Thread: The Audiophile Thread

  1. #2751
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    I think Class D amps are good for low power applications running full range, and they're good for subs at high power, but I've heard some high powered D amps running fullrange speakers and they did sound strident. I was able to power my Polk Audios with an 8w Dayton Super T that sounded pretty good.

  2. #2752
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3LockBox View Post
    I think Class D amps are good for low power applications running full range, and they're good for subs at high power, but I've heard some high powered D amps running fullrange speakers and they did sound strident. I was able to power my Polk Audios with an 8w Dayton Super T that sounded pretty good.
    The latest Jeff Rowland amps can be bridged just like Crowns to produce high current/power. Designers transition to output power MOSFETs which not only support low impedence/high current, but they are very fast at switching. I am not a designer but the accuracy of class D has much to do with bandwidth and phase noise/jitter. That’s because timing errors translate to amplitude errors. Internal noise is something Jeff Rowland paid much attention too.
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  3. #2753
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    Class I is the amp tech used by Crown and it’s amps like that which make for phenomenal sound from large arrays in PA systems.

    This new amplifier technology seamlessly integrates the amplifier drive stage into the power output stage fusing everything into a chip the size of a dime. The foundational DriveCore™ circuitry is based on breakthroughs by Crown's own Gerald Stanley with five patents applying to the advanced feedback, modulation and output stage technologies. DriveCore's front-end drive circuits leverage the inherent efficiency of Class D output stages while also maintaining superb sonic characteristics. The end result is an ultra-efficient one-piece audio amplifier circuit that exhibits the exemplary audio quality of a highly evolved Class AB design.

    Class-I, also known as BCA (Balanced Current Amplifier) is Crown’s patented, cutting-edge technology that gets more power out of an amplifier with less waste than was ever before possible. Class-I technology offers several key advantages. It provides unprecedented efficiency, requiring less power from the AC supply than other designs and that can add up to significant cost savings over the life of the amplifier. Class-I handles reactive loudspeaker loads easily and gracefully, by reusing energy returned from the loudspeaker rather than dissipating it as heat or forcing the amp into premature current limiting. This characteristic means class-I amplifiers run better and longer—especially at lower impedances. It also makes them more reliable, since they are not constantly stressed to their limits or subjected to excessive heat. Best of all, as proud owners can attest, amplifiers with class-I technology sound great, with a powerful, accurate sound that stands out from the competition.



    https://www.crownaudio.com/en/technology
    On the verge of indecision
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  4. #2754
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    The ability to handle back waves from loudspeakers is inherent in tube amp designs. However, high power MOSFETS which appeared in the late 70’s when I worked as an electronic designer, enabled designs which enabled designs with tube like characteristics. Early on they were not efficient (Hafler), Class A. Much later on (late 2010s) power MOSFETs were incorporated in hybrid designs. MOSFETs have great advantages on inputs and outputs of preamps/amps.
    On the verge of indecision
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  5. #2755
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    Any thoughts from our PE audiophile experts?

    Sb free read link here.
    https://wapo.st/3OWAE2A

    How a Phoenix record store owner set the audiophile world on fire
    MoFi Records claimed its expensive reissues were purely analog reproductions. It had been deceiving its customer base for years.

  6. #2756
    Member LASERCD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    Any thoughts from our PE audiophile experts?

    Sb free read link here.
    https://wapo.st/3OWAE2A

    How a Phoenix record store owner set the audiophile world on fire
    MoFi Records claimed its expensive reissues were purely analog reproductions. It had been deceiving its customer base for years.
    Been following it from the very beginning. Its going to kill MoFi’s business. I can easily envision a class action suit.

  7. #2757
    Member Jerjo's Avatar
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    I'm kinda hoping that the price of MoFi titles on Discogs will drop. Their release of The Who's Quadrophenia has been stuck in the same place for years. I've heard it - it obliviates the original mix and the Ghastly Astley remix.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  8. #2758
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    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    Been following it from the very beginning. Its going to kill MoFi’s business. I can easily envision a class action suit.
    Why is Esposito still refusing to say where he got the idea from this? Even in the article is mentions Michael Ludwigs from his 45 RPM YT channel....isn't this where it originated?

    As far as MoFi....total scammers imo. Their feet should be held to the fire....not the engineers that were "interviewed", but rather the suits who perpetuated this analog "one step" deceit. Lies are lies. I love the folks who are saying "its not a big deal....the sound is what matters". Sorry but we deserve to know. If I buy a 1793 French violin, I don't want a 1984 USA ripoff, I want a 1793 French violin.

  9. #2759
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    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    Any thoughts from our PE audiophile experts?

