Thread: The Audiophile Thread

  1. #2951
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    So... what DO y'all recommend to wow your visitors?
    Bass:


    3 clear deep notes



    But use a CD, not Youtube.
    Last edited by Zeuhlmate; 2 Weeks Ago at 06:20 PM.

  2. #2952
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Please use another source than YT






  3. #2953
    Member Quantum Cat's Avatar
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    Just wondering if anyone has any experience or opinions on Apple's Spatial Audio? How does it compare to Dolby Atmos or other formats? I recently heard an interview where Brian Eno described is as a game changer more significant than the switch from mono to stereo and that got me curious.

    If you use it, how? Is there a way to incorporate these technologies into an existing system with a receiver that does not decode these formats?

    You can tell me to F-off and do my own research, but I'm thinking the knowledgeable folks might have some thoughts at the ready. Sorry if this has been covered before.

  4. #2954
    Member Gizmotron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Cat View Post
    Just wondering if anyone has any experience or opinions on Apple's Spatial Audio? How does it compare to Dolby Atmos or other formats? I recently heard an interview where Brian Eno described is as a game changer more significant than the switch from mono to stereo and that got me curious.

    If you use it, how? Is there a way to incorporate these technologies into an existing system with a receiver that does not decode these formats?

    You can tell me to F-off and do my own research, but I'm thinking the knowledgeable folks might have some thoughts at the ready. Sorry if this has been covered before.
    As I understand it, Apple Music supports both ATMOS and their own Spatial Audio. For spatial audio, one needs to be using the Air Pods or Air pods Max. With spatial audio, when one turns one’s head, the sound changes (it emphasizes the sound mix from the direction you move towards).

    With ATMOS, most (?) of us listen on a 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 (etc) system. The sound is in the room. That is most satisfying for many of us. It is difficult to describe the sonic joys of that setup. The more complex the music, the more valuable the system is (think of a ATMOS version of an Ant Phillips guitar track vs. a modern, dense Prog track from Magenta or a re-mixed classic like “Relayer”). A well-mixed ATMOS track (Gentle Giant for instance) can take advantage of the multiple speakers, and especially, th overheads to give one a dramatic, immersive musical experience that is far better than stereo (in my opinion).

    Listening to surround sound on headphones just cannot quite equal that—again, in my opinion. I have a 7.1.4 system by the way.

    But this is just part of the answer that I think you are after, and I think the smart folks here can add much more to fully answer your questions.

  5. #2955
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I have no opinion because I have no experience with multi-channel. Always seemed like a gimmick to me. Possibly useful for playing DVDs , but very very few music productions were ever mixed to true 5.1 and unless originally designed for it, it would simply be adding something to the music that wasn't supposed to be there.

    Dolby Atmos adds one more dimension -- height -- with ceiling mounted speakers (so, 9.1?). Again, a few movies might take advantage of it, but with music it seems entirely superfluous.

    It looks like Apple Spatial uses position sensors in headphones or ear buds, and raises the volume of the left channel if you turn your head left. For one, that sounds a lot less sophisticated than Atmos, and for two, I hate the sound of earbuds. For three, I can't imagine that effect being useful in music.

    So, I have no opinion. Just a lot of unfounded speculation....

  6. #2956
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotron View Post
    A well-mixed ATMOS track (Gentle Giant for instance) can take advantage of the multiple speakers, and especially, th overheads to give one a dramatic, immersive musical experience that is far better than stereo (in my opinion).
    What do they put in the overheads? Reverb? Audience noise? Hall effect?

  7. #2957
    Member Gizmotron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    What do they put in the overheads? Reverb? Audience noise? Hall effect?
    None of the above. With some ATMOS music that iaht be the case, but with the GG album it is often the myriad backing vocals. You are not alone in thinking that ATMOS is a gimmick, but I can assure you that if you listen to a well set-up system with something like the GG or Wilson’s re-mix of Yes or other progressive masterpieces, you would probably re-assess that position.

