Happy The Man- s/t 'Masterpiece Debut'

[interbellum]

Final words in this thread from me on the Japanese version: I listened to Crafty Hands yesterday with the head-phones on. Must have been 20 years ago, but my memory was right: it sounds to me like a much used cassette-tape. It has short drop-outs, distortions and the pre-echo which we know from LP's when in a soft passage (or a silence between songs) the start of the next loud passage already can be heard. Maybe this version does justice to the actual LP, but not to the music which was recorded in the studio. Anyway, I couldn't listen to it much longer than three tracks. So if you want to buy this one based on this thread, be my guest, but don't be surprised when it will turn out to be a disappointment sonically. In my ears it doesn't capture the strength of Happy The Man. Go for the LP, I would say ;-)

[interbellum]

But what you posted doesn't answer that question-I know the release dates. I actually had hoped Vicky would be able answer.

Maybe this part of the post with the Rick Kennell-quote tells you something:

We were pretty unhappy with the way they sounded, so Kit cleaned them up and more or less "mastered" them in his home studio. This was the early nineties and he did an amazing job. These are the masters that most everyone is familiar with up until now. They are the masters that One Way and Musea used for their releases.

Esoteric got in touch with me kind of at the last minute. I actually pitched them for Kit to do the mastering, hoping he could take another shot with the newer technology and equipment he has in his studio now. Esoteric kind of has their own in-house mastering set up and they probably had the masters already done by the time we had communicated - so they politely declined the Kit offer. They claimed that they put up the vinyl vs. the Kit Masters to see what to use as their starting point and actually ended up using Kit's versions.

[JeffCarney]

Did it ever occur to you that your FAQ Nazi (or anal retentive or autistic) posts take up just as much time?

Do you truly not understand the difference between posts that are discussion-based and those which are requests for information?

You can hear what's being said to you, own it and not be offended, or try to get into a war of put downs. I'm not going down the name-calling path.

[JeffCarney]

Final words in this thread from me on the Japanese version: I listened to Crafty Hands yesterday with the head-phones on. Must have been 20 years ago, but my memory was right: it sounds to me like a much used cassette-tape. It has short drop-outs, distortions and the pre-echo which we know from LP's when in a soft passage (or a silence between songs) the start of the next loud passage already can be heard. Maybe this version does justice to the actual LP, but not to the music which was recorded in the studio. Anyway, I couldn't listen to it much longer than three tracks. So if you want to buy this one based on this thread, be my guest, but don't be surprised when it will turn out to be a disappointment sonically. In my ears it doesn't capture the strength of Happy The Man. Go for the LP, I would say ;-)

So you're basically saying that Ken Scott, who is widely regarded as one of the greatest engineers of all time, came up with productions for Happy The Man which were horrible?

After all, we know from the post by Kennell which you referenced, the old Japanese CDs were simply made from copy tapes. The only difference would be one generation and the copies were done without Dolby.

I certainly agree that those Japanese CDs don't capture the brilliance of the mixes like mint original vinyl, but Watkins mixes are even further removed. Sounding harsh, loud and sterile. And lacking the dynamics of the original mixes. A missed opportunity.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

Final words in this thread from me on the Japanese version: I listened to Crafty Hands yesterday with the head-phones on. Must have been 20 years ago, but my memory was right: it sounds to me like a much used cassette-tape. It has short drop-outs, distortions and the pre-echo which we know from LP's when in a soft passage (or a silence between songs) the start of the next loud passage already can be heard. Maybe this version does justice to the actual LP, but not to the music which was recorded in the studio. Anyway, I couldn't listen to it much longer than three tracks. So if you want to buy this one based on this thread, be my guest, but don't be surprised when it will turn out to be a disappointment sonically. In my ears it doesn't capture the strength of Happy The Man. Go for the LP, I would say ;-)

Yes, the LPs are likely the best sound you will get for the first 2 HTM albums... why? As Rick Kennell seems to indicate, the "master tapes" the Japanese used are the *only* master tapes available to use for anyone. So, if the Japanese CDs have droupouts and pre-echos then all other CDs made from these sole remaining masters will have those defects as well.

Fortunately, my vinyls are pristine, so when I get back around to the letter H, I will create my own digital remasters which will likely come out as good if not better (see Rick's notes on non-dolby) than any other official CD release of the first 2 albums.
Heck... may as well do Third at that time as well.