    Sb free read link here.
    https://wapo.st/3OWAE2A

    How a Phoenix record store owner set the audiophile world on fire
    MoFi Records claimed its expensive reissues were purely analog reproductions. It had been deceiving its customer base for years.
    I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, a lot of those MFSL titles sounded great before. How do they suddenly sound less great with the 'digital' revelation? On the other hand, I get it. MFSL have been pretty deceptive about the provenance of the tapes and sources used. I don't have any of those One Step reissues but I have several other MSFL titles. I think and/or would hope that they are going to be forthcoming about sources from here on out. I think this controversy is definitely going to have an effect on sales. They need to come down on prices, if nothing else. Charging $60 for a single 33 rpm record like ELO's Eldorado is fucking ridiculous. I mostly prefer to collect vintage OG pressings but I'll be curious to see how this plays out.

  10. #2760
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    MoFi Records sounds good - if they are worth the money is debatable.

    Lying about whether they are digital or analogue is SO stupid. It's about trust. And often you can hear the difference.
    Personally I don't care as long as the sound is good, but it should be declarated, especially because a lot of people find it very important, and one of the reasons why they buy MoFi 'pressings'.

  11. #2761
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    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    Why is Esposito still refusing to say where he got the idea from this? Even in the article is mentions Michael Ludwigs from his 45 RPM YT channel....isn't this where it originated?

    As far as MoFi....total scammers imo. Their feet should be held to the fire....not the engineers that were "interviewed", but rather the suits who perpetuated this analog "one step" deceit. Lies are lies. I love the folks who are saying "its not a big deal....the sound is what matters". Sorry but we deserve to know. If I buy a 1793 French violin, I don't want a 1984 USA ripoff, I want a 1793 French violin.
    I think Michael Ludwigs was the first person to question publicly what was apparent to all: you can’t run the tapes of Thriller 40x. A digital master was necessary. Mike Esposito ran with this. Apparently he was tipped off by a still to be named MoFi employee that not only was Thriller going to be digitally sourced but this was standard procedure at MoFi going back many years.

  12. #2762
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    Personally I’ve never been a fan of MoFi releases. The mastering EQ choices have always been a bit odd to my ears. I’ve purged almost all of the vintage MoFi vinyl from my collection. Ever listen to the MoFi DSOTM? Utter garbage.

    The one exception I’ve kept is their one-step of Yes “Fragile”. This was apparently cut from the analogue master. Again there are some odd EQ choices at play - Squire’s bass lines are more apparent on this pressing but at the same time its missing air on top. Its a touch closed in. Good separation of instruments and dead quiet pressing. I have not heard a UK plum pressing to compare so until then this is my go-to version.

    I heard the one-step of Santana “Abraxas” on a friend’s high end system and I enjoyed it but its a great recording to begin with. I suspect an OG would hold up in comparison. The 50th anniversary pressing was cut by Kevin Gray from the masters. Its still in print and cheap. I have a copy on order.

  13. #2763
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    There's an article on this in my Washington Post feed this AM. There's even quotes from a couple guys who post on Hoffman. It's the lying that will sink MoFi but then again, look at their consumer base. A lot of audiophiles who may not be quite as discerning as Ken but nonetheless will swear they can tell an immediate difference between analog and digital would have FREAKED if MoFi had announced this change years ago.

    I have vinyl that sounds better than the CD version and CDs that beat the same thing in vinyl. There are so many factors that creates a great recording and analog vs digital is just one part of the chain.
    I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart

  14. #2764
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    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    Personally I’ve never been a fan of MoFi releases. The mastering EQ choices have always been a bit odd to my ears. I’ve purged almost all of the vintage MoFi vinyl from my collection. Ever listen to the MoFi DSOTM? Utter garbage.

    The one exception I’ve kept is their one-step of Yes “Fragile”. This was apparently cut from the analogue master. Again there are some odd EQ choices at play - Squire’s bass lines are more apparent on this pressing but at the same time its missing air on top. Its a touch closed in. Good separation of instruments and dead quiet pressing. I have not heard a UK plum pressing to compare so until then this is my go-to version.

    I heard the one-step of Santana “Abraxas” on a friend’s high end system and I enjoyed it but its a great recording to begin with. I suspect an OG would hold up in comparison. The 50th anniversary pressing was cut by Kevin Gray from the masters. Its still in print and cheap. I have a copy on order.
    I always felt that MOFI's EQ choices were particularly odd back in the 70s/80s. If I'm not mistaken, the records were pressed in Japan. And Japanese vinyl usually sounds kind of bright to me. I know a lot of people love the MOFI "A Trick of the Tail" but, imo, they took an already rather bright sounding record and made it even more so. I have to admit though, that Japanese vinyl usually sounds very quiet. I've got some records that are 40 plus years old that barely elicit a tick.

