hours (they are in California).

    If you are considering this but are not absolutely sure, check out some of the unboxing videos on YouTube. There are many.
    I've purchased quite a few new electronics over the years, and I've never seen a product as thoughtfully packaged as this one.
    Last selling point (and I'm not getting anything for this) - Oppo has a 30 day money back satisfaction guarantee. Of course, there are caveats like you much return everything in perfect condition with all of the original packaging, and return shipping (about 20.00 from Atlanta to Oppo) is not free.

    OK, I'm about to check out the USB drive with some HDTracks files (FLAC and WAV). I'll report back later on how that went.

  8. #1558
    The Flash drive test went much better than expected. The interface is instantaneous, and the display is very clean. One remote feature that does not work with this, though, is directly selecting a track number. You do have to use the forward or back button.
    The sound quality of the FLAC file (Carole King's Tapestry) was not as good as I had hoped, but was still as good or better than a 320K MP3.
    The sound quality of the 96/24 Close To The Edge File was exceptional, definitely better than my CD.
    The next major test for this unit is how well it will handle a large hard drive (1 TB). If that works as well as the unit does with the USB drive, this will probably be the last media player I ever purchase.

  9. #1559
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    Why is it OK for someone who owns a Ferrari or Lamborghini to drive it slowly in the right lane all the time and maybe take it to a club meet to show it off and have pride in others looking at them sitting in it but never take it to the track to open it up, but someone who proclaims themselves to be an audiophile can't say they also enjoy the look and sound of their equipment? Maybe it's the people who don't understand pride in their equipment who are the bigots.

    Perhaps we should just stop judging people based on our own prejudices and accept them for who they are and respect them - whatever their personal agenda is ... playing music, playing equipment, showing off, being an audiophile by their own definition of the word.
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  10. #1560
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    When that Athens Audiophile video made the rounds over a decade ago there was a quote that stuck with me. A gentleman said, "some people say that when the music is playing, the equipment disappears. I think that when I'm playing music on my system, I disappear. There is only the music." I know that state of mind and there are few things better than that state.
    There is a C.S. Lewis quote (which he lifted from one of his students) that states "We read to know that we are not alone". I think it applies here "We LISTEN to know that we are not alone." For some people, music communicates far more deeply than the written word.

  11. #1561
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    So is the Oppo acting as a DAC for the FLAC files? Are there inputs to patch in a computer where you could just feed them in from a computer or an external hard drive?
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  12. #1562
    One USB port in front and two USB ports in back. Also, there is a port for a wireless server dongle. It is networkable.
    I will be checking how well it functions with a hard drive through one of the rear USB ports within the next several weeks.

  13. #1563
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    Why is it OK for someone who owns a Ferrari or Lamborghini to drive it slowly in the right lane all the time and maybe take it to a club meet to show it off and have pride in others looking at them sitting in it but never take it to the track to open it up, but someone who proclaims themselves to be an audiophile can't say they also enjoy the look and sound of their equipment?
    Who said that it was okay to drive a Ferrari 20 mph?

    That's as big a waste of money as the audiophile who doesn't like music.

