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Thread: "Good music"/ "Bad music"

  1. #1

    "Good music"/ "Bad music"

    I might be fighting a losing battle here, because bottom line is- good/bad music is subjective. but I found myself in a friendly discussion with a friend after I criticized Glee & current pop music. She (rightfully) says books can send bad messages to youth (she used
    Girl Online, by Zoe Sugg as her example. Called it drivel)

    *I* thought like this book of drivel, music can be drivel as well. It's an art form too. She said no one has ever been able to explain to her what makes music objectively good, or objectively bad, only what they like and dislike (and perhaps what is 'clever'). And even that which might be objectively bad quality music wouldn't be thematically awful, like this book.

    Now I know she's right on that point. So I wanted to approach it from the production angle & maybe use a few examples of where music can be harmful to the wrong ears. (ie: the very young/ unstable & impressionable) For example- Eminem's misogyny or ICP's ultra-violent imagery.
    Today's production is so soulless to my ears. (though one can still say "depends who you ask".)

    Basically, I'm trying (probably in vain) to make a valid comparison to old school music (which *I* think had far more heart & soul) vs today's producer-driven assembly line dance pop.

    I should stand down & admit "defeat" here, huh?

  2. #2
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickenbacker View Post
    I should stand down & admit "defeat" here, huh?
    In a word, yes.
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I don't think music can ever be harmful -- PMRC notwithstanding. Violent misogynist lyrics are commonly understood to be "just lyrics." I am much more concerned that FPS first person shooter video games immunize young boys to the horror of war and violence. And video games are sold at Walmart.

    There are however other measures for "good" versus "bad."

    Music which is poorly performed -- out of tune, simplistic, mechanistic, derivative -- like Glee and American Idol and The Voice -- can legitimately be called bad music without fear of argument.
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 12-29-2014 at 12:50 PM.

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    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    My wife has a hard time reading anything she doesn't find to be "well written," even if it might be thematically interesting. Yet when it comes to music, she doesn't go for instrumental prowess much.

    I used to know someone whose significant other said about music "if you can't workout to it, what good is it?"

    It takes all kinds I guess.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    There is irony, however, in misogynist rap lyrics. Just as women's movement consciousness was being raised in the 1990s, promoting respect and dignity and equality under the law and in business for women, rap lyrics emerged denigrating and minimizing women. And they came from the very community that suffered the worst "second class citizen" mistreatment.

  6. #6
    Yeah, it is a tough debate to have. I'm just stubborn & would love to get through to her even a tiny bit. Lol!
    She said she has hope for youth because from books like "Online Girl", it's a short jump to John Green & better.
    *I* say it could be the same musically. It's a healthy thing to ask young listeners to dig a bit deeper & go from say, One Direction & Glee to Muse or Pink Floyd, for example.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    These days, ANY reading is surprising among young people.

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    Bad music, or bad lyrics?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Music which is poorly performed -- out of tune, simplistic, mechanistic, derivative -- like Glee and American Idol and The Voice -- can legitimately be called bad music without fear of argument.
    Agreed. Any other means of judging of how good or bad music is, is purely subjective. Some people hate the apparent chaos of Frank Zappa or the Mars Volta, others love it for the same reason.

    Lyrics though... I'd say lyrics can be bad in two ways. they can be poorly crafted, repeating phrases instead of using new ones, pulling in totally ridiculous and irrelevant words or phrases just for the sake of making things rhyme. Or they can be well crafted, but bad in the sense of encouraging antisocial behaviour, or just plain meanness or lack of compassion. That is, they can be judged by ethical standards, the same way a work of liteature can be judged.

    There is a bunch of post-millenium Jamaican artists/bands whose lyrics actively advocate violent homophobia. Among them are TOK, Beanie Man and Elephant Man. Are they musically talented? I'd probably have to say yes. Are their lyrics bad? Too right they are, I would call them evil.

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    "Bad" music, or "good" music poorly executed?



    (And if the latter, perhaps "executing" it was the whole point. In which case, it's "good" music on those terms.)

    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    judging of how good or bad music is, is purely subjective.
    But, our "subjective" responses don't develop in a vacuum; they're socially-informed.
    Last edited by mogrooves; 12-29-2014 at 02:37 PM.
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

  11. #11
    mo'- That has to be The Funniest thing I've heard all year.

