Complex fantasy

[dropforge]

If you want your fantasy a little less dark -

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/12/nee...stic-fantasies

I'd sooner recommend Robert E. Howard's Conan saga, Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar (Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser), and Karl Edward Wagner's Kane novellas. The Sword & Sorcery subgenre gets short shrift because it's "low fantasy" ("fantasy" minus the dwarves, gnomes, hobbits, elves and pixies) and doesn't involve the myriad strokes on Tolkien's canvas. Howard, Leiber and Wagner were every bit the writers (if not more so) that these Jordans, Martins, Donaldsons and Brooks guys are, the ones who are showered nonstop with accolades as though fire hydrants are broken in their honor.

[dropforge]

A short novel that really does sparse, evocative description well is Patricia McKillip's The Forgotten Beasts of Eld. It probably the antithesis of the works we're discussing here. IMO, it captures all that is epic and necessary in high fantasy with a startlingly effective economy of words.

IMO, these tend to be more successful. That's why Harlan Ellison never bothered writing a multi-volume saga, because he doesn't needs 8,000 pages to get to the point. Fritz Leiber's Our Lady of Darkness is one of the best short novels I've ever read, for the same reason you like Eld. It was published in F&SF, but when it won the World Fantasy Award, the publisher (Tor, I believe) rushed to reissue it as a mass market paperback.

[trurl]

Not to mention people like Harlan knew that he'd have a thousand more ideas by the next day and a hundred of them would be pretty good so he wasn't afraid to get onto something new. Fritz was hot and cold for me but his good stuff was very enjoyable.

[notallwhowander]

Yeah some of the Fafhrd & Grey Mouser stories are a bit phoned in, but then there are some that are brilliant. The whole novel about the rat city under Lankhmar is as good as Sword & Sorcery gets, IMO. I was rereading these about a year ago, and what got me was how much the first editions of Dungeons & Dragons were indebted to Leiber. Sure the gamemakers raided from everywhere, and Tolkien not the least, but the feel of the old game was 90% Leiber.

[trurl]

Oh yeah, especially the whole thief class- 100% Leiber.

[dropforge]

Yeah some of the Fafhrd & Grey Mouser stories are a bit phoned in, but then there are some that are brilliant. The whole novel about the rat city under Lankhmar is as good as Sword & Sorcery gets, IMO. I was rereading these about a year ago, and what got me was how much the first editions of Dungeons & Dragons were indebted to Leiber. Sure the gamemakers raided from everywhere, and Tolkien not the least, but the feel of the old game was 90% Leiber.

Leiber did receive royalties from TSR for their using some of this concepts, and then they went ahead and wrote up an entire system for Lankhmar that players could use, so he no doubt got some money from that.

What's interesting is that Harlan wrote — lamented, rather — of Fritz's final years, living in a small apartment like a pauper. Others said that wasn't the case, that Fritz wanted to live in San Francisco since he'd gotten divorced again and didn't mind his studio bachelor pad, preferring to keep things simple and have more money to spend when out on the town. I say it was 50/50.

[rickawakeman]

I recently finished (and loved) the Fionavar Tapestry (trilogy) by Guy Gavriel Kay. It was so densely "woven", I don't think this "tale" could have been told as effectively through anything less than a trilogy. Complex? Yes. But rewardingly so. Just started Robin Hobb's Farseer series and suspect I will be feeling similarly. My jumping-on point for all this complex high fantasy was Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy. Complex, long but beautiful and captivating stuff from one of my favorite SF authors.

[Yves]

Has anybody read "The Long Earth" by Terry Pratchett and Stephen Baxter? I saw the book; the concept looked interesting but I didn't feel like taking a punt there and then because I have found much "epic fantasy" disappointing.

The only Stephen Baxter stuff I have read have been books he's written as the lone credited author. His style leans towards Arthur C. Clarke. My favorite of his was "Evolution", where he speculates on human evolution from the Ice Age to post humans way in the future. The whole thing is written as a series of vignettes. His "Manifold" series was interesting also. It was made up of "Time", "Space", "Origin". The latter almost seemed like a prequel to "Evolution". I read another series whose title eludes me right now. It was a time-travel series. Decent but forgettable (as my not remembering the title would indicate...)

