Jimmy Page- Grumpy Old Man?

[Adm.Kirk]

Bonham was a Motown man, that's for sure as was John Paul Jones. I think that's a major reason they were as good as they were. They were able to make anything Page and Plant threw at them work.

I would never say Bonham swings in the way the classic jazz drummers do. I do think he had his own internal (feel, groove, swing) that he used.

I do disagree with what Page said about Bonham and the McCartney tracks. Bonham can be immediately identified. He also recorded Rockestra with McCartney too. It would have been interesting to hear him play more with McCartney.

Bill

[Jay.Dee]

That's Bonzo playing the purdie shuffle...one of the great funk\soul rock grooves.I'd tend to say it grooves like a mofo rather than swings.It's still got the heavy straight eighth pulse rock backbeat despite the ghost notes on the snare giving it a serious triplet feel.

It seems a lot of people take the term "swinging" when talking about drumming to be interchangeable with saying someone grooves or has great feel these days. Nothing wrong with that, maybe for the best, but i think over past decades when musicians\listeners say a drummer "swings" or not they are tending to mostly look at it from the classic jazz swing-feel perspective developed 30s-60s....hell, it was mostly brought up for decades as a snobby way jazz guys would put rock players\each other down, or to compliment each other.

Correct. Most of "swinging" and "grooving" in the pop/rock is technically a variant of shuffle rhythm. In the video below the instructor introduces the swing rhythm for the first 8 minutes, and then at the 8:30 mark he moves to explain the shuffle beat. Finally, at the 12:33 mark he demonstrates the difference between these two modes playing a number that starts with the shuffle rhythm and switches to the swing at the 14:47.



Out of famous classic rock drummers probably only Ginger Baker demonstrated swing capabilities in his jazz projects, while the others AFAIK only hinted their potential swinging skills, like Mitch Mitchell, Bill Ward, Jon Hiseman, etc.

Somehow the traditional swing feel was rarely employed in the rock (or even jazz-rock) context, so it should not surprise that rock drummers were never among highly respected swing masters. Even Ginger Baker's swinging was considered stiff and heavy-handed in traditional jazz circles, which of course did not prevent him from using the same clichéd argument to put his rock peers down.

[Watanabe]

That's a good video jay.

Many of the better rock players that learned their trade in the 60s when jazz drumming was hip can swing to some extent, but it's true outright post-bop or big band swing rhythm's were rarely utilised in full(usually just the occasional song or for brief colouring change behind a solo etc)...rather the influence and knowledge would tend to colour a player's rock feel...ie Clive Bunker or Mitch Mitchell's feel even when playing rock beats compared to the more soul influened Bonham's, or a guy like Peart who had little jazz background in his playing at all.

I tend to refer to players like Mitchell, baker, hiseman etc as "crossover" players.They take a stuff out of a few styles and blended it into something new for the rock music they were playing.Obviously to be a true master of a swing feel you would need to be dedicating a great deal of time and practice playing stuff that predominantly utilises that feel, hence it's 95% of the time a jazz thing.You can't compare guys like Giles, Mitchell and Baker to the jazz greats like Elvin, Philly Joe, Billy Higgins, Roach etc even though they do or at one point did have a mature competent sense of that style.

[Jay.Dee]

Pip Pyle could definitely swing and he was a classic (progressive) rock drummer too, wasn't he?

I am listening now to his "Bash! Belle Illusion" that I have recently purchased at the local jazz store, and the cat gracefully swings in some numbers. Really good live slice of modern progressive jazz(-rock).

[JKL2000]

[JKL2000]

F*ck swinging!!!

Happy Hannukah!

[Ripples]

Not meant that way at all.

I just don't think I'd have any deep musical connection with anyone who thinks Ginger Baker "sucks," is "overrated" or somesuch ...

There is no right or wrong on any of this stuff.

So in my book he is overrated, sorry but every time I saw him playing live or on the albums I have never been moved by his timing or style.

