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Thread: The Audiophile Thread

  1. #2901
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  2. #2902
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    The methodical and articulate Andrew Jones, and his new speaker design:



    I'm sure Danny Richie (GR Research) will rip it and have a $400 upgrade kit for it.

  3. #2903
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I'm sure Danny Richie (GR Research) will rip it and have a $400 upgrade kit for it.
    That is possible, but this is rather unique product and a knock off may perform to 70%, but a concentric design like that with a 10” woofer isn’t a trivial thing to imitate.
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  4. #2904
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Heh-heh-heh. "Source-point" is the term used for single-driver speaker systems, because you don't have to worry about phasing and driver interference. There have been a lot of attempts to create point-source sound reproducers because of the problems that would solve.

    But, it is fiendishly difficult to manufacture a driver capable of ten octaves. It essentially can't be done, due to the divergent requirements of "small light weight diaphragm for high frequencies" and "large rigid diaphragm for low frequencies." Every example I've heard has introduced way more distortion in driver design than they solved with speaker cabinet design.

    I haven't heard Andrew Jones' speaker, but unless he's somehow hacked science he'll be under the same restraints.

  5. #2905
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    P.S. - Steve's "reference speakers" with open backs ... well, color me skeptical.

    Incidentally, one of the very first speaker systems I ever designed (1971?) used a co-axial driver not unlike Andrew's (not nearly as good obviously, but the same idea):
    https://www.ebay.com/p/2325894528?iid=353842031994
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 11-12-2022 at 04:02 PM.

  6. #2906
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Heh-heh-heh. "Source-point" is the term used for single-driver speaker systems, because you don't have to worry about phasing and driver interference. There have been a lot of attempts to create point-source sound reproducers because of the problems that would solve.

    But, it is fiendishly difficult to manufacture a driver capable of ten octaves. It essentially can't be done, due to the divergent requirements of "small light weight diaphragm for high frequencies" and "large rigid diaphragm for low frequencies." Every example I've heard has introduced way more distortion in driver design than they solved with speaker cabinet design.

    I haven't heard Andrew Jones' speaker, but unless he's somehow hacked science he'll be under the same restraints.
    Your typical response. There is another factor and in this case the woofer cone acts like a horn. Watch the video and listen to this man’s engineering which is an art. It’s easy to poo poo, hard to create new.
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  7. #2907
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    P.S. - Steve's "reference speakers" with open backs ... well, color me skeptical.

    Incidentally, one of the very first speaker systems I ever designed (1971?) used a co-axial driver not unlike Andrew's (not nearly as good obviously, but the same idea):
    https://www.ebay.com/p/2325894528?iid=353842031994
    Yeh, the open back requires placement well away from a back wall, just like Maggies.
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  8. #2908
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Your typical response. There is another factor and in this case the woofer cone acts like a horn.
    LOL. The MOVING woofer cone acts as a volumetric horn for the tweeter -- which sits IN FRONT of the apex? Yeah, that'll work....

    First principles, Firth. First principles.

  9. #2909
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    LOL. The MOVING woofer cone acts as a volumetric horn for the tweeter -- which sits IN FRONT of the apex? Yeah, that'll work....

    First principles, Firth. First principles.
    The very first principle is to listen.
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  10. #2910
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    The SECOND principle is to be skeptical of somebody selling two-way bookshelf speakers for $3,700.

  11. #2911
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    The SECOND principle is to be skeptical of somebody selling two-way bookshelf speakers for $3,700.
    Have you heard them?
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  12. #2912
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    The SECOND principle is to be skeptical of somebody selling two-way bookshelf speakers for $3,700.
    The speaker is considered a robust or large studio monitor, not a normal bookshelf speaker size.

    Acoustically, Jones had both the speaker and room tuned into to exceptionally flat response, with solid, tight bass – my favorite flavor. The two way design never faltered when playing rock, or even my request curveball of dubstep and Billie Ellish’s Bad Guy (check out the breakdown at the end). Imaging was also (eh hem) on point with an ultra focused instrument separation and left-right-center diversity when playing Andrew’s choice Chocolate Chip Trip by Tool. Andrew has never been short on interesting and sometimes surprising demo tracks when showing off his gear. Because of the concentric nature of the drivers, the MoFi SourcePoint 10 can actually be mounted upright or on its side with no change in performance.

    Measurements coming soon.


    https://audio-head.com/mofi-electron...0-loudspeaker/
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  13. #2913
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Yes, imaging should be excellent with concentric drivers. The angled baffleboard should be good at preventing undue reflections. I couldn't tell if the cabinets were slightly angled, or square, but the walnut veneers looked fabulous.