  14. #1564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jubal View Post
    OK, I have an update on my system settings and setup. First, I decided to try the LFO (subwoofer) outputs again and reset my speaker settings to reflect the two front towers and large center channel I actually have.
    Second, I used some bonus money from work to get the Oppo UDP-203. Hy previous Oppo DVD unit had a drawer malfunction, and I decided having it repaired was not worthwhile. This way, I can do away with my Panasonic Blu-ray player, and have one heavy duty unit to play all of my discs, inluding all of my 5.1 surround discs.
    So far, the UDP-203 lives up to all the hype. One caveat here is I don't have a 4K TV/Display. It works fine with my 40" Samsung flatscreen (LED I think), but I can't try it with 4K discs for movies.
    I did watch Rogue One on Blu-ray, and it was fantastic. Regular DVDs like the Pink Floyd Pulse look no better than my Panasonic Blu-ray put out, but that is more limitation of the format than the player.
    The sound quality of 5.1 music Blu-rays (Yes- Fragile for example), DVD-Audio (ELP - ELP) and SACD (Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here) were slightly better than my previous OPPO (which was pretty amazing). The sound quality of a regular stereo CD was substantially better (than my Oppo DVD), and the best sound I have ever had from a CD (and I've used a number of players that didn't cost 1K or more).
    Another feature it has is it will play FLAC and WAV files. I'm assuming it can do this with either discs or one of the three USB drives. Two of the USB ports are on the rear, and one is conveniently in front.
    I will be testing that feature today to see how well it works. I believe the USB is 3.0, but I will be using a 2.0 stick. Not sure if this will affect performance.
    There are several other features that make this unit worth the 570.00 price tag.
    First, it has wonderful heavy duty construction. My main complaint about the 971HD DVD was it was cheap plasitc and the disc drawer sometimes malfunctioned.
    Second, the boot up is faster than any player I have yet seen. The main reason, though, is that it does not include any network programs like NetFlix or Hulu. I am not sure if Oppo plans to add these later (they often do software upgrades) or not. If these features are important to you, you may wish to consider another Blu-ray/4K player.
    Third, the On Screen display is the coolest and fastest I have ever seen. Each screen has a cool background picture, and the ability to make changes is incredibly easy.
    Fourth, the remote is much nicer and heavier than previous remotes. It has motion-activated backlighting, which means you don't have to hunt for a back lighting button in the dark. The layout is pretty intuitive, so you won't have to spend a huge amount of time digging through the extensive manual.
    One other thing is their online support via email. I had a question regarding changing the default output setting for DVD-Audio and SACD, which they answered in less than 24 hours. You can call them also during Pacific Time office hours (they are in California).

    If you are considering this but are not absolutely sure, check out some of the unboxing videos on YouTube. There are many.
    I've purchased quite a few new electronics over the years, and I've never seen a product as thoughtfully packaged as this one.
    Last selling point (and I'm not getting anything for this) - Oppo has a 30 day money back satisfaction guarantee. Of course, there are caveats like you much return everything in perfect condition with all of the original packaging, and return shipping (about 20.00 from Atlanta to Oppo) is not free.

    OK, I'm about to check out the USB drive with some HDTracks files (FLAC and WAV). I'll report back later on how that went.
    I considered the Oppo 203 but in my audio architecture it just makes zero sense that a player should have a DAC. A receiver/processor should have a DAC, or even more purely the speaker itself. The DSP that corrects for room effects is in the receiver. If they turn the Oppo into a powerful calibration capability, then I would have gone for it. Instead I purchased a Sony UBP-X800 for $300:

    Playback Capability
    DISC
    BD-ROM, CD (CD-DA), CD-R/-RW, DVD+R, DVD+R Double Layer, DVD+RW, DVD-Audio, DVD-R, DVD-RAM, DVD-R Dual Layer, DVD-RW, DVD-Video, SA-CD (SA-CD / CD) Playback, Stereoscopic 3D (profile 5), Ultra HD Blu-ray™
    VIDEO FORMAT
    AVCHD Disc Format, Motion JPEG (.mov, .avi), MPEG-1 Video/PS (.mpg, .MPEG, .mkv).VOB, .VRO, MPEG-2 Video/PS, TS (.mpg, .MPEG, .m2ts, .mts, .mkv).VOB, .VRO, MPEG-4/AVC (.mov, 3gp, .3g2, .3gpp, .3gpp2, .flv), MPEG-4 AVC (.mkv, .mp4, .m4v, .m2ts, .mts), VC1 (.m2ts, .mts, .mkv), WMV9 (.wmv, .asf, .mkv), Xvid (.avi, .mkv)
    AUDIO FORMAT
    AAC (.AAC, .mka), AIFF (.aiff, .aif), ALAC (.m4a), Dolby® Digital (.ac3, .mka), DSD - DSDIFF/DSD (.dff, .dsf), FLAC (.flac, .fla), HEAAC v.1/v.2/level2, LP cm (.mka), Vorbis, WMA10 Pro, WMA9 Standard (.WMA)
    PHOTO FORMAT
    BMP (.bmp), GIF (.gif), JPEG (.jpg, .jpeg), MPO MPF 3D (.mpo), PNG (.png)
    http://www.sony.com/electronics/blu-...specifications