    I do wish I had jumped on the one step of Fragile. I have the Kevin Gray/Steve Hoffman mastered record and I don't care for it.

  15. #2765
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    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    I think Michael Ludwigs was the first person to question publicly what was apparent to all: you can’t run the tapes of Thriller 40x. A digital master was necessary. Mike Esposito ran with this. Apparently he was tipped off by a still to be named MoFi employee that not only was Thriller going to be digitally sourced but this was standard procedure at MoFi going back many years.
    Ooooh, an inside job! Got it, thanks Ken.

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  17. #2767
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    ^^^ from the WaPo article something similar. Untrue narratives were “propagating”. Yes, because we were the ones spreading them!

    “There had been choices made over the years and choices in marketing that have led to confusion and anger and a lot of questions, and there were narratives that had been propagating for a while that were untrue or false or myths. We were wrong not to have addressed this sooner.”

  18. #2768
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    Things sound good because care and expertise went into making them sound good. The rest is religion.
    "I have not yet begun to procrastinate."

  19. #2769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    This has turned into an 80 page (and counting) debate on the Hoffman forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Rael View Post
    Geez Louise, in one more day that thread is now at 125 pages. I ain't wading through all that but I imagine it's people either bickering about Mofi or defending them.
    Less than two weeks later and it's now over 700 pages. Just in case anyone here thought the PE crowd gets a little too in-depth.
    Interviewer of reprobate ne'er-do-well musicians of the long-haired rock n' roll persuasion at: www.velvetthunder.co.uk and former scribe at Classic Rock Society. Only vaguely aware of anything other than music.

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  20. #2770
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progatron View Post
    Less than two weeks later and it's now over 700 pages. Just in case anyone here thought the PE crowd gets a little too in-depth.
    LOL

  21. #2771
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    Quote Originally Posted by LASERCD View Post
    Personally I’ve never been a fan of MoFi releases. The mastering EQ choices have always been a bit odd to my ears. I’ve purged almost all of the vintage MoFi vinyl from my collection. Ever listen to the MoFi DSOTM? Utter garbage.
    What I totally don't get is why do people go for Mofi when they could just potentially buy a VG+ original? Are Mofi's EQ choices that superior, or does going DSD first make them sound even "better"? Better engineers? I've never had interest in this label, I just try to get original pressings whenever possible. The prices are just insane too.

  22. #2772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeuhlmate View Post
    Instead of process marketing BS, why doesn’t Mr Marketeer just provide links to the detailed descriptions and specs.?
    On the verge of indecision
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  23. #2773
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    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    What I totally don't get is why do people go for Mofi when they could just potentially buy a VG+ original? Are Mofi's EQ choices that superior, or does going DSD first make them sound even "better"? Better engineers? I've never had interest in this label, I just try to get original pressings whenever possible. The prices are just insane too.
    Even as a sceptic of these high-priced 'boutique labels'- as you say, are they really that much better??- and as more of a CD guy, I'm amazed by how many of their titles have had digital involvement. There are more titles than these listed below, I think, this is from a few days ago.

    https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...#post-30126910

    Probably cheaper to buy good originals than any of this stuff, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by arturs View Post
    ^^^ from the WaPo article something similar. Untrue narratives were “propagating”. Yes, because we were the ones spreading them!
    Indeed. The only 'narrative' is that they used digital sources whilst hiding behind the language of all-analog transfers (let's put it that way). And they actually admit that's exactly what they have been doing, so for their statement to mention the word 'false' is quite something.
    Last edited by JJ88; 08-07-2022 at 10:20 AM.

  24. #2774
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    No doubt that different production methods, remastering and remixing can alter albums to better or worse, cant say I have heard many of MoFi's releases.

    CD's I own where I have compared:

    I have MoFi's In-a-gadda-da-vida which sounds better than the ordinary version.
    I have a goldplated version of KC-Thrak (7243 8 40324 2 5 KCCDX 1) that sounds considerably better than the ordinary version. I don't know if the gold plating has anything to do with it, its not a MoFi release)
    Same with a 24-bit remaster goldplated Santana Abraxas and goldplated Cream Disraeli and Cream Goodbye.
    I have japanese versions of Magma Hhai, Üdü Wüdü and Attahk (20 bit mastered) and I think Repertoire's versions of Gentle Giant are better than the 'ordinary'.

    Some of Wilsons mixes are really good, and some (like YES - Relayer) are not.
    I have a box with newly remastered versions of Focus albums where some of them are worse than the ordinary versions.

  25. #2775
    cunning linguist 3LockBox's Avatar
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    MSFL lying about their "one step" product... it's as though they knew that even the most golden eared of audiophiles couldn't tell the difference.

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