On the same note everyone also says Buddy Rich was a real asshole, but he was clearly a genius, and Ginger is not even close.

[Dave (in MA)]

F*ck swinging!!!

Happy Hannukah!

You forgot to provide a link, so I fixed it for you.

[JKL2000]

You forgot to provide a link, so I fixed it for you.

I ain't clicking on that. It's a fuck swing, isn't it?

[bob_32_116]

It's hard to judge the tone of his responses when you see them in print, but none of that 'sounded' particularly grumpy or bad-tempered.

My thoughts exactly. He was asked for opinions, and gave them.

Of course I note that "grumpy old man" is an epithet that often simply seems to mean "old man who says things I don't happen to agree with."It's a very neat way of diverting the discuission from the topic on hand and putting the focus on someone's age and gender.

[Halmyre]

My thoughts exactly. He was asked for opinions, and gave them.

Of course I note that "grumpy old man" is an epithet that often simply seems to mean "old man who says things I don't happen to agree with."It's a very neat way of diverting the discuission from the topic on hand and putting the focus on someone's age and gender.

In Ginger Baker's case, I think it's a remarkably accurrate epithet. Of course, he could just be winding everybody up.

[GuitarGeek]

In Ginger Baker's case, I think it's a remarkably accurrate epithet. Of course, he could just be winding everybody up.

A 3-4 decade long "wind up"? That's a pretty impressive feat of "showmanship" or whatever want to call it, bordering on the pathological, if you ask me.

I still can't believe he actually tried to get Harvey Bainbridge fired from Hawkwind.

[bob_32_116]

Puh-leeze. If we can include everything from Ugg the Caveman to Miley Cyrus...

Now there's a collaboration I'd like to see happen. Whether Miley would survive the encounter is another matter, but perhaps that would be no bad thing.

[JJ88]

A 3-4 decade long "wind up"? That's a pretty impressive feat of "showmanship" or whatever want to call it, bordering on the pathological, if you ask me.

I still can't believe he actually tried to get Harvey Bainbridge fired from Hawkwind.

He's gotten worse with age. I've seen older interviews with him where he's much less cantankerous and embittered. I get the sense he's 'playing' at it, knowing he's going to get a reaction every time. I suppose there is an entertainment value with it, but a limited one.

[moecurlythanu]

I've given it some thought, and I really think the controversy could have been avoided if they had written the subject as: "Jimmy Page- Frumpy Old Man?"

[ronmac]

I've given it some thought, and I really think the controversy could have been avoided if they had written the subject as: "Jimmy Page- Frumpy Old Man?"

I'm guessing that would simply have led us into the "Page stole frumpiness from blues artists" discussion.

[JKL2000]

[alucard]

There's more to jazz than swing. A lot more. And I don't think Ginger would have cut it in Coltrane's band either.

I like both rock and jazz drumming, but one of my most memorable experiences was seeing Elvin Jones in concert. The concert took place in a park in summer with kids running around screaming, but it was a highly spiritual experience and when the concert stopped no one applauded. The entire audience was just silent for some time and the band left the stage and only then everybody started to clap hands and the band came back and got a standing ovation. It's not about technique.

[Ripples]

I like both rock and jazz drumming, but one of my most memorable experiences was seeing Elvin Jones in concert. The concert took place in a park in summer with kids running around screaming, but it was a highly spiritual experience and when the concert stopped no one applauded. The entire audience was just silent for some time and the band left the stage and only then everybody started to clap hands and the band came back and got a standing ovation. It's not about technique.

I know the feeling, I call it meltdown.

But I would say it is not swing either, because swing refers to a type of music. It is about timing in essence, and some people are born with it, and some are not.
The greatest concerts I have ever seen revolved around this fact, most were with top Jazz drummers. But just because you are in that category does not mean you have it.

[bmooncd]

A classy interview, clickbaited. I'm guessing you've never read articles that don't utilize it.