    Note that support for DVD-Audio. It has 3 HDMI outs, one is audio only that goes to my receiver. Another goes directly to the 4k HDR TV.
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  15. #1565
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Wonderful that players are starting to support all kinds of formats. Long overdue!

  16. #1566
    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    I considered the Oppo 203 but in my audio architecture it just makes zero sense that a player should have a DAC. A receiver/processor should have a DAC, or even more purely the speaker itself. The DSP that corrects for room effects is in the receiver. If they turn the Oppo into a powerful calibration capability, then I would have gone for it. Instead I purchased a Sony UBP-X800 for $300:

    Playback Capability
    DISC
    BD-ROM, CD (CD-DA), CD-R/-RW, DVD+R, DVD+R Double Layer, DVD+RW, DVD-Audio, DVD-R, DVD-RAM, DVD-R Dual Layer, DVD-RW, DVD-Video, SA-CD (SA-CD / CD) Playback, Stereoscopic 3D (profile 5), Ultra HD Blu-ray™
    VIDEO FORMAT
    AVCHD Disc Format, Motion JPEG (.mov, .avi), MPEG-1 Video/PS (.mpg, .MPEG, .mkv).VOB, .VRO, MPEG-2 Video/PS, TS (.mpg, .MPEG, .m2ts, .mts, .mkv).VOB, .VRO, MPEG-4/AVC (.mov, 3gp, .3g2, .3gpp, .3gpp2, .flv), MPEG-4 AVC (.mkv, .mp4, .m4v, .m2ts, .mts), VC1 (.m2ts, .mts, .mkv), WMV9 (.wmv, .asf, .mkv), Xvid (.avi, .mkv)
    AUDIO FORMAT
    AAC (.AAC, .mka), AIFF (.aiff, .aif), ALAC (.m4a), Dolby® Digital (.ac3, .mka), DSD - DSDIFF/DSD (.dff, .dsf), FLAC (.flac, .fla), HEAAC v.1/v.2/level2, LP cm (.mka), Vorbis, WMA10 Pro, WMA9 Standard (.WMA)
    PHOTO FORMAT
    BMP (.bmp), GIF (.gif), JPEG (.jpg, .jpeg), MPO MPF 3D (.mpo), PNG (.png)
    http://www.sony.com/electronics/blu-...specifications


    Note that support for DVD-Audio. It has 3 HDMI outs, one is audio only that goes to my receiver. Another goes directly to the 4k HDR TV.
    Yeah, I was surprised it has DVD-Audio, since that was a competing format for SACD.in surround sound music. I do notice it does not have the analogue outputs required for a number of DVD-Audio and older SACDs, at least to play the high-rez files without loss.
    I find PCM conversion to be very lossy with these formats. I also shy away from Sony in general as I had bad experiences with one of their surround receivers and also one of their TVs. Planned obsolescence seems to be taken very seriously at Sony. Both of those devices developed problems shortly after the one year warranty expired.

    I hope it works well for you.

  17. #1567
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jubal View Post
    Yeah, I was surprised it has DVD-Audio, since that was a competing format for SACD.in surround sound music. I do notice it does not have the analogue outputs required for a number of DVD-Audio and older SACDs, at least to play the high-rez files without loss.
    I find PCM conversion to be very lossy with these formats. I also shy away from Sony in general as I had bad experiences with one of their surround receivers and also one of their TVs. Planned obsolescence seems to be taken very seriously at Sony. Both of those devices developed problems shortly after the one year warranty expired.

