Thread: The Audiophile Thread

  1. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by trurl View Post
    ^^^
    I think the question was about why newer albums have less material on each side (even at 33 1/3) and of course the answer is decreased groove density, which helps the low end. Of course your answer is correct as well but at 45 rpm you'd get even less on a side! What, maybe 10-12 minutes max really for a good 45 rpm side? AFAIK going over 18 minutes at 33 1/3 is generally a bad idea, and I think most are more comfortable capping out at around 15.

    Many reissues on vinyl have come out as 1 disk 33 versions, and 2 disk 45 versions.

    I made the assumption that he was referring to the 2 disk, 45 versions.

    My bad...
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  2. #1027
    I assume at 45 you get improved high end response and maybe lose a little on the bottom end... which do you tend to prefer??

  3. #1028
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    That's not the only reason 45 lp sounds better than 33. all else being equal.
    Sure, but the question was about splitting albums into two discs and putting less music on a side. That's groove density (as Trurl pointed out), not RPMs.

    But as to Trurl's contention that 45rpm might result in worse bass response, I can't think of any reason it would. Quite the opposite, in fact -- with more vinyl per second you should be able to encode more and bigger stylus wiggles -- not less. You also get higher highs as you rightly stated (but also more surface noise I suppose).
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 08-03-2015 at 09:09 PM.

  4. #1029
    Well, I was guessing; I know there's issues that arise with half-speed mastering and there's always some kind of trade-off but I don't know enough about the physics of vinyl playback to know if you give anything up at 45 that you gain back at 33. I assume that originally 45 rpm was considered the way to go for good fidelity and 33 1/3 came in for the simple economics of putting more music on a side, but again that's just a guess.

  5. #1030
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Sure, but the question was about splitting albums into two discs and putting less music on a side. That's groove density (as Trurl pointed out), not RPMs.

    But as to Trurl's contention that 45rpm might result in worse bass response, I can't think of any reason it would. Quite the opposite, in fact -- with more vinyl per second you should be able to encode more and bigger stylus wiggles -- not less. You also get higher highs as you rightly stated (but also more surface noise I suppose).
    The amount of surface noise per inch is the same, but on a 45 the high frequency abrasion noise is shifted up in spectrum and much of it is shifted out of the range of hearing. Putting the groves farther apart allows for larger signals relative to the noise also. I think the digital process which shifts the spectrum up prior to half speed mastering has got to be more accurate than the analog techniques used in the past. If a wavelength for a 1 kHz wave is cut at half speed, it will be at 2 kHz when played back at full speed, thus the spectrum needs to be shifted down by a factor of 2. Digital which can have a low frequency response is ideal for spectrum shifting. There are huge difficulties dealing with RIAA EQ with half speed mastering.
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  6. #1031
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    My understanding of half-speed mastering is that there are two advantages. First and foremost, as you stated, by cutting at half speed all your tape hiss and electronics noise is doubled in frequency when playing back, making it almost inaudible. Second, when you cut intricate high-frequency signals at half speed, you have a better chance that the cutting head actually gets all the frequencies into the vinyl without distortion.

    Of course, that means it's possible, sometimes, to cut more high-frequency signal into a platter than the needle can pull out again at normal speed, so there's art involved in knowing how far to push it.

  7. #1032
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    The amount of surface noise per inch is the same, but on a 45 the high frequency abrasion noise is shifted up in spectrum and much of it is shifted out of the range of hearing.
    Exactly, "surface noise per inch" so if your vinyl is playing at 45 rpm you're getting more surface to scrape per second, leading to more surface noise, right?

    I don't know about the frequency of the surface noise being shifted out of the range of hearing. It's pretty low to begin with, and speeding it up by half still puts it in the midrange somewhere, I think.

  8. #1033
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    You could say the noise is white, but white noise when played from a speaker sounds to the ear as more power in the highs versus the lower frequency because of the gain of a radiator is inverse to wavelength squared. It's not really white, but certainly impulsive. I also suspect that most turntables have less wow and flutter at higher angular momentum of 45 rpm. It's definitely an art, I read a Hoffman forum on half speed mastering which had a lot of opinions and ideas.
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  9. #1034
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  10. #1035
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    You could say the noise is white, but white noise when played from a speaker sounds to the ear as more power in the highs versus the lower frequency because of the gain of a radiator is inverse to wavelength squared. It's not really white, but certainly impulsive.
    "The gain of a radiator is inverse to wavelength squared" - huh? If by "radiator" you mean "speaker," there is no "gain" in a speaker. The very definition of "white noise" is equal distribution of energy over the audible spectrum -- not "more power in the highs." Pink noise is inversely proportional to the frequency -- meaning there is LESS energy in the higher frequencies, not more. For the life of me I cannot figure out what your statement was intending to say.