    Perhaps no album shows off the ability of surround sound or ATMOS to deal with extremely dense material than Yes’ “Relayer.” It is the go-to demo material for Surround sound. While less popular, I feel that Robert Reed’s Magenta and Kompendium albums might be even more impressive. Rob is simply a genius on all levels; his work in surround is drop-dead amazing IMO.

    The endorsement and especially, use of ATMOS by folks like Wilson and Eno is noteworthy. The amount of well-respected musicians that now support ATMOS is very large.

    And yes, its use in movies was the prime driver of the technology; it is the latest evolutionary step by the movie biz. It also sounds incredible. Naturally, with some movies (Marvel, Star Wars, etc) it can be somewhat dramatic. But it is very powerful and realistic. And in something arty and intense like Blade Runner 2049? Stunningly effective. With the latter, the incessant rain in the movie is so well delivered by those overhead speakers.

    Oh, and as far as the nomenclature, a 7.1.4 setup is:
    7 = the regular speakers (one center channel, two stereo fronts, two side channel speakers, and two rear channel speakers) Five speakers was the first standard, but 7 is now fairly standard.
    1 = the subwoofer (a discreet, separate channel just for low frequency music and sound effects)
    4 = the two front overheads plus the two rear overheads.

    Sometimes people have two subs (for better, less directional low frequency sound), so that would be X.2.X
    Sometimes people have even more side channels.
    Sometimes there are even more overheads, such as a center overhead (the so-called “voice of God”).

    The protocol supports a bunch more channels for more impressive home systems. And there is another different but similar protocol** to ATMOS that is similar in its set-up. Most modern receivers can deal with both.

    **DTS:X

    if you are ever in Tucson I’ll gladly crank up the system for ya!

  8. #2958
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I'll pack an overnight bag. Except, your state appears to be completely crAZy.

  9. #2959
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I'll pack an overnight bag. Except, your state appears to be completely crAZy.
    We prefer “Twilight Zone” to “crazy,” but I do understand and agree that our image needs to be buffed up a little.

    (Here in Tucson, we are somewhat like Austin, you know, a little pool of artistic, democratic sunshine amidst the drone of right-wing cowboyism. Apologies to all the RW Cowboys, of course.)

  10. #2960
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    I was rarely ever lucky enough to have a room in a house that could do justice to a proper stereo setup, let alone 5.1. Now I'm supposed to buy how many more speakers? And I'm sure, of course, that all 11 (for now) speakers will need to be timbre matched. ATMOS is probably all that and a bag of chips, just like 7.1 before that and 5.1 before that. I knew so few people that had a "surround system" back when they were supposed to be all the rage. Are people buying ATMOS systems?

  11. #2961
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Pretty soon there will just be a pod you sit in, that has speakers all around you including under your butt...

    Wait a minute...
    f88d4b67ce8c1c23fa3bdd9f37b37c67.jpg

  12. #2962
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    Thanks Gizmotron! I love good surround sound, and as I’ve mentioned before, I usually listen on 5-Channel on my particular set-up, as I like the sound and the soundstage created thereby. Not sure rcarlburg would approve ;-) but regardless, the pictures you ratter eloquently painted certainly piqued my interest in Atmos. Spatial Audio not so much, but I’d be interested on what Eno is doing with it - who knows? Not I, said the grasshopper to the sky.

  13. #2963
    Outraged bystander markwoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Pretty soon there will just be a pod you sit in, that has speakers all around you including under your butt...

    Wait a minute...
    f88d4b67ce8c1c23fa3bdd9f37b37c67.jpg
    I sat in something much like that at Expo '67 in the Australian ( or Canada ) pavilion.
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  14. #2964
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I was rarely ever lucky enough to have a room in a house that could do justice to a proper stereo setup, let alone 5.1. Now I'm supposed to buy how many more speakers? And I'm sure, of course, that all 11 (for now) speakers will need to be timbre matched. ATMOS is probably all that and a bag of chips, just like 7.1 before that and 5.1 before that. I knew so few people that had a "surround system" back when they were supposed to be all the rage. Are people buying ATMOS systems?
    Atmos isn’t just about how many speakers, it’s about a high resolution mixing technology that gives the artist more control on where sound is placed up to and including 3 dimensions. There is a lot to be said about simply having a 2.1 system in which the deep bass can be mixed to a separate subwoofer channel, removing the load from the other two and handling the crossover appropriately. I don’t have vertical channels, but the multichannel down mixes out of Atmos are good.
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  15. #2965
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Pretty soon there will just be a pod you sit in, that has speakers all around you including under your butt...

