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Thread: Classical -vs- Rock/ Contemporary

  1. #1
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    Classical -vs- Rock/ Contemporary

    Evening....

    Just finished one of my Friday Evening Listening sessions! Tonight it was the Concerto for Orchestra (Bartok). While listening, eating some 'Taco Seasoning and Butter' on popcorn and leading to further enhancement, it occured to me that while listening to 'classical' music - it always seems like the Orchestra is playing inside and inbetween my speakers, while 'rock/contemporary' music most often leaves the speakers and travels to my ears! I'm not sure which movement - but I wanted to just grab the orchestra and pull it toward me.

    I would reason that orchestras are recorded as 'one instrument' and each instrument or section of the orchestra is NOT recorded separately.

    Thought some folks here could give some in-sight.

    Thanks
    Chris Buckley
    Last edited by winkersnufs; 12-05-2014 at 07:53 PM. Reason: mis-spell

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    I'm no sound engineer so I can't really help. Possibly it has something to do with the fact that classical music tends to be written with live performance in mind and the recording is almost an afterthought, whereas rock and pop is often the other way round.

    I find it interesting though that most music - certainly of the classical variety - was almost certainly not written with the physical arrangement of the instruments and the listener in mind. Classical music for orchestra would normally be listened to by a large number of people in a large hall - it's inevitable that some people would be closer to the string section and would hear it as louder, while some would be a bit bit closer to the horns... other members of the audience further back would probably hear the music as though all the instruments were located at the same point. Yet the recording industry has made a big feature of stereo, and later quad and surround sound.

    My uncle who was a classical music buff had his special chair for listening, located at the optimum listening point between the speakers - everyone else was welcome to sit where they liked, but that was his spot. Personally it's never been that important to me to get the illusion of certain instruments being located at certain places in the room.

    I do know what you mean about "traveling to your ears." The first time I listened to Brian Wilson's SMiLE at home, when the opening notes began I had the impression the music was jumping out at me.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for your words....

    I know what you mean regarding BW and Smile. You are speaking of the acapella introduction correct? Absolutely Wonderful!

    Just listened to 'Piper at the Gates of Dawn' and the listening was a confirming night to day difference from Bartok/Orchestra.....

    Carry On

    Chris Buckley
    Last edited by winkersnufs; 12-06-2014 at 11:13 PM.

  4. #4
    I listen to a lot of classical music, mainly orchestral, and I have a specific listening chair so that both speakers are located the same distance from my respective left and right ear. I have to have it that way. The speakers I like that way to revel in the "orchestral texture" of a given symphony and conductor.
    Same physical set up for listening to prog and jazz too, but I guess for a different reason, not for "texture" but an almost "chamber music effect" where, yeah, things "jump out" to you.
    Also, when I listen to music, I don't move or do any other activity, so I can be "one" with the music, I guess.
    "and what music unites, man should not take apart"-Helmut Koellen

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by winkersnufs View Post
    it always seems like the Orchestra is playing inside and inbetween my speakers, while 'rock/contemporary' music most often leaves the speakers and travels to my ears!
    Not a clue what you're talking about. If anything, I hear things the other way around -- I'm more easily convinced that I'm hearing an actual orchestra "through" the speakers with well-recorded orchestral music (rather than a two-dimensional recording). What recording of Concerto for Orchestra were you listening to, a recent one or an ancient one? The older ones tend to have less bass, and that would give me "stuck in the speakers" sound.

    Might I recommend this one:
    rcarlberg: Is there anything sadder than a song that has never been played?
    Plasmatopia: Maybe a song in D minor that has never been played?

    bob_32_116: That would be a terrific triple bill: Cyan, Magenta and Yello.

    trurl: The Odyssey: "He's trying to get home."

  6. #6
    Member No Pride's Avatar
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    ^
    My dad is on that recording (playing percussion). He was in the CSO for 31 years. I've mentioned this before, but since you're kinda new here, thought I'd bring it up again. Fritz Reiner was a big advocate of Bartok's.

    Anyway, you should be able to hear stereo separation on a good orchestral recording, old or new.

  7. #7
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winkersnufs View Post
    it always seems like the Orchestra is playing inside and inbetween my speakers, while 'rock/contemporary' music most often leaves the speakers and travels to my ears! I'm not sure which movement - but I wanted to just grab the orchestra and pull it toward me.

    I would reason that orchestras are recorded as 'one instrument' and each instrument or section of the orchestra is NOT recorded separately.

    Thought some folks here could give some in-sight.

    Thanks
    Chris Buckley
    You are essentially correct in your analysis, it's a difference in recording philosophies. If you were to seek out some of the rare binaural rock/folk/country recordings you would find that they too, like the classical ones, tend to come from BEHIND the speakers instead of IN FRONT OF the speakers as in a conventional multi-track recordings.

    Binaural recordings, true binaural anyway, are recorded with an artificial head system where two microphones sit where the ears are in a dummy head. By simulating a real listener's position, the recording (on headphones) sounds like you're really there. It's not so much the use of a dummy head that makes the difference; it's the simple recording using only two microphones (or a stereo microphone) to capture the sound realistically.