    However, Steve-What's-His-Name, the "audiophiliac" guy, said their bass response was only down to 40 Hz. With a 10" accordion-suspension woofer that sounds about right. And that is "bookshelf speaker" territory....

  14. #2914
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    The one thing I find interesting about the Andrew Jones design is something that even The Audiophiliac mentions is the resurgence of of large woofer and horn designs. What say you guys.

  15. #2915
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    The SECOND principle is to be skeptical of somebody selling two-way bookshelf speakers for $3,700.
    Wilson Duette Series 2, 33Hz–21kHz, $22,500 https://www.stereophile.com/content/...-2-loudspeaker

  16. #2916
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Wilson Duette Series 2
    Oh certainly there's no limit in the audio world to ridiculous prices and clueless rubes eager to pay them. It becomes the basis for bragging rights.

  17. #2917
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    The one thing I find interesting about the Andrew Jones design is something that even The Audiophiliac mentions is the resurgence of of large woofer and horn designs. What say you guys.
    I wouldn't really call a ten-inch a "large woofer." Well, maybe it is today when slim towers dominate the market, but back in my day "large" meant 12" or 15" or even 18". Ten-inchers were for bookshelf speakers. They've done marvelous things with active electronics these days to get better bass out of tiny desktop speakers, and that's been applied to tower speakers to make them sound bigger than they actually are. But physics dictates that you simply can't get enough throw (cone travel) out of a 5" or 4" driver to move enough air to match a large woofer, even if you use several drivers wired in tandem to give the same overall cone area.

    If it doesn't rattle your pants leg, it's not a big woofer.

    As to horns, they never went away. Some people love them, some people hate them -- it's a personal preference thing. Me, I've never heard a horn that didn't sound like a horn, which legislates against them in my book. I want my speakers to disappear into the music, not dictate the sound.

  18. #2918
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Have you heard them?
    Not worth the argument with him. Just block him, like most everyone else.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A gentleman is defined as someone who knows how to play the accordion, and doesn't.

  19. #2919
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    Not worth the argument with him. Just block him, like most everyone else.
    Certainly that's an option. One way to avoid losing an argument is to pull out.

    I can be wrong, and always acknowledge when I'm proven wrong. Believe me, that's more painful than blocking those I disagree with and never facing the possibility.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 11-13-2022 at 12:39 PM.

  20. #2920
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    Not worth the argument with him. Just block him, like most everyone else.
    I believe in free speech and the right to give yourself the rope to hang yourself
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  21. #2921
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Well, maybe it is today when slim towers dominate the market, but back in my day "large" meant 12" or 15" or even 18".
    Wrong thread, pops.

  22. #2922
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I did a gamechanger to my living room system. I have a number of supposedly HD lossless files on the computer in my office and play them through the office system. I finally got around to getting another DAC set up in the living room and hooked it up to the laptop. I've got a number of supposedly HD/24 bit lossless files and ran them through JRiver > DAC > ARCAM amplifier. Damn, it sounded great. Steely Dan was particularly impressive. It makes up for my crappy turntable experience of the last few months.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  23. #2923
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Oh certainly there's no limit in the audio world to ridiculous prices and clueless rubes eager to pay them. It becomes the basis for bragging rights.
    I can't afford them either.
    I have heard Wilson Audio Speakers and ridiculously priced amps, and I just wish my economy was in that league.

    There exist no perfect Stereo.
    You can come a long way by combing the right devices, you can even come close to the sound of more expensive stuff with a limited budget, It takes years, and I find it fun. Personally I love listening to music I know on other peoples Hi-Fi, tube amps, horn speakers, transmission line (love that bass), open baffle, electrostatic loudspeakers, etc.
    And you always meet people who claims that you can't hear the difference between cables - and they can thus save their money.

  24. #2924
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    The big 10 inch:
    “I’m not giving in an inch to fear” David Crosby

  25. #2925
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Sounds very, very good Firth -- bearing in mind it's a YouTube video playing over my headphones. The sonic accuracy and lack of phasing interference are obvious even under these restrictions. The studio echo on Harry's voice is clearly evident.

    The tubbiness of the stand-up bass I attribute to the original 1958 recording, or maybe its remaster:


    Actually, the original "unremastered" 1958 recording sounds considerably better.


    But they're definitely playing the crappy remaster, because the bass is all in the center.

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