Of course, none of this relates to the topic of thread....

[bob_32_116]

My favorite of his was "Evolution", where he speculates on human evolution from the Ice Age to post humans way in the future. The whole thing is written as a series of vignettes......

Of course, none of this relates to the topic of thread....

Well, a few people have stuff in this thread that I consider SF rather than fantasy, so it seems we are being fairly causual about the distinction.

Therefore, since you mention this "Evolution" story, I recommend anybody who has not yet read "Last and First Men" " by Olaf Stapledon to do so as soon as possible, Certainly before you die. (Might be difficult afterwards.)

It purports to be a "history" of humanity from the time of writing until the eventual demise of the human race millions of years hence. Being written in the 1930's, obviously some of the earlier chapters got things a bit wrong, but by the time a few decades have passed, some of the predictions were eerily close to the mark - such as a world where the two great rival superpowers are America and China, and where the ever-increasing need for more and more energy is leading to environmental and economic crises, yet society is so locked into functioning in a certain way that it's next to impossible to fix the state of affairs.

Present day humanity is the "First Men". After their demise we get the rise of the Second Men, subtly different biologically. Later on, men create a number of super-intelligent "brains" (i.e. computers), which being far more clever than their creators, soon become the masters of the planet... until they realise their own limitations and create a new improved race of biological humans to replace themselves. And so on... there is a total of 18 races of men, beginning on Earth, relocating to Venus when Earth is about to experience an astronomical catastrophe, and eventually, when the sun goes nova, starting all over again on Neptune. It's a book not easily forgotten, and one that it's possible to read and reread.

[BobM]

I recently finished (and loved) the Fionavar Tapestry (trilogy) by Guy Gavriel Kay. It was so densely "woven", I don't think this "tale" could have been told as effectively through anything less than a trilogy. Complex? Yes. But rewardingly so. Just started Robin Hobb's Farseer series and suspect I will be feeling similarly. My jumping-on point for all this complex high fantasy was Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy. Complex, long but beautiful and captivating stuff from one of my favorite SF authors.

Anything Kay has written is an absolute gem of a read. He doesn't seem content to create a world, then continue writing about it for 5-10 books. He likes to create a new one for each book. Some are similar, but all are interestingly different in some ways too.


Who hear likes Lord Valentines Castle and the rest of the Majipoor Cycle by Robert Silverberg? I find that I like his writing as much as I like Kay's.

[PeterG]

Any Fred Saberhagen fans here?

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Tolkien also was basically creating a folklore narrative for things he had seen at the museums and universities that had been lost, but I get your point.

Well, no. What JRRT was explicitly trying to do - at least in the early years, with what eventually became The Silmarillion - was to create "a mythology for England," which he felt had none, the Arthurian mythos being largely French and Welsh.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Fantasy comedy pretty much begins and ends with Terry Pratchett. Steven Erikson can unleash some hilarious caustic one-liners but his books are pretty much just dark epic fantasy.

Much though I love Pratchett, you have to check out Tom Holt, especially earlier works like "Expecting Someone Taller" and "Flying Dutch."

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Has anybody read "The Long Earth" by Terry Pratchett and Stephen Baxter? I saw the book; the concept looked interesting but I didn't feel like taking a punt there and then because I have found much "epic fantasy" disappointing.

The "Long Earth" series isn't fantasy but science fiction. It's not bad, but it's much more Baxter than Pratchett.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Leiber did receive royalties from TSR for their using some of this concepts, and then they went ahead and wrote up an entire system for Lankhmar that players could use, so he no doubt got some money from that.

What's interesting is that Harlan wrote — lamented, rather — of Fritz's final years, living in a small apartment like a pauper. Others said that wasn't the case, that Fritz wanted to live in San Francisco since he'd gotten divorced again and didn't mind his studio bachelor pad, preferring to keep things simple and have more money to spend when out on the town. I say it was 50/50.

Ummm, no. He married twice, remained married to his first wife until her death, and married his second in the last years of his life. He never divorced anyone.

