Thread: The Audiophile Thread

  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Staun View Post
    It's funny that people like me who have always listened to vinyl, seem to have a kind of rejection of subs. But, younger people of today can't seem to do without them. Maybe it's because of the club scene or that a great deal of music such as rap/hip hop, seems to be made for systems with subs attached. Through all the pounding, how can one enjoy the music? I know it's not that simple but there certainly has been a change in what people listen to music for.
    Well, thanks, but at 59 I guess I don't qualify. I can't speak for other subs, but with the Tetras, they aren't to add massive amounts of bass to the room (the 222s, despite their small size, manage to provide plenty); they just ute rally warm up and fill up the room...even at reasonable/low volumes.

    They sounded as great listening to an ECM record like Ralph Towner's Solstice as they did Steven Wilson's remix of XTC's Nonsuvh as they did Trio Mediaeval's latest...and the bass pedals on Steve Hackett's Genesis Revisited 2 also sounded that much bigger. Just took the natural sound of the 222s and fleshed IT out that extra bit more.

    But II think its a misconception that subs are just for creating massive bottom end. Used moe judiciously, they allow music at lower volumes to feel fatter, rounder, warmer...at least that's my experience as, living on a condo apartment (albeit with cement walls and floors so I can crank louder than in more modern apartments that aren't built that way), I can't exactly blast the shit outta them.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    If they sound like live music, that's a good thing. And rare.
    Not live music necessarily...music that sounds as it was recorded. If you ever have the chance to go into a studio and hear a mixed album, pre-mastering, in the control booth, you'll hear what I mean.

    It's about replicating the music as it was recorded - and, of course, ultimately mixed and mastered....the downside being, as is the case with any good speaker, they'll hopefully make well-recorded/mastered music sound great...but they'll also reveal the flaws in poorly recorded/mastered music.

    So I am not expecting my Tetras to do much for Soft Machine's Third....:which is why it's not likely to be chosen as a subject for my Rediscovery column

  3. #303
    Member Staun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    But II think its a misconception that subs are just for creating massive bottom end. Used moe judiciously, they allow music at lower volumes to feel fatter, rounder, warmer...at least that's my experience as, living on a condo apartment (albeit with cement walls and floors so I can crank louder than in more modern apartments that aren't built that way), I can't exactly blast the shit outta them.
    I agree with this point. it just seems that almost everywhere I go, sports bar, a club or a friends house, I'm overwhelmed with bass. Low frequencies should be an ingredient, not the whole soup.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  4. #304
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Modern rap and hip hop had their origin as dance music, where the beat is all that matters.

  5. #305
    Member Staun's Avatar
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    Are there any interesting ideas on speaker placement in relationship to TT's. CD players don't seem to be affected as much.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  6. #306
    Member Staun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Modern rap and hip hop had their origin as dance music, where the beat is all that matters.
    I would think Techno falls in there as well.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  7. #307
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Staun View Post
    Are there any interesting ideas on speaker placement in relationship to TT's. CD players don't seem to be affected as much.
    Avoid feedback.

  8. #308
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    Avoid dance music
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  9. #309
    Member Staun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Avoid feedback.
    You said it. I know people who have fought with the problem of where to place their rig. Either the room is too long or too wide. I think alot of people like to place their equipment against a wall and for the seating area as well. Sometimes this isn't possible and they find themselves sitting in the middle of the room. Might be tough getting used to. I mentioned techno because I've heard more of it than rap/hip hop. It doesn't seem to be as drenched in low frequencies as the former.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  10. #310
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    Mass is your friend when talking analogue. Mass loaded shelves, mass loaded plinth, and a mildly loaded audiophile (uuurp).
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  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    Mass is your friend when talking analogue. Mass loaded shelves, mass loaded plinth, and a mildly loaded audiophile (uuurp).
    That's heavy, man.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Staun View Post
    It's funny that people like me who have always listened to vinyl, seem to have a kind of rejection of subs. But, younger people of today can't seem to do without them. Maybe it's because of the club scene or that a great deal of music such as rap/hip hop, seems to be made for systems with subs attached. Through all the pounding, how can one enjoy the music? I know it's not that simple but there certainly has been a change in what people listen to music for.
    I listen to a bunch of vinyl (along with various digital formats) also, but I have had subs in many of my systems over the years. Actually, since vinyl does not have quite the bass that digital formats have, subs may be more helpful.


    There is a difference between an accurate sub that is designed to reproduce the low frequencies that most full range speakers are not capable of. And the kind of sub you are referring to that rap or techno listeners use.

    I use subs in my system for a number of reasons. When I listen to orchestral music, I want the bass drums, tympanies and the lowest notes that massed double basses can reach, reproduced. Unless you get into the upper strata of speakers (with associated price and size to match), speakers just are unable to do the job. But even with prog and jazz, there are enough low frequencies to benefit from subs. Stand up basses go down to 31hz, synths lower.