    With a large symphony orchestra, due to the cost mostly they're recorded playing all together. Soloists may be recorded separately and dubbed in later, but most recordings, particularly older ones like your Bartok, while not "binaural" per se, are recorded in situ as the orchestra played and so play back as if binaural.

    Modern studio recordings OTOH (except for Rudy Van Gelder, Manfred Eicher, Alfred Wolf and a few other "retro" engineers) are compiled of separate isolated tracks, using panpots to place the instruments in the left-right spectrum.

    It sounds fine for what it is. On headphones the sound is "inside your head" instead of outside as in binaural.

    Personally I prefer binaural but it's rarer than hen's teeth.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by No Pride View Post
    ^
    My dad is on that recording (playing percussion). He was in the CSO for 31 years. I've mentioned this before, but since you're kinda new here, thought I'd bring it up again. Fritz Reiner was a big advocate of Bartok's.
    Cool!
    rcarlberg: Is there anything sadder than a song that has never been played?
    Plasmatopia: Maybe a song in D minor that has never been played?

    bob_32_116: That would be a terrific triple bill: Cyan, Magenta and Yello.

    trurl: The Odyssey: "He's trying to get home."

  9. #9
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Incidentally, here are a couple of good binaural recordings you can try out for free:
    http://suzybogguss.com/binaural/recordings.html
    http://www.amazon.com/Close-Ottmar-L...ebert+up+close
    Last edited by rcarlberg; 12-06-2014 at 12:33 PM.

  10. #10
    Classical music is recorded with a much different philosophy than any rock, pop, country, rap form of music.

    In general, classical is recorded in a venue designed for live music (with an audience), it is recorded with a minimum number of mics, and no studio manipulation.

    The goal is to capture a performance, including as much of the hall acoustical ambiance as possible. When this is done correctly, the end result (when listened through a system that is capable) will be an image that behind the speakers, and extend back in space to the rear limits of the stage. And will extend laterally from left to right, beyond the edges of the speakers. On a good system, percussion instruments really seem like they are coming from behind the strings and flutes, and well behind the physical location of the speakers, just like they would in an orchestra. Strings are spread out from left to right, with violins on the left, cellos and basses on the right, etc.

    More or less like the sound would be if you 10 rows back at the performance.

    With chamber ensembles, the image is obviously more intimate. But it will still be behind the speakers, and spread out in

    There should be a real sense of real musicians, playing real instruments, in a real space.

    With rock and pop recordings, there is no attempt to try to reproduce a performance in a real space. There is no telling how the engineer manipulated the individual musician's tracks. With few exceptions, the end result does not in the least sound like real people playing in a real space. Some instruments will sound bigger than life, some will sound like they are coming from a different space than the rest of them, drum kits will sound like they are spread across the entire sound stage, etc.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  11. #11
    Well put, simon moon.

    Chris, it's important to keep in mind that the history of classical music recording goes back to the very beginning of recorded sound. To say that you're listening to Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra says very little about your listening experience. Orchestra, conductor and date of recording are very important pieces of data. Classical afficionados tend to spend a lot of time geeking out on comparing multiple recordings of the same piece to find just the right one for the way they hear things.

    Besides the issue of whether it's a stereo or mono recording, the role of the recording engineer's philosophy is huge in classical music. For the Reiner recording referenced above, RCA was getting an astounding, very involving sound with panoramic stereo separation and a lot of instrumental detail right in your face. Believe me, the brass toward the end of the first movement will travel to your ears. Cellos and violas have a velvety grit like a Strat through a Marshall. These recordings are electrifying. Also, as noted, Fritz Reiner really had a knack for bringing out a ton of drama and dynamism in Bartok's music. Generally, recordings these days go for a more distant "natural" sound that is very satisfying but is best heard on top notch reproduction equipment meticulously set up. Hence the uncle sweet spot story.

    I recommend trying a couple more Bartok Concerto for Orchestra recordings. Your local library system should be full of them. There are about 60 on Spotify. This is a great piece to spend some time obsessing on.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the replies!

    Here's some more information:

    Bartok - Warner Music Group Finlandia Records Warner Classics U.K.

    System - Denon CD/DVD, Audio Source Amp and Pre-Amp, Ultragraph Pro Equalizer and Totem Acoustic Speakers. Certainly not top of the line hardware but the set-up serves my music room quite well!

    I do tend to have my ears centered for the listening experience although I have to give the 'left side' a bit more in balance due to the way my seating is set up. Certainly! The room itself has bearing on the way the music is received. Again.... sounds pretty splendid in whole.

    Upon further listening experiences, across the whole of my collection, perhaps I'm going to listen to things just a bit differently now that I have some more information.

    Thanks Indeed!

    Chris Buckley

  13. #13
    So ... 1961? That shouldn't be too bad, it's not a historic recording...is it?
    rcarlberg: Is there anything sadder than a song that has never been played?
    Plasmatopia: Maybe a song in D minor that has never been played?

    bob_32_116: That would be a terrific triple bill: Cyan, Magenta and Yello.

    trurl: The Odyssey: "He's trying to get home."