    Not that surface noise is anything like white noise anyway -- it's simply the sound of a needle being scraped through 1500 feet of plastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    I also suspect that most turntables have less wow and flutter at higher angular momentum of 45 rpm.
    But still immeasurable.

  11. #1036
    Member Brian Griffin's Avatar
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    What do you audiophiles use on your computers for sound?

    I've had various Cambridge Audio, Logitech, and Yamaha sub / satellites over the years but nothing touches the Klipsh

    Years ago I had a 5.1 Promedia set that sadly died a few years into it, but I just this week replaced a very good THX / Logitech set with a new Klipsh ProMedia 2.1

    Just as fantastic as I remember the older set, tons of bottom end and horns worthy of the Klipsh reputation in the satellites

    Best $149 I've spent in a while

    BG
    "When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."

  12. #1037
    Those Klipsch are f*king amazing. I have heard the Bose (don't know the model) and was impressed. I tend to think most of what Bose makes is garbage but I liked these. Of course, discussing computer speakers on the low end of three figures is, by definition, not audiophile so be ready to be yelled at.

  13. #1038
    Member Brian Griffin's Avatar
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    Well, in all fairness I didn't call them audiophile, rather I asked what the audiophiles use

    Fucking amazingl is an understatement, that's a LOT of sound and power for $149

    BG
    "When Yes appeared on stage, it was like, the gods appearing from the heavens, deigning to play in front of the people."

  14. #1039
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    No worries. I think it's fine if you run computer speakers (though I'll never say anything nice about any BOSE product). I run my office PC into a small stereo system that has a pair of rebuilt Infinity bookshelf speakers and a Polk sub. It's no where near the system in my living room but I think it gives me far better sound than any computer speaker system I've heard. Eventually I'll add a DAC and better connections but money is tight right now.
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  15. #1040
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    I looked into making a "mini" system for my computer about a year ago. I heard a bunch of those small powered speakers, but I didn't like what I read about them. They are all too likely to have their amplifier die within a year or two. Plus they are about $300 retail.

    So I picked up a small SMSL "SA-36A Pro", it's a T-amp (http://smsl-audio.com/index.php?c=msg&id=1252&). Cheap enough at about $50-60. I also bought a small HIFIMEDIY.com Sabre based DAC (http://hifimediy.com/DACs/ready-made-dacs/U2-DAC). All this feeds into a pair of Acoustic Research 215PS speakers I had lying around (http://www.amazon.com/Acoustic-Resea.../dp/B00A3GY3I6). These tiny speakers are perfect for a desktop and sound pretty amazing nearfield and I only paid $50 a pair for them when 47 St photo was closing in NYC some years ago.
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  16. #1041
    Anyone have thoughts on Parasound gear? Halo line?
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  17. #1042
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    I have owned a Halo A21 for the past 7 or 8 years. It was worked flawlessly in that time is a great performer. I was thinking about changing to a Classé for any synergies that I might reap as I am running one of their pre-amps, but I couldn't justify the cost given how solid the Parasound is.

    Highly recommended.
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  18. #1043
    ^thank you!

    I purchased the P5 and A21. Will report back in a couple of weeks.
    Last edited by strawberrybrick; 08-21-2015 at 02:50 PM.
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  19. #1044
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    Just curious if anyone here playing digital files has tried the Pono Music Player (the software, not the device). I see it's made by JRiver.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  20. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    Just curious if anyone here playing digital files has tried the Pono Music Player (the software, not the device). I see it's made by JRiver.
    I don't like the Pono software. I never use it for my player at all, unless there is an update. It's basically a stripped down version of JRiver, which I also used briefly a while back; they offer 30 day free trials. I'm so used to using Foobar that I didn't really make much time to use it properly. But many people swear by it.

  21. #1046
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    Been looking through this thread on the Hoffman forum. Ye gods, some of these systems are works of art.

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thread...art-15.426744/
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  22. #1047
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    Wondering about what the audiophile people think about the production of Spock's Beard's "The Oblivion Particle".
    On the verge of indecision
    I'll always take the roundabout way

  23. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Wondering about what the audiophile people think about the production of Spock's Beard's "The Oblivion Particle".
    I've heard mixed things about it but I'm moving away from the more well known bands and looking for ones I don't know much about.
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  24. #1049
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    What seems to be a good distance for speaker separation meaning left and right. I'm sure room size and how close you sit will have something to do with the answer. Also, if a cabinet is in between the speakers, how far in front of this cabinet should the speakers be placed?
    The older I get, the better I was.

  25. #1050
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I know there are specific formulas for placement but I just try for creating a equilateral triangle with the speakers angled in just slightly towards the listener. Then my wife fucks things up by moving the furniture...
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

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