    When there are subs in the system handling the lowest octave, the woofer in the full range speaker does not have to work so hard. This cleans up the mid and upper bass quite a bit. Also, the amp that is driving the full range speakers does not have to work as hard (low frequencies take a lot of power), so it will clip less, therefore lowering distortion.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  13. #313
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    The lowest note achievable on Moog Taurus pedals has a fundamental of 32 Hz, but of course all that "fatness" and character is several octaves above that.

  14. #314
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Automotive subwoofers have inexplicably become respected, and people who don't know any better think a single booming note is high fidelity.

  15. #315
    Member Staun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    There is a difference between an accurate sub that is designed to reproduce the low frequencies that most full range speakers are not capable of. And the kind of sub you are referring to that rap or techno listeners use.

    .
    I have no doubt and remain convinced that I've heard subs badly instituted and used. Maybe it's a matter of what you grew up with and used to. In the '80's there were no subs. Well, at least at my level of listening. Your stand alone speaker had to do the job and that's all you knew. Guess I've gotten used to a subless listening experience. I'm forced to live a subless life.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Automotive subwoofers have inexplicably become respected, and people who don't know any better think a single booming note is high fidelity.
    Rattling trunks and all. Yuck!!
    The older I get, the better I was.

  17. #317
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    When your trunks rattle, you're sitting too close.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    The lowest note achievable on Moog Taurus pedals has a fundamental of 32 Hz, but of course all that "fatness" and character is several octaves above that.
    That's BS, I just quoted an expert that defined the lowest corner frequency as 20Hz. Furthermore you demonstrated your lack of knowledge of electronics. I saw the Musical Box re-recreate the Lamb at Keswick. The bass pedals could be felt as much as heard, just like the quote I gave said, given enough amplification.
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    I listen to a bunch of vinyl (along with various digital formats) also, but I have had subs in many of my systems over the years. Actually, since vinyl does not have quite the bass that digital formats have, subs may be more helpful.


    There is a difference between an accurate sub that is designed to reproduce the low frequencies that most full range speakers are not capable of. And the kind of sub you are referring to that rap or techno listeners use.

    I use subs in my system for a number of reasons. When I listen to orchestral music, I want the bass drums, tympanies and the lowest notes that massed double basses can reach, reproduced. Unless you get into the upper strata of speakers (with associated price and size to match), speakers just are unable to do the job. But even with prog and jazz, there are enough low frequencies to benefit from subs. Stand up basses go down to 31hz, synths lower.

    When there are subs in the system handling the lowest octave, the woofer in the full range speaker does not have to work so hard. This cleans up the mid and upper bass quite a bit. Also, the amp that is driving the full range speakers does not have to work as hard (low frequencies take a lot of power), so it will clip less, therefore lowering distortion.
    That's a great point, which is why I run my 5 speakers on small, and send all lows to my two subwoofers built into each of the two front towers. These speakers are 4 ohms which place a greater demand on my receiver, but that's aleviated by 2 140 watt subwoofer amps.
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  20. #320
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    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  21. #321
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Moog Taurus I Bass Pedal Synthesizer, why do they sound so big?
    http://www.retrosynth.com/~analogued...s/moog_taurus/
    do a search for 20 Hz. The modulation produces very low frequencies. A photo of the set used by Genesis.
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  22. #322
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    The modulation produces very low frequencies.
    LFO modulation is not the same as a fundamental. The fact is, Taurus pedals go down to the C three octave below middle C, which is 32 Hz.

  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    LFO modulation is not the same as a fundamental. The fact is, Taurus pedals go down to the C three octave below middle C, which is 32 Hz.
    No shit. The point here is that 20 Hz response is necessary to hear or experience the real thing.
    [They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.

  24. #324
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerjo View Post
    A defense of being an audiophile
    nothing to defend really, in spirit. The fact is that a lot of audiophiliacs have earned the bad rep themselves with their head-shaking haughty derision towards anything they consider low-fi.

    I have no problem with people spending however much money they want for gear. Audiophiles do amuse me in that they are in constant pursuit of perfection. Its the guys who spend thousands of dollars on their systems still fret over minutiae details, which can only be fixed by newer gear or esoteric tweaks that make me wonder if they are listening to music or the gear; they love to show it off and play snippets of music, passages that highlights their systems abilities. Not that that is such a bad thing, except when an audiophile wants to shit on any gear he doesn't own or tells you you're not really hearing the music on that crappie mass market stuff you have.

  25. #325
    Member Emeritus (A.M.P.) rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    No shit. The point here is that 20 Hz response is necessary to hear or experience the real thing.
    You DO realize, don't you, that the Taurus pedals had no speaker of their own, they had to be plugged into an amplifier with speaker to be heard?

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