The Audiophile Thread

[Staun]

Like this?

http://www.audioeden.com/tannoy-west...-se/4533040554

Note the weight is just over 300 lbs each! And don't worry, the price shown is in Canadian pesos.

Thanks for the heads up on the price, I was getting alittle nervous about that. Yikes!! But, this brought up another point. My surround system for the television, the speakers, are bi-wired. I'm told, again, if this is possible it should be done. However, my music system, speakers, are not bi-wired and bless me if I can tell the difference. What's the skinny on bi-wiring?

[Staun]

Design over sound. Small speakers have come a long way but they're still no match for a proper speaker system.

I'm sure I'm remembering the days when stereo stores were on almost every block. You could walk in and see speakers in every size and design. Those systems would take up lots of room but now, those stores are long gone. My town for instance has only one stereo store and I'm guesing the products it sells may be abit pricy for most. I don't like the idea that they don't have competition but what they sell is the real deal and they are knowledgeable.

[jkelman]

Like this?

http://www.audioeden.com/tannoy-west...-se/4533040554

Note the weight is just over 300 lbs each! And don't worry, the price shown is in Canadian pesos.

Makes those Tetra 606s look positively cheap by comparison

[jkelman]

Design over sound. Small speakers have come a long way but they're still no match for a proper speaker system.

Without wanting to belabour, until you've heard the Tetra 222s - with and without the 111 subs - you're making a statement that may be largely true, but is not completely so...

[jkelman]

You know what, you are right. I have removed my sig file. My apologies to everyone I offended.

I will TRY not to be such a dick in the future, though it will be a struggle.

The first sign on the road to recovery is being aware that you have a problem...

[BobM]

Comments made without proper experience and exposure, especially absolutes about anything in audio without actually hearing it, are just ways for a person to show their true ignorance.

There is no doubt that there are great systems both with and without large diameter drivers. Hell, anything can sound great with the proper engineering and setup. So statements like "Small speakers have come a long way but they're still no match for a proper speaker system" should just be seen as another absolute from a person best listened to with a large dose of salt.

[Staun]

Again, from a pure laymen, I can't get away from the idea that the size driver you have is the size sound you'll get, subs not withstanding.

[Staun]

Any comments on bi-wiring of speakers?

[BobM]

Oh Oh - we are getting into cable discussions. Very dividing topic. The short answer - sometimes yes, sometimes no.

The theory is to separate the treble signal from the bass signal, allowing the wire to only focus on one. But since the wire doesn't know anything it still carries the full signal. And the amp doesn't know anything so it still passes the full signal to each wire, and still has to do what an amp does and amplify the whole signal. Of course, more wire = more gauge so perhaps there is a benefit there.

However, that being said, my speakers damn near REQUIRE bi-wiring. There is a noticeable and very real difference to be heard. But my speakers are one of those few exceptions, since they are hugely inefficient and have a very low impedance (= exceptionally difficult to drive). They are Apogee panels.

I would say if you have the cash and/or an extra set of wires available, then try it. If not then don't spend the extra cash on this. There are far better places to upgrade your system first.

[rottersclub]

My speakers have double binding posts which allow for bi-wiring or bi-amping. I've never tried it so I can't comment. The idea of bi-wiring is a bit iffy to me, whereas I get the idea behind bi-amping. My understanding is that it is highly dependant on the speaker design and a lot of it has to do with the crossover.

[Staun]

Oh Oh - we are getting into cable discussions. Very dividing topic. The short answer - sometimes yes, sometimes no.

The theory is to separate the treble signal from the bass signal, allowing the wire to only focus on one. But since the wire doesn't know anything it still carries the full signal. And the amp doesn't know anything so it still passes the full signal to each wire, and still has to do what an amp does and amplify the whole signal. Of course, more wire = more gauge so perhaps there is a benefit there.

However, that being said, my speakers damn near REQUIRE bi-wiring. There is a noticeable and very real difference to be heard. But my speakers are one of those few exceptions, since they are hugely inefficient and have a very low impedance (= exceptionally difficult to drive). They are Apogee panels.

I would say if you have the cash and/or an extra set of wires available, then try it. If not then don't spend the extra cash on this. There are far better places to upgrade your system first.

You mean I have not one but two stupid amps? Grrrrr.......

[Pr33t]

You mean I have not one but two stupid amps? Grrrrr.......

Anyone want to talk interconnects?

[Staun]

Anyone want to talk interconnects?

Bob informed me that my amps are brainless so they don't deserve better interconnects.

[BobM]

My speakers have double binding posts which allow for bi-wiring or bi-amping. I've never tried it so I can't comment. The idea of bi-wiring is a bit iffy to me, whereas I get the idea behind bi-amping. My understanding is that it is highly dependant on the speaker design and a lot of it has to do with the crossover.

Try this, it sounds fishy (I have never tried it) but others have reported a noticeable improvement. Most people with 2 sets of binding posts on the speakers usually run the speaker wire to either the bass posts, and use a jumper to the tweeter posts, or visa versa.

Try running the + leg of the speaker cable to the + on the bass post, and the - of the speaker cable to the - of the tweeter post. Then jump to the opposite posts from there. You could also do - of bass and + of tweeter (and jump) to see if that makes a difference to your ears. It has something to do with a more effective use of the groundplane in your crossover, I believe. I know, I know, should make no difference but I believe and trust the people that told me to try it. I bi-wire so this doesn't apply for me.

Bi-amping is only successful if you have 2 identical stereo amps. Otherwise you need an active crossover to balance the output form 2 different amps. That gets expensive very quickly.

[LASERCD]

Anyone want to talk interconnects?