    Wait a minute...
    f88d4b67ce8c1c23fa3bdd9f37b37c67.jpg
    I’m expecting a “Matrix” hookup where the interfaces are directly into the nervous system.
    On the verge of indecision
    I'll always take the roundabout way

  16. #2966
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    All I can think when I see this is, "Na-nu, Na-nu"

  17. #2967
    Member Gizmotron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum Cat View Post
    Thanks Gizmotron! I love good surround sound, and as I’ve mentioned before, I usually listen on 5-Channel on my particular set-up, as I like the sound and the soundstage created thereby. Not sure rcarlburg would approve ;-) but regardless, the pictures you ratter eloquently painted certainly piqued my interest in Atmos. Spatial Audio not so much, but I’d be interested on what Eno is doing with it - who knows? Not I, said the grasshopper to the sky.
    You are very kind, Quantum Cat.
    I think you see what I am saying: the best minds in music are already 100% focused on mixing for ATMOS first because they feel the format allows for more effective/artistic music that gets closer to the sound in their minds.

    That kind of says it all.

  18. #2968
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I was rarely ever lucky enough to have a room in a house that could do justice to a proper stereo setup, let alone 5.1. Now I'm supposed to buy how many more speakers? And I'm sure, of course, that all 11 (for now) speakers will need to be timbre matched. ATMOS is probably all that and a bag of chips, just like 7.1 before that and 5.1 before that. I knew so few people that had a "surround system" back when they were supposed to be all the rage. Are people buying ATMOS systems?
    First, I would point out that Firth has an excellent point in his post.

    I think the thing I would stress to everyone, but especially to you is that the key fact in music reproduction really has never changed since the fist wax cylinder. Every type of reproduction, every format, and every speaker arrangement (mono, stereo, binaural, quad, surround, ATMOS/DTS:X )has always had some flaws. But every new system is an attempt to sound more realistic and are arguably a better way to experience sound the way we hear it naturally.

    We have two ears. We live in a three dimensional world. Sound reproduction engineers attempt to deliver the best, most realistic sound with each new update and upgrade. As a Free Man, you can do whatever you want. I know people that still spin 78s. I know people that have zillion dollar systems. As to your question, of course people are buying ATMOS and DTS:X systems. Check out Best Buy or Cambridge or any other seller. They have many brands and many price points. They wouldn’t be stocking them if they were not selling.

    But does that really matter? Maybe on some level it does; none of us want to buy equipment that soon is useless. But i cannot remember many formats (binaural perhaps) that ended up that way prematurely.

    Actually, the trend has been to build upon the past. Speakers are still speakers. Newest tech or 50 year old speakers still accept the signal from an ancient receiver/amp or the newest surround amps. I have steadily added speakers to be where I am. Yes, all my speakers are fairly well matched currently (all B+W) but as recently as a year ago I was still using at least a pair ancient speakers in the set-up. They sounded pretty good. Now my system is better. If I add more in the future, my speakers will still be emitting sound just fine. I kept my last surround (5.1) amp for 22 years! It was pretty nice. But my new Denon is delightfully better.

    You are not “supposed” to do anything except look within to find what makes you happy. Who cares about what is “the rage”? You should focus on what is best for you. We all do that; that is why this thread is so lively, diverse, and long-lasting. We all clearly have particular needs and wants. I disagree with lots of the thoughts in the preceding pages, but I LOVE that each person expressing an opinion is passionate about music and what works best for them. I think most of us never “follow the crowd.” I have my system because it is almost as fun as hot sex. Maybe even better. If you feel that way about your set-up, you have my admiration and respect for finding what works for you.

    I think the best thing you can do is find a pal with a good ATMOS system and listen to a movie or two, and then really get down to business and play some of the music you like that has been (well-)mixed by a capable person (again, I think S. Wilson and Rob Reed are the leaders in the field). Let your ears be the judge.