    I hope it works well for you.
    Why do you think analog outputs are needed to avoid loss. Does it really matter where the DAC is? As long as its a good DAC. My pioneer Elite Receiver has 32 bit 192 KHz DACs which were as good as what Oppo was selling at the time I bought it. The latest has the same:
    The highly acclaimed 192 kHz/32-bit ESS SABRE32 Ultra DAC (ES9016S) is adopted to deliver exceptional sound, with ultra-low distortion and high signal-to-noise ratio. It offers jitter-free performance for an astounding audio reproduction with rich deep bass, maximizing the full potential of Pioneer’s Class D3 amplifiers.

    Furthermore, without highly accurate room calibration and EQ, 5.1 doesn't meet it's full potential to disappear. Therefore keeping the signal as HD digital thru that process is important. The Pioneer up converts DVD-Audio and SACD bitstreams to 32 bit 192 KHz PCM, without loss. The conversion to analog doesn't happen until after room compensation which includes precise time alignment. As a result all of the speakers work together as if they are a single speaker.

    BTW at the time I bought my Pioneer it used the same Qudeo Marvel video processing as the Oppo.

    As for Sony TV reliabilty, I have owned 5 CRTs before this 930e LCD and all were great. When Sony finally made a VHS machine, it was a tank, built solid. Others I had before were crap. I have a Sony ES receiver that has cranked for 10 years and I use it as a side system. The XBR and Wega TVs, and ES stuff is good. The lower cost stuff is likely no better than any other.
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  18. #1568
    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Why do you think analog outputs are needed to avoid loss. Does it really matter where the DAC is? As long as its a good DAC. My pioneer Elite Receiver has 32 bit 192 KHz DACs which were as good as what Oppo was selling at the time I bought it. The latest has the same:
    The highly acclaimed 192 kHz/32-bit ESS SABRE32 Ultra DAC (ES9016S) is adopted to deliver exceptional sound, with ultra-low distortion and high signal-to-noise ratio. It offers jitter-free performance for an astounding audio reproduction with rich deep bass, maximizing the full potential of Pioneer’s Class D3 amplifiers.

    Furthermore, without highly accurate room calibration and EQ, 5.1 doesn't meet it's full potential to disappear. Therefore keeping the signal as HD digital thru that process is important. The Pioneer up converts DVD-Audio and SACD bitstreams to 32 bit 192 KHz PCM, without loss. The conversion to analog doesn't happen until after room compensation which includes precise time alignment. As a result all of the speakers work together as if they are a single speaker.

    BTW at the time I bought my Pioneer it used the same Qudeo Marvel video processing as the Oppo.

    As for Sony TV reliabilty, I have owned 5 CRTs before this 930e LCD and all were great. When Sony finally made a VHS machine, it was a tank, built solid. Others I had before were crap. I have a Sony ES receiver that has cranked for 10 years and I use it as a side system. The XBR and Wega TVs, and ES stuff is good. The lower cost stuff is likely no better than any other.
    Apparently the DAC in my Pioneer VSX-1019AH is not nearly as good as the one in the Oppo UDP-203. The difference between the Oppo's conversion and the 1019's conversion is night and day.
    I've bought quite a few Sony products over the years, including headphones (good), mini-disc (good for the time), CD players (good), Dream Machine (garbage). The last two Sony items I purchased were a 32" CRT (my first "large" TV) and a Sony surround receiver. These were definitely on the cheaper end of their product lines. The TV tube burned out exactly 5 days after the 1 year warranty expired. The timing of the loss of the center channel on the receiver was very similar.

    I've purchased two Pioneer receivers since then and still use both (one is over 10 years old).

    I went with the Oppo UDP-203 primarily because I wanted to play DVD-Audio, SACD, and DTS and have a heavy duty (metal casing, not plastic) unit.
    he only hassle is when I play the 5.1 audio music discs, I have to access the HDMI 1 on the player and recceiver to show the display on my TV. Then I have to select my 5.1 analog output on the receiver and turn off the TV.

