Thread: The Audiophile Thread

  1. #2801
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I've always maintained that in the audio hobby its ok to keep harem
    I'm gonna be using that phrase quite a bit now.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  2. #2802
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    If you're familiar with Pbthal and his vinyl rips, some of his rips (in 16 bit) are great. Again for me it comes down to the mastering. A great album, well-mastered (even in 16 bit) can sound great. Anglagard's first two albums still sound killer to me in 16 bit on cd. I have no doubt a good vinyl rip of those albums to digital have the potential to sound great.
    Hi-Res doesn't require special mastering the way 16 bit does. A vinyl record will transfer directly to Hi-Res and sounds very much like the original. It doesn't take on the cardboard box drum sound, the thin thumpy bass (guitar) sound, or the thin jangly acoustic guitar sound.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  3. #2803
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    Hi-Res doesn't require special mastering the way 16 bit does. A vinyl record will transfer directly to Hi-Res and sounds very much like the original. It doesn't take on the cardboard box drum sound, the thin thumpy bass (guitar) sound, or the thin jangly acoustic guitar sound.
    Vinyl is an inferior format period. It doesnít support infinite channel separation. Itís vinyl that has all ways required special mastering to handle properly the potential 100 dB dynamic range and 100 KHz bandwidth of top quality tape recording. DSD for SACD was specified to record with the same requirements as that tape. CDs donít really need special mastering unless the source is digital and $hit on by digital processing, or someone wants to match loudness for commercial release which has been $hit for decades now. The dynamic range of CDs is not used for commercial release. If it was people would complain.
    On the verge of indecision
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  4. #2804
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Vinyl is an inferior format period. It doesnít support infinite channel separation.
    is infinite channel separation necessary?

  5. #2805
    Member hFx's Avatar
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    Under no legitimate circumstances will the dynamic range of vinyl ever exceed the dynamic range of CD, under any frequency, given the wide performance gap and the physical limitations of vinyl playback. Note - 16 bit dithered CD, not any HiRes digital format.

    (https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.ph...=Myths_(Vinyl))
    Last edited by hFx; 08-12-2022 at 08:00 AM.
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  6. #2806
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    is infinite channel separation necessary?
    Is anything necessary? People nitpick on the minutia. I believe it does, and the evidence is a comparison using audiophile headphones and a comparison of a straight to mics, DSD sampling of stereo mics and straight to vinyl recording and playback via top cartridge/turntable combination. If one adds in speakers that are not large and planar, and room acoustics, then the differences get lost in the mud. Channel separation is very important in high dynamic range multichannel, with the appropriate room design or correction.
    On the verge of indecision
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  7. #2807
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hFx View Post
    Under no legitimate circumstances will the dynamic range of vinyl ever exceed the dynamic range of CD, under any frequency, given the wide performance gap and the physical limitations of vinyl playback. Note - 16 bit dithered CD, not any HiRes digital format.

    (https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.ph...=Myths_(Vinyl))
    However the distortion caused by $hitty digital sampling creates harmonics above the noise floor effectively killing the dynamic range. Same thing can happen for analog, but it’s more forgiving, especially tubes.
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  8. #2808
    Member hFx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    However the distortion caused by $hitty digital sampling creates harmonics above the noise floor effectively killing the dynamic range. Same thing can happen for analog, but it’s more forgiving, especially tubes.
    I guess you refer to aliasing, but anyway - yes the problem as always, is within the analogue domain!
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  9. #2809
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hFx View Post
    Under no legitimate circumstances will the dynamic range of vinyl ever exceed the dynamic range of CD, under any frequency, given the wide performance gap and the physical limitations of vinyl playback. Note - 16 bit dithered CD, not any HiRes digital format.

    (https://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.ph...=Myths_(Vinyl))
    What people mean when they say they hear "more dynamic range" in vinyl is they hear a more open, transparent and vibrant sound. They use the old fallback description "dynamic range" for lack of better words to articulate what they're actually hearing. Of course it's technically impossible to hear "more dynamic range" in vinyl. That's like seeing "more color" in an old CRT SD television.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  10. #2810
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    What people mean when they say they hear "more dynamic range" in vinyl is they hear a more open, transparent and vibrant sound. They use the old fallback description "dynamic range" for lack of better words to articulate what they're actually hearing. Of course it's technically impossible to hear "more dynamic range" in vinyl. That's like seeing "more color" in an old CRT SD television.
    The phenomenon which enables the brain to perceive more detail in a source is related to a certain spectrum of noise that the brain cancels when forming a filter around a harmonic. Tube noise allows that phenomenon because the spectrum increases with frequency (shot noise). I believe it provides the subjective sense of air and ability for the ear to resolve fine detail. Itís conceptually similar to dithering for A/Ds and D/As. Interference between channels on vinyl playback doesnít get helped by a noise floor because itís correlated.
    On the verge of indecision
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  11. #2811
    Member hFx's Avatar
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    The vinyl process, from mastering and forward to what comes out of the RIAA-amlplifier, adds and removes and warp things to something that can be pleasing to the human hearing, including but not limited to the necessity of compressed dynamic range and several phase shifting stages, in certain situations contributing to a widening of the sound stage. As pointed out, bad AD/DA processes diminishes the potential quality - in particular on the analogue side of things. There are some hypotheses around about how the sampling frequencies affects the stereo imaging, but still no firm theory confirming (or contradicting) the hypotheses (trying to make that a part of my scientific work though).
    My Progressive Workshop at http://soundcloud.com/hfxx