What do you want to talk about? If I get involved in the conversation its going to get expensive.

[Jerjo]

My dealer tossed in interconnects that listed at a couple hundred bucks but I know that's just the beginner's stage. So bring it on Ken. I'm eager to see how far down this rabbit hole I can go next time I switch my gear.

[Pr33t]

What do you want to talk about? If I get involved in the conversation its going to get expensive.

I'm aware of that by now

What's the general consensus on the minimum you have to get to really improve the sound? I'm a skeptic by default until I've heard something I can actually judge, and was wary of just what I would hear from upgrading. I dipped my toes in the water with a pair of Kimber PBJs to start a few months back. I did feel there was an immediate boost in bass and an airiness of soundstage over the basic RCAs I had. What would the benefits of a higher end cable be with my system?

[LASERCD]

Interconnects/speaker cables/power cords...all things which using common sense shouldn't make a difference. Unfortunately they really do. I've played around with a number of different brands over the years. Currently I'm using one of the more expensive lines from Transparent Audio but I wouldn't recommend them. Sonically they are spectacular (at least in my system) but the price point will induce a divorce. I guess the good part is the system will sound awesome. The bad part is you will only get to visit your kids every other weekend.

From a more practical point of view I will make a recommendation. For many years before I moved over to Transparent, I used a full loom of cables manufactured by Cerious Technologies. The company is run by Bob Grost, a mad scientist that recently uprooted himself from Michigan and moved out to Phoenix. I've known Bob since 1994 and used his speakers (and then cables) exclusively up until 3-4 years ago. Originally Bob's company was called Unity Audio and he made outstanding speakers. Ultimately this morphed into Cerious Technologies and he continues to manufacturer cutting edge speakers and cable designs.

Bob's cables are giant killers. His prices are exceptionally reasonable. He doesn't look to gouge. His website is antiquated: www.cerioustechnologies.com. He never updates the damn thing. The best way to reach out to Bob is via Audiogon. His seller name is simply rgrost and he often has some cables for sale. If not you can simply email him through Audiogon or his company website. I think you will be shocked at how reasonable they are but more importantly how good they are. They also happen to be kind of sexy looking.

As a point of comparison it took me upgrading to Transparent Audio Reference XL speaker cable to find something that bettered Bob's design. There was about a $12,000 difference in price. In fact I'm still using one of Bob's interconnects between my phono stage and preamp.

If you decide to reach out to Bob mention my name. You never know where it might get you. (BTW - Bob's a bit of a prog head. Big Gordon Giltrap fan).

[rcarlberg]

Any comments on bi-wiring of speakers?

What is "bi-wiring"?

You have two leads to each driver, period end of story. Are you talking about running separate wires for positive & negative? That's negated by a decent gauge paired-wire.

The theory is to separate the treble signal from the bass signal, allowing the wire to only focus on one. But since the wire doesn't know anything it still carries the full signal. And the amp doesn't know anything so it still passes the full signal to each wire, and still has to do what an amp does and amplify the whole signal. Of course, more wire = more gauge so perhaps there is a benefit there.

Exactly right -- but I'm having difficulty picturing how you would "bi-wire" if you did not "bi-amp"....

[rcarlberg]

Bob's cables are giant killers. His prices are exceptionally reasonable.

Nano Reference Interconnect (unshielded), $1200 1M
$200 each additional foot
Shielding add $200

No comment. I'm trying to not be mean, I really am. . Guess we have differing ideas of what's "reasonable."

[rcarlberg]

The first sign on the road to recovery is being aware that you have a problem...

Yeah, I'm ashamed to admit it was a bit of a wake up call for me.

Quoting someone else's stupidity is not clever. I shan't be doing it again

[BobM]

I can also handily recommend these cables - interconnects, speaker cables, power cords - from Triode Wire Labs

http://triodewirelabs.com/

Pete is a friend of mine and a power engineer. He's put a lot of research and development into all his cables and the results show. I've tried a lot at all price points and these certainly hold their own and more with the big boys, and for a reasonable price (to an audiophile). The best part is he has a money back guarantee within a 30 day trial period. If you want to try them out, here's your chance. He doesn;t get many returns, so be forewarned.

[rcarlberg]

Try this, it sounds fishy (I have never tried it) but others have reported a noticeable improvement. Most people with 2 sets of binding posts on the speakers usually run the speaker wire to either the bass posts, and use a jumper to the tweeter posts, or visa versa.

Try running the + leg of the speaker cable to the + on the bass post, and the - of the speaker cable to the - of the tweeter post. Then jump to the opposite posts from there. You could also do - of bass and + of tweeter (and jump) to see if that makes a difference to your ears. It has something to do with a more effective use of the groundplane in your crossover, I believe. I know, I know, should make no difference but I believe and trust the people that told me to try it. I bi-wire so this doesn't apply for me.

Putting the tweeter out of phase with the woofer?

[Staun]

I can also handily recommend these cables - interconnects, speaker cables, power cords - from Triode Wire Labs

http://triodewirelabs.com/

Pete is a friend of mine and a power engineer. He's put a lot of research and development into all his cables and the results show. I've tried a lot at all price points and these certainly hold their own and more with the big boys, and for a reasonable price (to an audiophile). The best part is he has a money back guarantee within a 30 day trial period. If you want to try them out, here's your chance. He doesn;t get many returns, so be forewarned.

The Spirit cables are in my range and I like the idea of your money back. Have you heard his RCA type cables and what differences have you noticed? I would start with these.

[BobM]

Putting the tweeter out of phase with the woofer?

instead of this

bp 1.jpg

Do this

bp2.jpg