    Perhaps one day I will be able to afford a better receiver with great DACs like yours. As for now, I have to make do.

  19. #1569
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    The Audiophile Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jubal View Post
    Apparently the DAC in my Pioneer VSX-1019AH is not nearly as good as the one in the Oppo UDP-203. The difference between the Oppo's conversion and the 1019's conversion is night and day.
    I've bought quite a few Sony products over the years, including headphones (good), mini-disc (good for the time), CD players (good), Dream Machine (garbage). The last two Sony items I purchased were a 32" CRT (my first "large" TV) and a Sony surround receiver. These were definitely on the cheaper end of their product lines. The TV tube burned out exactly 5 days after the 1 year warranty expired. The timing of the loss of the center channel on the receiver was very similar.

    I've purchased two Pioneer receivers since then and still use both (one is over 10 years old).

    I went with the Oppo UDP-203 primarily because I wanted to play DVD-Audio, SACD, and DTS and have a heavy duty (metal casing, not plastic) unit.
    he only hassle is when I play the 5.1 audio music discs, I have to access the HDMI 1 on the player and recceiver to show the display on my TV. Then I have to select my 5.1 analog output on the receiver and turn off the TV.

    Perhaps one day I will be able to afford a better receiver with great DACs like yours. As for now, I have to make do.
    I don't know about your Pioneer, but I do know if you use analog outputs to the Pioneer, and use the Pure Direct mode, no time alignment or phase correction will happen in 5.1. And as the manual says:

    1 • Phase matching is a very important factor in achieving proper sound reproduction. If two waveforms are ‘in phase’, they crest and trough together, resulting in increased amplitude, clarity and presence of the sound signal. If a crest of a wave meets a trough, then the sound will be ‘out of phase’ and an unreliable sound image will be produced.
    • The PHASE CONTROL feature is available even when the headphones are plugged in.
    • If your subwoofer has a phase control switch, set it to the plus (+) sign (or 0°). However, the effect you can actually feel when PHASE CONTROL is set to ON on this receiver depends on the type of your subwoofer. Set your subwoofer to maximize the effect. It is also recommended you try changing the orientation or the place of your subwoofer.
    • Set the built-in lowpass filter switch of your subwoofer to off. If this cannot be done on your subwoofer, set the cutoff frequency to a higher value.
    • If the speaker distance is not properly set, you may not have a maximized PHASE CONTROL effect. • The PHASE CONTROL mode cannot be set to ON in the following cases:
    – When the PURE DIRECT mode is switched on.
    – When the MULTI CH IN input is selected.
    – When the HDMI audio output parameter is set to THROUGH in Setting the Audio options on page 64.

    If I was you I would at least try the HDMI transfer with MCACC calibration. The quality of the DAC and ADC is in the noise compared to amplifier distortion and acoustics. BTW that amplifier is a Class D, which means even an analog signal is quantized into pulses of width proportional to the amplitude. This is in effect digitization and it's distortion swamps the DAC, not even talking speaker distortion. DACs really make a difference with headphones. BTW, the Pioneer does have 24 bit 192khz processing and DACs.
    Last edited by Firth; 05-04-2017 at 08:02 AM.
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  20. #1570
    I just purchased a home minidisc player, something I have been meaning to do for years.

    I used to use portable ones back in the late 90's, early 2000's primarily for recording live gigs as a reference for when I used to write reviews. I found these recordings very useful to listen back to the next day or so when reviewing.

    The great advantage of the portable units for me was that they were very small and easy to secrete in a pocket, set it to record, select long play, lock the unit , pin a little mic to your lapel and you could forget about it for the rest of the gig.

    Hence, over the years I built up quite a collection of live recordings. But the portable players eventually gave up the ghost, and I went to less gigs after that for various reasons and also stopped writing reviews. I always had the intention in the back of my mind to purchase a home player but never did, until now.

    I had a quick sort through the discs last night, I have gigs from Yes, TD, Magenta, Flower Kings, Jadis, PFM, Jon Anderson, various UK festivals, and a whole load of unmarked discs which I have yet to check.