[JKL2000]

Maybe this part of the post with the Rick Kennell-quote tells you something:

Thanks-much appreciated!

[JKL2000]

Do you truly not understand the difference between posts that are discussion-based and those which are requests for information?

Of course I do - is one allowed and one not? No.

Sorry if my post was overboard - I do apologize for that.

[Dok]

After all, we know from the post by Kennell which you referenced, the old Japanese CDs were simply made from copy tapes. The only difference would be one generation and the copies were done without Dolby.

Did I miss something? I thought they were dubs of the safeties that were sent to Japan, which would make them twice removed from the original masters that haven't been found. Isn't that correct? Imagine hearing these remastered from the original masters then by someone who really knows what they're doing!

[JeffCarney]

Of course I do - is one allowed and one not? No.

Sorry if my post was overboard - I do apologize for that.

No worries. I said something I felt needed to be said. Over and done with.

[JeffCarney]

Did I miss something? I thought they were dubs of the safeties that were sent to Japan, which would make them twice removed from the original masters that haven't been found. Isn't that correct? Imagine hearing these remastered from the original masters then by someone who really knows what they're doing!

He doesn't specify how they were "duped." In 1988, that may well have been to DAT and then sent over to Japan. We could certainly call the Japanese CDs 2nd gen, however. You're right to point this out.

But it sounds like they were copied straight from the 1st gen tapes. I imagine it was likely to DAT or U-Matic.

I still think that while the source tapes were not ideal, the first issue Japanese CDs are as close as we've gotten to hearing the original mixes on CD. I personally can't agree that Kit Watkins' remasters are anything but an even further downgrade from the Japanese CDs due to way too much tampering. I haven't heard the Esoterics.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

according to Rick Kennell, Esoteric used Kit's remasters of the non-dolby safety masters as a starting point. Until we hear from Esoteric, we do not know what they did to Kit's remasters but, as you say, Kit's remastering technique (at least on Third... Better Late) is not very good.

[Dok]

according to Rick Kennell, Esoteric used Kit's remasters of the non-dolby safety masters as a starting point.

I believe this is what they did with the Wigwam reissues they released as well. Taken from the Love remasters... but, I could be wrong!

[JeffCarney]

I believe this is what they did with the Wigwam reissues they released as well. Taken from the Love remasters... but, I could be wrong!

Definitely true for Being. From the same, screwed-up 2001 remix.

[Enid]

I wouldn't mind purchasing the Esoteric version just for the booklet. Esoteric does a magnificent job at covering the history on any band.

[yesstiles]

Ya, the Esoteric booklet for Wigwam's "Fairyport" is the best of any cd version. I don't have the Esoteric "Being" but I bet it has the definitive booklet too. I'm a sucker for nice packaging.

[Enid]

Every Esoteric cd I own is just magnificent! The packaging is incredible and very suiting for how I personally want a band's history to be covered. Take for example an obscure band from the British Blues Boom era like Juicy Lucy or the Spooky Tooth anthology. I've been so spoiled that I want everything from the 70's to be released by Esoteric. They work very hard in a sincere way and because of that reality..it's well worth the price.

[interbellum]

So you're basically saying that Ken Scott, who is widely regarded as one of the greatest engineers of all time, came up with productions for Happy The Man which were horrible?

No, I'm not. I was talking about the quality of the Japanese version of Crafty Hands. I admire Scott's work very much and enjoyed reading his book "Abbey Road To Ziggy Stardust".

[JeffCarney]

No, I'm not. I was talking about the quality of the Japanese version of Crafty Hands. I admire Scott's work very much and enjoyed reading his book "Abbey Road To Ziggy Stardust".

As confirmed by the post you referenced, the old Japanese CDs are the mixes, as is. They lost a little from being from copy tapes and maybe have a drop-out here or there. But that's closer to how Scott's mixes sound than the overhauling by Kit Watkins for the One Way CDs.

Simple as that, I think.

[MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER]

since the "safety masters" did not have Dolby NR, they might actually contain more hiss than a pristine LP

[JeffCarney]

since the "safety masters" did not have Dolby NR, they might actually contain more hiss than a pristine LP

True.

Although I'm not sure we can be certain that the LPs weren't cut from those same copy tapes. Those were what was in the vaults, after all.