  12. #12
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    I've always been in the "art is subjective" camp, but considering that the guy in the next office blaring Taylor Swift, I definitely think that lyrics can be considered "bad."
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

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    ALL ACCESS Gruno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickenbacker View Post
    It's a healthy thing to ask young listeners to dig a bit deeper & go from say, One Direction & Glee to Muse or Pink Floyd, for example.
    It is also healthy to enjoy all of it. No reason why anyone can't enjoy Glee/One Dir. while also enjoying Pink Floyd…

    PS.-- Bails -- Swift's latest release, 1979, is quite good, I must say. A good pop album. The song, "I Wish You Would", is a great one!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gruno View Post
    It is also healthy to enjoy all of it. No reason why anyone can't enjoy Glee/One Dir. while also enjoying Pink Floyd…

    PS.-- Bails -- Swift's latest release, 1979, is quite good, I must say. A good pop album. The song, "I Wish You Would", is a great one!
    1989?

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    ALL ACCESS Gruno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickenbacker View Post
    1989?
    Oops. Yes… 1989 is Taylor's latest album.

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    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gruno View Post
    PS.-- Bails -- Swift's latest release, 1979, is quite good, I must say. A good pop album. The song, "I Wish You Would", is a great one!
    Impossible.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

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    I heard 50s/60s/70s popular music from a young age so I know what it's capable of at its best. I therefore know when that standard is not being matched. In the field of pop music, I heard 'By The Time I Get To Phoenix' yesterday and I was spellbound from the start to the finish, even though I've heard it countless times before. There is just a pure, pretty much obvious quality about a composition like that.

    I certainly agree that much of what would make the pop charts now is swimming in overproduction and programming- this is not to my taste, and it's like the worst excesses of the 1980s again in this respect (with added autotune!). But it's wrong to look back with rose-tinted spectacles as there was rubbish across all eras. Anyone in the UK who has watched 'Top Of The Pops' repeats will testify to this.

    One thing is clear...the good stuff is not really making its way to the mainstream at the moment IMHO. Whereas it used to.
    Last edited by JJ88; 12-29-2014 at 03:54 PM.

  18. #18
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    But it's wrong to look back with rose-tinted spectacles as there was rubbish across all eras.
    Yes, and time has a way of weeding out the rubbish. When it's all current and new, you get the dreck along with the gold. After a few years, when you compile a history of the decade, you only mention the good stuff.

  19. #19
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    I am a fan of pop music - especially modern pop since about 2007 or so

    With that said, I'd like to remind everybody that music is one of the oldest forms of communication -- Sometimes, the simplest way of expression - an Occam's razor, if you will - gets the message communicated effectively and efficiently. A simple melody and basic drum machine beat with no fills can work better for certain things than hiring Yes to do what you'd expect them to do with the the backing tracks of some arbitrary pop song..........

    "I am an old fart" says what it needs to say more effectively than "I am a paleo-flatulence"

  20. #20
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    "I am an old fart" says what it needs to say more effectively than "I am a paleo-flatulence"
    Indeed, but the former is boring and cliched, while the latter has some flair.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  21. #21
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    And both describe modern pop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post

    I certainly agree that much of what would make the pop charts now is swimming in overproduction and programming- this is not to my taste, and it's like the worst excesses of the 1980s again in this respect (with added autotune!). But it's wrong to look back with rose-tinted spectacles as there was rubbish across all eras.
    Exactly, when I was growing up in the 70’s there was plenty of terrible pop music. The same era that produced Led Zeppelin, and Pink Floyd also produced Disco. My sister had posters of Shawn Cassidy and the like on her wall. The music was absolute crap, but appealed to the same demographic then that today’s pop stars appeal to today.

  23. #23
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    And both describe modern pop.

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    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSly View Post
    The same era that produced Led Zeppelin, and Pink Floyd also produced Disco.
    And someone else would say that "the same era that produced Disco also produced Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd." Both statements could be responded to thusly:

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ88 View Post
    this is not to my taste.
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

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    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    And someone else would say that "the same era that produced Disco also produced Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd." Both statements could be responded to thusly:
    Good point!

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