Fritz (I knew him, a little) was simply impoverished by the economics of science fiction/fantasy publishing at the time, and the machinations of "creative accounting" by publishers.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Therefore, since you mention this "Evolution" story, I recommend anybody who has not yet read "Last and First Men" " by Olaf Stapledon to do so as soon as possible, Certainly before you die. (Might be difficult afterwards.)

Agreed, but if you do, you must also read the semi-sequel, Star Maker, which takes "cosmic fiction" to the highest level it has ever achieved, going beyond the history of the Universe to a complete (if sketchy) history of *all* Universes. But read L&FM first.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

Who hear likes Lord Valentines Castle and the rest of the Majipoor Cycle by Robert Silverberg? I find that I like his writing as much as I like Kay's.

I like the original trilogy. The second trilogy, not so much. Also highly recommend some of his science fiction, like Dying Inside, The Man in the Maze, and The Alien Years.

[Rune Blackwings]

Well, no. What JRRT was explicitly trying to do - at least in the early years, with what eventually became The Silmarillion - was to create "a mythology for England," which he felt had none, the Arthurian mythos being largely French and Welsh.

England had had a folklore/mythology, but it had been mostly eradicated as "pagan". The remains of it were seen on things that the museums collected. So, although you are correct on he was creating a mythology for England, he was inspired by a lost one, if I recall from a documentary on him.

[Rune Blackwings]

The first was great, with the backstory for each character.

That drove me nuts. It was like "PICK A GENRE!!!"

[Dana5140]

There is so much "old" fantasy out there to catch up on. For example, I'm finally reading the Deryni stuff.

This was a series well worth reading. Katherine Kurtz switched between 2 different eras in these series, so that once you read the first, the second one (set earlier in time) helped provide context to the first, and so on. She actually has a new Deryni book just out a month or so ago. it has been a long time since the last.

I gave up on Robert Jordan and I gave up on Game of Thrones. It just seemed as though there was no end game. That was over 4000 pages of Jordan, for example.

What I find fun these days is urban fantasy. Almost all urban fantasy is in series form, and I like the Jane Yellowrock series, the Calliope Reaper Jones series (written by former Buffy the Vampire Slayer actor Amber Benson), etc.

[Azol]

My jumping-on point for all this complex high fantasy was Jack Vance's Lyonesse trilogy. Complex, long but beautiful and captivating stuff from one of my favorite SF authors.

Exactly what I am reading now (halfway through the first novel). Captivating, yes, but too polystylistic and uneven - the action frozes almost to a standstill then leaps ahead several years then drags again etc. He switches from high "epic" style to fairytale to some King-esque "shocking" scene (spoiler-- like ogre raping a girl --spoiler) then to more epic style and, finally, humour.

But I also took note of Kay recommendations - that will be my next stop it seems.

[BobM]

Th

What I find fun these days is urban fantasy. Almost all urban fantasy is in series form, and I like the Jane Yellowrock series, the Calliope Reaper Jones series (written by former Buffy the Vampire Slayer actor Amber Benson), etc.

Have you read The City and The City - China Mieville? Interesting story, but I can't say I've really gotten into his other books as much. His style takes some getting used to.

[bob_32_116]

Agreed, but if you do, you must also read the semi-sequel, Star Maker, which takes "cosmic fiction" to the highest level it has ever achieved, going beyond the history of the Universe to a complete (if sketchy) history of *all* Universes. But read L&FM first.

I've read both, but for some reason I did not like Star Maker as much. I think it's because L&FM is sort of believable if you keep allowing your imagination to stretch a little with each chapter, whereas Star Maker seemed to be positing some sort of Supreme Being (God if you like), which i thought was cheating. Also the manner in which the narrator experienced the other worlds and universes was more like a mystical out-of-body experience than believable science fiction. But yes they are both worth reading.

[dropforge]

Fritz (I knew him, a little) was simply impoverished by the economics of science fiction/fantasy publishing at the time, and the machinations of "creative accounting" by publishers.

That. What Harlan's rant concerned.

[JKL2000]

Any Fred Saberhagen fans here?

I love his Berserker stuff. I read all the stories and some of the novels. The Terminator movies could pretty much be thought of as stories occurring in the same future.

Oh, Cordwainer Smith! His SF stories are among the best. He was, I think, an ambassador who tried his hand at writing and was amazingly good.