  12. #2812
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    The phenomenon which enables the brain to perceive more detail in a source is related to a certain spectrum of noise that the brain cancels when forming a filter around a harmonic. Tube noise allows that phenomenon because the spectrum increases with frequency (shot noise). I believe it provides the subjective sense of air and ability for the ear to resolve fine detail. It’s conceptually similar to dithering for A/Ds and D/As. Interference between channels on vinyl playback doesn’t get helped by a noise floor because it’s correlated.
    Different brains perceive different things. Some people can hear the individual notes in a chord. Most can't. I seem to be the only one on this forum who was able to hear the constant clipping, with most drum hits in Neal Morse Band Innocence & Danger. It immediately jumped out at me when listening to the camples. It was the very first thing I noticed.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  13. #2813
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    Different brains perceive different things. Some people can hear the individual notes in a chord. Most can't. I seem to be the only one on this forum who was able to hear the constant clipping, with most drum hits in Neal Morse Band Innocence & Danger. It immediately jumped out at me when listening to the camples. It was the very first thing I noticed.
    Everything Iíve ever heard from the studio in which Neal Morse was the prime contributor was too loud. When comes to hearing, the most irritating sound comes from a sound man in a concert that doesnít hear that the loudness kills the sound because most environments reverberate.
    On the verge of indecision
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  14. #2814
    Man of repute progmatist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Everything I’ve ever heard from the studio in which Neal Morse was the prime contributor was too loud.
    It's not just "loud" in terms of the loudness war. They apparently forgot to add a limiter to the effects chain. Allowing drum hits to cross the 0dB threshold into positive territory.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  15. #2815
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    Quote Originally Posted by progmatist View Post
    It's not just "loud" in terms of the loudness war. They apparently forgot to add a limiter to the effects chain. Allowing drum hits to cross the 0dB threshold into positive territory.
    I don’t believe in limiters. Putting a non linear device to compress amplitudes creates distortion, unless the limiter is on the mic for each drum that has a mic and even then it’s not ideal.
    On the verge of indecision
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  16. #2816
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    I don’t believe in limiters. Putting a non linear device to compress amplitudes creates distortion, unless the limiter is on the mic for each drum that has a mic and even then it’s not ideal.
    Properly set up limiters prevent distortion by "limiting" peaks. As the name implies. They have been abused lately. In the current trend of brickwalling music to death. Just like MIDI was abused not so long ago. When one would go to a website and cheesy MIDI music would play in the background.
    "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"--Dalai Lama

  17. #2817
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Happy Birthday, Compact Disc.
    This week saw the Compact Disc turn 40. Quite impressive, when you consider that the music industry appears to have been trying to kill it off for at least the last five of those 40 years, like some baddie in a the final act of a Hollywood action movie ("why won't you just die, goddammit?").
    I still love CDs, but even I have to admit that a CD in a jewel case with a thin, 4-page booklet, is no longer particularly sexy, especially for a tenner. CDs were attractive once, when they were new and 'high tech', but that was four decades ago. Just physically existing is a disadvantage these days, it seems. They're still kicking around the house, like a bored teenager who forgot to move out all those years ago. Discs ending up in the wrong cases. "Do something useful, get yourself on streaming!!"
    Meanwhile, the bigger, bulkier, and less convenient sibling, the vinyl record, has the red carpet rolled out. You've created a special area in the house for it."Make yourself comfortable, I'll come and check on you in a minute".
    For those who want to 'hold the music in their hands' (myself and just about all of the SDE community) I'm very pleased that CDs are still thriving, especially as part of music box sets. Even the BPI (British Phonographic Industry) earlier this year, in its March 'UK recorded music revenues' report, reminded its audience, somewhat grudgingly I thought, that "CD still generates marginally more than vinyl for record labels and their artists".
    That may well change this year, but for now, the CD isn't dead and so long live the CD!
    Have a great week and stay safe,
    Cheers,
    Paul
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    Paul Sinclair. Editor, SuperDeluxeEdition.

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    On the verge of indecision
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  18. #2818
    Member Firth's Avatar
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    Mind blowing:
    On the verge of indecision
    I'll always take the roundabout way

  19. #2819
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firth View Post
    Mind blowing:
    This sounds like automating, using artificial intelligence, to do the same thing that Mister Triscuits did--MANUALLY--when taking apart and remixing Soft Machine's "Third."

  20. #2820
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    This sounds like automating, using artificial intelligence, to do the same thing that Mister Triscuits did--MANUALLY--when taking apart and remixing Soft Machine's "Third."
    Thatís a minimization using buzz words of what they did. There was significant innovations in what they did, given a mono tape.
    On the verge of indecision
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  21. #2821
    Parrots ripped my flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    This sounds like automating, using artificial intelligence, to do the same thing that Mister Triscuits did--MANUALLY--when taking apart and remixing Soft Machine's "Third."
    Wasn't it LPerez, or did I miss something?

  22. #2822
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    ^ I think you're right.

  23. #2823
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave (in MA) View Post
    Wasn't it LPerez, or did I miss something?
    Oops, memory checksum error, 404 file not found

  24. #2824
    Parrots ripped my flesh Dave (in MA)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Oops, memory checksum error, 404 file not found
    Probable source of error:
    Mysterious Traveller - Mister Triscuits

  25. #2825
    Mysterious Triscuits
    "what's better, peanut butter or g-sharp minor?"
    - Sturgeon's Lawyer, 2021

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