The Audiophile Thread

[Staun]

Wow, the Tetra series of screamers sound rather interesting. What is it about these monitors that turns heads? Of course the price points are far beyond that of mortal man.

[Firth]

There is so much flat out wrong here I don't know where to begin. Listen to Brother Jubal.

You have no clue. Transmission line subwoofers are not common ported designs.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acous...nsmission_line

[rcarlberg]

You have no clue.

Someone wise once said, "You have proven yourself ignorant."

[Firth]

R

Firth-
Ports emphasize bass in a particular frequency range, usually peaking around 120-150 hz. Sure they provide much greater output, but the longer the port, the narrower the range of the peak, which causes coloration of the sound. Efficient bass requires larger surface area. If all you want it "thump", then maybe a 10" sub will do it for you. I like smooth lower bass lines and not too much of a lower midrange peak (which is common in most speakers). There is a balance that can be achieved where the "felt" sound does not turn the bass lines to mush.
Your statement about bigger subs bending is oversimplification. All speakers require a certain degree of stiffness (no phallic jokes please). Some subs perform better because they bend less and have heavier duty magnets which control the coil and cone more precisely. The more efficient subs tend to "bend" more primarily because they have smaller magnets and coils pushing them. The better subs require more power to move a stiffer cone with minimal distortion. I have found by experience that in a typical living room, 12s generally perform better than 10s or smaller, and are better suited in terms of volume than 15s, which are really overkill in rooms less than 400 square feet.
Please note I am referring to subs only.
For general front speakers, I tend to favor Polk's strategy of using multiple 6.5" drivers and a port to get a smoothly distributed sound field.
Believe it or not, I don't use two subs to boom the bass on my music. The two subs provide the rhythmic energy that properly balances with the rest of the music. Sure, I can crank them when I want to, but I don't do that very often.

Not talking purely about a port design. I'm talking about a transmission line ported design and what you are saying about frequency response is not true for transmission line designs, designs which have achieved sub 20 Hz response without emphasizing 100 Hz and up.


Since this is an Audiophile thread, there should be a discussion of transmission line subwoofers or speakers:
A transmission line loudspeaker is a loudspeaker enclosure design (topology) that uses an acoustic transmission line within the cabinet, compared to the simpler enclosures used by sealed (closed) or ported (bass reflex) designs. Instead of reverberating in a fairly simple damped enclosure, sound from the back of the bass speaker is directed into a long (generally folded) damped pathway within the speaker enclosure, which allows far greater control and use of speaker energy, and the resulting sound.

Inside a transmission line loudspeaker, is a (usually folded) pathway into which the sound is directed. The pathway is often covered with varying types and depths of absorbent material, may vary in size or taper, and may be open or closed at its far end. Used correctly, such a design ensures that undesired resonances and energies, which would otherwise cause undesirable auditory effects, are instead selectively absorbed or reduced ("damped") due to the effects of the duct, or alternatively only emerge from the open end in phase with the sound radiated from the front of the driver, enhancing the output level ("sensitivity") at low frequencies. The transmission line acts as an acoustic waveguide, and the padding both reduces reflection and resonance, and also slows the speed of sound within the cabinet to allow for better tuning.

Transmission line loudspeakers designs are more complex to implement, making mass production difficult, but their advantages have led to acclaim for a number of manufacturers such as IMF, TDL, PMC and the like. As a rule, transmission line speakers tend to have exceptionally high fidelity low frequency response far below that of a typical speaker or subwoofer, into the infrasonic (British company TDL's studio monitor range from the 1990s quoted their frequency responses as starting from as low as 7 Hz depending upon model) at sensitivity 96 dB, without need for a separate enclosure or driver. Acoustically, TL speakers roll off slower at low frequencies and provide better driver control than standard reflex cabinet designs, are less sensitive to positioning, and tend to create a very spacious soundstage. Modern TL speakers were described in a 2000 review as "match[ing] reflex cabinet designs in every respect, but with an extra octave of bass, lower LF distortion and a frequency balance which is more independent of listening level".

Believe me, if you want to hear incredible bass keys, transmission line subwoofers will shake your ass.

[rcarlberg]

Oy vey. Stick to what you know Frith.

[jkelman]

Tetra 111's are a special case. They are 8" acoustic suspension woofers, paired with the 222's five-inch drivers, so they're really more the WOOFER of the system than a sub-woofer.

Yes, but are considered a subwoofer because of where they roll off...I actually asked the Tetra prez that question....as I thought the same thing. But like any sub they are omnidirectional and so don't need to be place with the 222s. In fact, we'll have the 222s in a built in wall cab, and the 111s across the room on either end of an 8' sofa....

