Yeah, his style isn't for everyone, being so distinctive in feel and relatively unorthodox, but he gets more flack than just about any other "classic rock" drummer that i've seen on the net for his playing.... in no small part due to his asshole personality i feel.Nowadays at least, definitely not a good pick for "overrated".
Baker and Drumbo French did more than anyone in that late 60s period when rock drumming was truly evolving it's own voice as far as bringing creative, musical polyrhythms into rock playing goes imo.Like or hate his style, his legacy is assured for that contribution alone.
Agreed, except that French's influence was truly limited.
Baker changed rock drumming forever. Using toms the way he did, his polyrhythmic, orchestral and jazz capabilities, being capable of arranging ...
He's one of those guys where it's gotten to the point that if I see somebody criticize him, I admit to assuming the person doesn't know squat and probably isn't to be paid much attention with regard to other musical tastes. We just wouldn't be on the same page.
With all respect to Bonham, to even compare the two is asinine, IMO. And the fact that some drummers whom I admire speak highly of Bonham or Baker is an asshole and all the rest of it is irrelevant if I call it like I hear it. Bonham was one of the great rock drummers of his time, but Baker was magical and sometimes positively sublime. As I think I noted in a thread here recently, his drumming on Blind Faith's "Can't Find My Way Home" is flat out genius. Bonham couldn't have moved an acoustic piece along like with that level of subtlety, swing and restraint in his dreams.
^^^ Viukkis : Thanks for that ! A lame duck of a song, but (historic documentation aside) the drumming is top-notch. And it like, um, swings, and works well with the bass as a cool jam ! Phuck yeagh, John Henry.
If you cant hear that Bonzo swings, I fear that we dont share the definition of "swing".
The lemon song ? Doesnt make sense to mention one song, he swings like hell even though he plays so heavily.
(I'm also a fan of much of Gingers drumming, but its possible to find examples where he is surprisingly sloppy: Cream - World of pain)
There's no right or wrong indeed. I can appreciate what Baker did but in the greater scheme of things I think the drummers that followed usurped him and that never helped Ginger's mean disposition. I'd much rather listen to Moon, Bonham, Ward, or Paice - they had a helluva a lot more OOOMPH to their sound. If I want transcendence from drums, I'll put on Aja. Being able to swing is a nice gift but it doesn't make or break you as a rock drummer. Bonham's strengths were his relentless power, utter control over the volume of his kit and the way he tuned it, those titanic trainwreck rolls, and the ability to play just behind the beat like Motown master Uriel Jones. Bonzo always looked up to Baker and I think Ginger ragging on him and Moon is just tasteless and spiteful. There is very little grace in that man, whatever his gifts.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down.'- Bob Newhart
I stand corrected on Charlie Watts. I went back and read some of his comments in Rolling Stone and he's complimentary of Watts. My mistake.
In regards to Bonham, I don't think we are talking about swing music, but in how he plays. I don't think of Chris Slade or Lee Kerslake as drummers who swing. Charlie Watts and Bonham swing but they don't play swing music.
Bill
She'll be standing on the bar soon
With a fish head and a harpoon
and a fake beard plastered on her brow.
I think Fool In The Rain swings like a mofo and that Bonham always had a natural circularity to his groove that feels swinging to me. Swing doesn't always need to equate to jazz, right?
Why do some people have to feel that musicians whom they admire are great at everything?
Nobody is saying that Bonham didn't swing on some occasions. The point is that he wasn't particularly good at it.
His style was far too stiff to be jazzy. Had he been more jazzy, maybe he wouldn't have been one of the greatest power drummers of all time? People can call Baker an asshole for saying what he did because it shows no class, but I don't think anybody with any knowledge of Jazz and the looseness required to truly swing could argue that he was "wrong." The bigger point to me would be what is the relevance of that criticism? Ttbomk, Bonham never claimed to be influenced greatly by Jazz. Baker regards Jazz and African music as the ultimate form of measurement for drummers, but that is only his own form of judgment.
Baker may have swung on his latter day jazz releases done for Atlantic, but for my money, he was eminently schooled by both Charlie Haden and Bill Frisell, and shown to be out of his element on many levels.
Despite the fact that I think Baker is grumpy and bitter, he is one hell of a drummer. And while Bonham may not have been able to do what Baker did on the Blind Faith record I don't think Ginger could do what Bonham does on Achilles' Last Stand either.
Bill
She'll be standing on the bar soon
With a fish head and a harpoon
and a fake beard plastered on her brow.
That's Bonzo playing the purdie shuffle...one of the great funk\soul rock grooves.I'd tend to say it grooves like a mofo rather than swings.It's still got the heavy straight eighth pulse rock backbeat despite the ghost notes on the snare giving it a serious triplet feel.
It seems a lot of people take the term "swinging" when talking about drumming to be interchangeable with saying someone grooves or has great feel these days.Nothing wrong with that, maybe for the best, but i think over past decades when musicians\listeners say a drummer "swings" or not they are tending to mostly look at it from the classic jazz swing-feel perspective developed 30s-60s....hell, it was mostly brought up for decades as a snobby way jazz guys would put rock players\each other down, or to compliment each other.
That is, a swung triplet pulse to the straight-eighth note value(english is not my first language so i hope i'm explaining that right) with the triplet timekeeping on the hi-hat or ride, with the snare and bass used for playing around the beat with comping and accents.A distinct way of playing that differs from the eights being played completely straight down the line as in basic rock, funk, soul etc beats.
Mitch Mitchell on Third Stone From the Sun(or If Six was Nine) is probably one of the best examples of a legendary rock drummer using both straight rock and swing feels, starting with swing..
Starting at 2:35 he's killing with that snare comping.
Or Baker behind the sax soloing on "dick's instrumental" with Graham bond, or behind the main theme of Wade in the Water.More of a heavy Blakey influenced hard bop feel.
That's basically the crux of the argument... are we talking about swing as "has great groove and is not mechanical" or swing literally as "can do a dotted 8th feel".
Incidentally, just found a second take of Wade that smokes!
You mean, stay awake?Originally Posted by Adm.Kirk
I'm kidding. I love that song.
We're trying to build a monument to show that we were here
It won't be visible through the air
And there won't be any shade to cool the monument to prove that we were here. - Gene Parsons, 1973
"Swing" is part of the evolution of Jazz music.
This thread is becoming bizarre. This isn't "What Is Prog?"
Swing is part of the tradition of American Jazz music. Rock has enough ownership of the music world. If we're going to start redefining Jazz terminology so that we can argue that a Rock drummer such as John Bonham could "swing," we are off the deep end, IMO.
Max Roach swings. Elvin Jones swings. John Bonham grooves or even shuffles, but he does not swing like a Jazz drummer.
Again, Ginger Baker may be an arrogant prick, but he defines drum capabilities to a large degree via Jazz music principles. In that context, his comments about Bonham are reasonably accurate. He has a right to that personal assessment and to view himself as a superior drummer to Bonham.
But in the context of Led Zeppelin why would he? There's a world of difference between "can't" and "doesn't".
I've owned drum machines that had a "swing" function.
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