    Sound quality is variable, but to be honest I was never that fussed about that because they were really only for reference purposes. But its good to be able to listen to them in the comfort of my own home at last.
    I only clicked on it because I thought it was going to be something more interesting...

  21. #1571
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Just got a bluray from Netflix for La La Land. WTF, the soundtrack is just Dolby Digital, not lossless DTS master or Dolby True HD.

    The Tull SW remix to 5.1 is DTS 96/24, and that is not lossless. The SW stereo remix is 96/25 LPCM at 4.5 MBps. The 5.1 DD is 1.5 Mbs, kiss my ass Ian. That stereo remix definitely has a sweeter high end.
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  22. #1572
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Just got a bluray from Netflix for La La Land. WTF, the soundtrack is just Dolby Digital, not lossless DTS master or Dolby True HD.

    The Tull SW remix to 5.1 is DTS 96/24, and that is not lossless. The SW stereo remix is 96/25 LPCM at 4.5 MBps. The 5.1 DD is 1.5 Mbs, kiss my ass Ian. That stereo remix definitely has a sweeter high end.
    Yeah, I don't understand why Tull/Ian Anderson insist on lossy Dolby Digital as opposed to blu-ray or even MLP for DVD-Audio for the surround mixes. I know that the cost of manufacturing was listed as an excuse, but I would think if King Crimson and Marillion could afford to issue 5.1 surround mixes on blu-ray that Jethro Tull could do it. Still, I have to say that most of those Tull surround mixes sound pretty good for what they are...but lossless would make those box sets definitive.

  23. #1573
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    The Audiophile Thread

    Here is an interesting fact, Smart TVs that stream and can be used to output the audio to the receiver, do so at no better quality than Dolby Digital. Some of the TV apps produce Dolby Digital Plus which to my ear is a significant step towards lossless. So using the same app streamed from my Sony UHD bluray player with the Audio only HDMI output to the receiver, I get Dolby Digital Plus. Watched Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country and it looked great and sounded great. It was released at the 25 year anniversary of the tv series start. We are now in 50th anniversary year. Tv series to reboot soon.

    I expect Sony to release a firmware update which enables Dolby Vision and better sound. The player was outputting a 4k upscaled video signal from an app. It looked good but could be tweeked.


    "Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end" - Spock, "Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country"
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  24. #1574
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    ... an album that I turned Rottersclub onto (Sylvian Luc's Young and Fine, with his Trio Sud - one of the best produced non-ECM jazz albums of the new millennium)
    Just downloaded this, based on your recommendation.

    I'm afraid I have to disagree somewhat.
    1. It's basically mono, with all three instruments mixed right on top of each other (listen on headphones!)
    2. There is no air, no sense of the room, around the acoustic guitar. It's very close-miced. Good high end on the mic, but the image is entirely flat.
    3. The bass is a big mushy mess -- nice low end but very little mid-range, presence or string sound. It's an electric, running into a small amp, so it has no sense of size at all. And it's mixed way too loud.
    4. The micing on the drums is pretty bad -- listen to the beginnings of "Darn That Dream," "Avenue des Diables Bleus," "Young and Fine" and "Con Alma" -- the toms sound like they're miced from INSIDE the drum, with a very hollow, resonant sound. And the cymbals apparently aren't separately miced at all? They're distant and indistinct.
    The music choice is nice, and I'm not sorry I downloaded it. But a recording showcase it ain't.

    IMNSHO

    And just to spin a little positive energy, check out John Abercrombie's "Gateway" (1975) -- same exact instrumentation, but a proper recording.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 07-07-2017 at 01:25 AM.

  25. #1575
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Been playing with this site all evening -- it works for me now, last time I mentioned it I couldn't get it to work -- there are a number of tests available here which explain, better than words can, the limits of human hearing.
    http://www.audiocheck.net/

    I'd love to hear how other people do with it. For me it was eye-opening (maybe "ear-opening"?)

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