[3LockBox]

Oy vey. Stick to what you know Frith.

just out of curiosity, what exactly are you disagreeing with? I've heard some very good t-line designs (nonsubwoofer) but doubt I'd ever build one for practical reasons. I too eschew a subwoofer for most music in the home but did use subs in cars (back in the day).

I'm not of a mind that suggests there is a right or wrong way to listen nor is there a right or wrong speaker, amp, playback medium, etc. I like what I like. Everybody hears things differently. I know there are people who abhor passive radiators but I prefer them when they're implemented correctly. I have built and heard other builds of single driver designs that are very good. I like listening to different design concepts. I have built/bought and currently listen to three or four different design concepts in different rooms. They each have their nuances that I enjoy. Whether or not one speaker is more 'right' than others is immaterial to me.

[rcarlberg]

Yes, but are considered a subwoofer because of where they roll off...I actually asked the Tetra prez that question....as I thought the same thing. But like any sub they are omnidirectional and so don't need to be place with the 222s. In fact, we'll have the 222s in a built in wall cab, and the 111s across the room on either end of an 8' sofa....

Doesnt sound ideal, but your listening room is your business. I said the 111s aren't subs because the 222s can't put out much usable bass with a 5" driver. When I think "subwoofer" I think a 10", 12" or 15" (I've even seen 18") driver, often with a built-in amplifier, often in a downward-facing enclosure. They are there to rumble, pure and simple.

And if somebody Is dropping dump trucks off a building, you want a subwoofer there for sure.

Music RARELY touches that 15-30Hz frequency range, and when it does you want it as tight as a 12-year old's bottom -- not all rumbly.

[rcarlberg]

just out of curiosity, what exactly are you disagreeing with? I've heard some very good t-line designs (nonsubwoofer) but doubt I'd ever build one for practical reasons.

PM me if you're really interested. I'm tired of a certain unnamed someone throwing his poop at me.

[Firth]

PM me if you're really interested. I'm tired of a certain unnamed someone throwing his poop at me.

Yes because you only throw shit at people's backs. I'm not an expert, but I know who the experts are and sir you are an expert. An expert in politics.

[Staun]

Someone up thread was talking about mid bass. How does one attenuate low, mid and upper bass? I'm mostly interested in the term, upper base. How does that apply to music and musical instruments and what I'm hearing?

[jkelman]

Wow, the Tetra series of screamers sound rather interesting. What is it about these monitors that turns heads? Of course the price points are far beyond that of mortal man.

The short answer? As someone who has spent years in studios, I've never heard a set of speakers replicate what I heard in the studio. Great though they were, there was always something missing. The Tetras deliver the music as I always remember it sounding. They're the most truthful set of speakers I've ever heard.

[jkelman]

Doesnt sound ideal, but your listening room is your business. I said the 111s aren't subs because the 222s can't put out much usable bass with a 5" driver. When I think "subwoofer" I think a 10", 12" or 15" (I've even seen 18") driver, often with a built-in amplifier, often in a downward-facing enclosure. They are there to rumble, pure and simple.

And if somebody Is dropping dump trucks off a building, you want a subwoofer there for sure.

Music RARELY touches that 15-30Hz frequency range, and when it does you want it as tight as a 12-year old's bottom -- not all rumbly.

actually, this was a major discussion with Terra's prez. His position is that thus will sound absolutely wonderful, and he'll be coming over to make any necessary tweaks and to make it happen.

as for 'usable' bass, you'do be surprised who the 222s can put out. These are not typical ... Many people but just the 222s and, having lived with a Demi set since December,let me tell you they put out plenty. It's allin the cAbinet design, apparently, and the crossovers.

but as before... I know shit about design...I only know what my ears tell me, and the 222s pump out plenty of 'usable' bass..,something confirmed by others who've already heard them chez Kelman. One wondered why I even needed the subs...I told him he'd hear it when I've got 'I'm.

i know I come off like a crazed fanatic...but truly, these are unlike anything I've ever heard, and defy much of the logic and mythology to which I previously subscribed.

[rcarlberg]

If they sound like live music, that's a good thing. And rare.

[rcarlberg]

Someone up thread was talking about mid bass. How does one attenuate low, mid and upper bass? I'm mostly interested in the term, upper base. How does that apply to music and musical instruments and what I'm hearing?

As I read your question, which is a little confusing, the answer is, the bass frequencies are anything under about, say, 200 Hz. From 100-200 is upper bass. 50-100 is mid-bass. 25-50 Hz is low bass.

Each has its own challenges. Many systems try to disguise the lack of low bass by boosting mid-bass.