    I extend my offer to you or any of the folks here. Stop by. I’ll crank it up. No one ever leaves here with a frown.
    Last edited by Gizmotron; 1 Week Ago at 08:19 PM.

  19. #2969
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    ^ I'm not poo-pooing large systems or multichannel set ups. If I ever owned a domicile with a room suitable for such an indulgence I'd probably have a multichannel setup.

  20. #2970
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmotron View Post
    I think the best thing you can do is find a pal with a good ATMOS system and listen to a movie or two, and then really get down to business and play some of the music you like that has been (well-)mixed by a capable person (again, I think S. Wilson and Rob Reed are the leaders in the field). Let your ears be the judge.

    I extend my offer to you or any of the folks here. Stop by. I’ll crank it up. No one ever leaves here with a frown.
    Maybe for the music too, but the AMC Dolby Cinemas provide one of best Dolby Atmos experiences. With unique arrays using ribbon tweeters in each column and speakers built into the ceiling, not to mention phenomenally clean and subsonic bass, just awesome. I saw Bohemian Rhapsody in one.
    On the verge of indecision
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  21. #2971
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I'm old enough to have seen the movie "Earthquake" in theaters. For that they surrounded the audience with a dozen 18" Cerwin-Vega subwoofer horns all around the seating floor, so that when the Big One™ struck, it was literally hard to breathe. The theaters had to be inspected by a building engineer before installation.

    But then, the effect went on for a couple minutes, unrealistically, as the screen showed different scenes of death & destruction.

    What does this have to do with music reproduction? Nothing.

  22. #2972
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I'm old enough to have seen the movie "Earthquake" in theaters. For that they surrounded the audience with a dozen 18" Cerwin-Vega subwoofer horns all around the seating floor, so that when the Big One™ struck, it was literally hard to breathe. The theaters had to be inspected by a building engineer before installation.

    But then, the effect went on for a couple minutes, unrealistically, as the screen showed different scenes of death & destruction.

    What does this have to do with music reproduction? Nothing.
    I didn't see Earthquake! in theaters but one of the theaters that had Sensurround showed King Kong (the 70s remake) and I remember being awestruck as you could feel Kong's every step.

  23. #2973
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I'm old enough to have seen the movie "Earthquake" in theaters. For that they surrounded the audience with a dozen 18" Cerwin-Vega subwoofer horns all around the seating floor, so that when the Big One™ struck, it was literally hard to breathe. The theaters had to be inspected by a building engineer before installation.

    But then, the effect went on for a couple minutes, unrealistically, as the screen showed different scenes of death & destruction.

    What does this have to do with music reproduction? Nothing.
    I HAVE two of those cabinets! From Seattle's Admiral Theater. Those hummers are 48"x48"x20". I put the drivers in a more compact 24"x24"x24" and use them as my stereo sub-woofers. Yes, you "feel" the bass drum and tympani.....and the low C on the pipe organ. In the day, each "Earthquake driver had a Cerwin Vega 360W amp. I have foam inserts between all my dishes in the kitchen....lest they start clattering during Saint-Saens Organ Symphony!
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  24. #2974
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    I’ve had my hair vibrating against the seat twice in my life. First it was a Musical Box performance from the 6th row at the Keswick near Philly. And the second and more times, movies at the local AMC Dolby Cinema. They have an IMAX as well, and it certainly puts out some lows, but not like that and muddy as well.
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  25. #2975
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garyhead View Post
    I HAVE two of those cabinets! From Seattle's Admiral Theater. Those hummers are 48"x48"x20". I put the drivers in a more compact 24"x24"x24" and use them as my stereo sub-woofers. Yes, you "feel" the bass drum and tympani.....and the low C on the pipe organ. In the day, each "Earthquake driver had a Cerwin Vega 360W amp. I have foam inserts between all my dishes in the kitchen....lest they start clattering during Saint-Saens Organ Symphony!
    What do you power the CVs with? My brother had a pair of CV D9s and they could part your hair and that was with 120watts

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