  14. #14
    An interesting topic. And just something I've noticed - to my layman's ear, the orchestral mixes of original material for things like, say, modern popular film soundtracks - often sound much louder, artificially "defined" and up-front than a recording of a piece of contemporaneously-recorded classical music intended as such would.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by winkersnufs View Post
    Thanks for the replies!

    System - Denon CD/DVD, Audio Source Amp and Pre-Amp, Ultragraph Pro Equalizer and Totem Acoustic Speakers. Certainly not top of the line hardware but the set-up serves my music room quite well!
    Sounds like a darn good system.

    All the Totem Acoustic speakers I've heard have the ability to create a good image. You should be able to sense depth and width of the venue where the orchestra is playing with that system.


    Upon further listening experiences, across the whole of my collection, perhaps I'm going to listen to things just a bit differently now that I have some more information.
    I would highly recommend going to see some live classical music. Preferably a piece that you already are familiar with. Even if it is not a world class orchestra in a world class hall. It will give you a great idea of how classical music should sound, and will let you appreciate how classical music is recorded.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Facelift View Post
    An interesting topic. And just something I've noticed - to my layman's ear, the orchestral mixes of original material for things like, say, modern popular film soundtracks - often sound much louder, artificially "defined" and up-front than a recording of a piece of contemporaneously-recorded classical music intended as such would.
    This is a great point. My real introduction to orchestral music was incessantly listening to the original John Williams Star Wars soundtrack as an 11-year old. Although I still love its energy, after decades of my listening to classical recordings it sounds strident, unnatural, bathroomy and a little sloppy, especially in the strings.

    And yes, that sounds like a nice system.

  17. #17
    Back in the day most classical recording were done with a mic (in the mono days) and then 2 mics (for stereo). One per speaker. Purist recordings today are done the same way but now it is not uncommon to have multiple mics set up so the different sections can be mixed in much the same way a rock record is. On occasion for certain live shows I've seen every instrument in an orchestra have its own mic or contact pickup. Usually that kind of crap is for live, like I said, where you want to be able to fix things because you only got one shot at it, or movie scores where they are idiots with unlimited budgets and like to have 8,000 tracks to mix in post for surround and because you have no idea what other sound f/x you have to contend with. That kind of thing gets you in deep trouble with phase issues and other tech stuff. Generally a good orchestra recording, imho, should still be done with as few mics as possible, out front, with the players balancing themselves.

  18. #18
    Member Guitarplyrjvb's Avatar
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    I have that Reiner/CSO w/ Ernie's Dad! It's a classic! Um, no pun intended!

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    Good Day Thursday -

    Gave the 'Yellow Shark' by Frank Zappa a listen yesterday evening and it was a noticeably different experience as compared to the Bartok. Perhaps! Rightfully so as the 'composer', the ensemble, recording techniques, and the era of recording could quite certainly make a difference.

    I'm going to give that release another listen this evening and see if it has the same impact as yesterday.

    As we were...

    Chris Buckley

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarplyrjvb View Post
    I have that Reiner/CSO w/ Ernie's Dad! It's a classic! Um, no pun intended!
    Me too. It's a classic.

  21. #21
    Fritz Reiner and the CSO also did a landmark series of recordings of Richard Strauss's Tone Poems in the 1950s-recordings that are up there with anything current and digital.
    "and what music unites, man should not take apart"-Helmut Koellen

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    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by presdoug View Post
    Fritz Reiner and the CSO also did a landmark series of recordings of Richard Strauss's Tone Poems in the 1950s-recordings that are up there with anything current and digital.
    Indeed. If you can overlook a modicum of tape hiss -- and who can't? -- many of the Ormandy/Philadelphia, Previn/LSO, Szell/Cleveland and Walter/Columbia recordings are still state-of-the-art.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by presdoug View Post
    Fritz Reiner and the CSO also did a landmark series of recordings of Richard Strauss's Tone Poems in the 1950s-recordings that are up there with anything current and digital.
    I recently bought the Analog Productions reissue of Fritz Reiner and the CSO performing Scheherazade.

    Very natural sounding. Very transparent and dynamic. Amazing how great that 1961 technology was!
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Indeed. If you can overlook a modicum of tape hiss -- and who can't? -- many of the Ormandy/Philadelphia, Previn/LSO, Szell/Cleveland and Walter/Columbia recordings are still state-of-the-art.
    So true. It is a blessing that some of the great maestros went through "Indian Summer" periods like you have pointed at that were very well recorded. Also worth mentioning are the EMI recordings of Carl Schuricht and Otto Klemperer from the early 1960s.
    "and what music unites, man should not take apart"-Helmut Koellen

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by simon moon View Post
    I recently bought the Analog Productions reissue of Fritz Reiner and the CSO performing Scheherazade.

    Very natural sounding. Very transparent and dynamic. Amazing how great that 1961 technology was!
    Lovely recording. Also great is the Reiner/CSO Debussy La Mer, and Beethoven Symphony 9.
    "and what music unites, man should not take apart"-Helmut Koellen

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