[Staun]

As I read your question, which is a little confusing, the answer is, the bass frequencies are anything under about, say, 200 Hz. From 100-200 is upper bass. 50-100 is mid-bass. 25-50 Hz is low bass.

Each has its own challenges. Many systems try to disguise the lack of low bass by boosting mid-bass.

Your fine as you answered my question. Most people think of bass as simply, bass. But I do know there is low, mid and upper bass. Just wanted to know what the upper bass affects in terms of the sound stage. Where is the upper bass most recognizable? I ask this knowing of bass drivers and midbass drivers.

[rcarlberg]

There are very few musical instruments in the low bass octave. Mostly what's down there is kick drum and Tom toms.

Mid bass has bass guitar and standup bass. Maybe some baritone sax or contrabassoon.

Bassoons, bass singing voices, guitars, I.e. most musical instruments, start in the upper bass register.

[Staun]

As I read your question, which is a little confusing, the answer is, the bass frequencies are anything under about, say, 200 Hz. From 100-200 is upper bass. 50-100 is mid-bass. 25-50 Hz is low bass.

Each has its own challenges. Many systems try to disguise the lack of low bass by boosting mid-bass.

Let me put it in more practical terms. When I listen to music I always ask myself, how does the drums sound? As if they are some type of guide post. When I hear the drum toms and snare, I always think they tend to sound thin. They have sound but not enough bottom. Kick drum usually sounds alright. Would this be an upper base issue?

[Staun]

There are very few musical instruments in the low bass octave. Mostly what's down there is kick drum and Tom toms.

Mid bass has bass guitar and standup bass. Maybe some baritone sax or contrabassoon.

Bassoons, bass singing voices, guitars, I.e. most musical instruments, start in the upper bass register.

Well, your faster than me.

[rottersclub]

Someone up thread was talking about mid bass. How does one attenuate low, mid and upper bass? I'm mostly interested in the term, upper base. How does that apply to music and musical instruments and what I'm hearing?

Mostly from the speakers. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, speakers are voiced differently depending on the philosophy of the designer. That's why IMO it's so important to listen to speakers before purchasing them. They really can vary quite a bit. Some speakers are boomy, some are overly bright and some accentuate the mid-range.

The speakers I own are admittedly a titch warm in the mid-base and the designers eliminated that bump in the second iteration of the speaker. I am more than happy with mine as they do everything I want in a speaker.

[BobM]

Good tight and accurate bass is essential for a system to sound dynamic. Without bottom end extension, I don't care how loud your system gets, it just won't have the slam it needs to sound anywhere near real. I think the key to a great system is its ability to portray both micro and macro dynamics.

The funny thing about good bass ... it also somehow enhances the top end as well.

[rcarlberg]

The funny thing about good bass ... it also somehow enhances the top end as well.

A nice tight bottom always makes the top look better.

[Staun]

A nice tight bottom always makes the top look better.

Psst, are we still talking about the same thing here?

[Staun]

It's funny that people like me who have always listened to vinyl, seem to have a kind of rejection of subs. But, younger people of today can't seem to do without them. Maybe it's because of the club scene or that a great deal of music such as rap/hip hop, seems to be made for systems with subs attached. Through all the pounding, how can one enjoy the music? I know it's not that simple but there certainly has been a change in what people listen to music for.

[Firth]

There are very few musical instruments in the low bass octave. Mostly what's down there is kick drum and Tom toms.

Mid bass has bass guitar and standup bass. Maybe some baritone sax or contrabassoon.

Bassoons, bass singing voices, guitars, I.e. most musical instruments, start in the upper bass register.

Given that this is a progressive rock website and progressive rock has featured Moog Taurus pedals more than any other music, we should consider what it may sound like to have concert levels of these in our living rooms. And of course that organ note of Rick Wakeman on Cans and Brahms, DVD Audio.
Analysis of the Taurus I circuit reveals several characteristics which contribute to its unique sound, including: Subtle distortion introduced by vintage CA3080 OTA (Operational transconductance amplifier) ICs in the VCA and especially in the VCF circuit; AC coupling between the VCF and VCA that generates an inherent 20Hz corner frequency boost; and, the RC product of capacitor coupling between stages, which is optimized for bass frequencies.

All these design elements, along with the classic Moog 24dB/Oct Low Pass "Ladder" Filter which, in this instrument, is specifically derived directly from the 1960s-era Moog modular synthesizer 904A Filter module, combine to produce a uniquely aggressive, edgy, penetrating timbre which is not exactly duplicated by any other instrument and is widely regarded for its extremely rich, "fat" sound, which is oftentimes more felt than heard, especially when greatly amplified.