John Wetton as a bass player

[arise_shine]

In 1972. His chops were gone after Bruford left UK, coincidentally or not. Couldn't even hear him on the first Asia album.

I can hear him just fine. His parts are very simple, but they're certainly audible.

[gearHed289]

Wetton is pretty high on my list of bass players. MONSTER tone, decent chops, great improv skills. And I love his singing. He's sounding better than ever vocally these days. Too bad about the carpal tunnel. He's been playing with a pick taped to his his thumb for several years now, and the tone is gone.

Couldn't even hear him on the first Asia album.

I don't get this. I can hear the bass perfectly fine on that record, and it sounds great.

No he is not a fusiontechnician (Berlin, etc.) or a can play-all-styles like Tony Levin

I agree, and that's just fine with me too. I refer to players like him as "stylists". You don't have to have monster chops, or be the "do it all" guy to achieve greatness and make an impact.

hardly.There were plenty of players that had already made the electric bass a melodic and\or lead instrument before Jaco.

Agreed.

It seems you are suffering from a case of "welcome to my ignore list".

+1. Even post-Beatles, Paul did great stuff. Wings Over America was a virtual bass lesson on vinyl. His sense of rhythm is great (bouncy, as someone said), and his lines were adventurous and melodic.

[Genital Giant]

Squire had a bright, forward sound with his Rik and Rotosounds, but his lines were more along the lines of traditional bassplaying (unless he was playing The Fish).

Ummmm, no. There was nothing traditional about any of Squire's basslines. They are pretty unique. His style is completely his own.

[Genital Giant]

My initial post was meant to get a discussion started...I love Wetton and the way he worked rhythmically with Bruford...I only pick apart his pentatonic approach to free form playing (a sign of the times to a degree)...His tone kills, he has great touch, I just wish he was a bit more aware of the harmonic choices when improvising.

"His pentatonic approach to free form playing???" Wetton did NOT do this. Listen to a bunch of Crimson improvs, the guy is all over the place, whole-tone scales, octotonic scales, traditional modal scales, complete atonality. The works.

[Trane]

I think he rose to the Crimson challenge (and succeeeded), but failed to do so in the next projects he worked for. I was never all that impressed with him in Heep, UK and Asia.... His previous works in Mogul Thrash was fine, but I don't think he was allowed much space to expand in Family.

But I prefer him 1000X better as a bassist than as a vocalist.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I don't think he was allowed much space to expand in Family.

I sincerely disagree. His input on the last few tracks of Bandstand form the very pinnacle of his playing in the "song format" and contribute essentially to the overall dynamic of these tunes. Whether he was "given musch space" may be a different question of course, but then again Family were never a unit working with many loose ends (although they obviously had their jammy parts).

[A. Scherze]

In the mid 60's Paul was the first bass player I ever heard that was doing something more interesting than just following the chord changes in time with the bass drum. He was the 1st I ever heard play the bass as a melodic instrument playing melodies independent from what the guitar was doing.

James Jamerson.

[Adm.Kirk]

Actually, in a way he gets MORE credit than he deserves as it's implied he played all of the bass lines on RS albums, which is actually far from the truth. Once they began using multitrack desks Keith Richards (and, on occasion, Mick Taylor) played a lot of the bass on studio albums. Exactly which songs is now easy to know with all the online sources. ("Let's Spend The Night Together" [KR], "Sympathy For The Devil" [KR], "Street Fighting Man" [KR], "Jumpin' Jack Flash" [KR], "Tumbling Dice" [MT], most of side 1 of "Goat's Head Soup" [both] etc.)

Ronnie Wood played bass on Emotional Rescue as well. Jumping Jack Flash is Wyman though. It was his riff to begin with. Take a listen to great line Wyman comes up with on Start Me Up or the entire Hampton show from the 81 tour. Many times Wyman was simply not at the session. Keith played a lot of bass because he was always in the studio. He never left. So, yeah, Wyman isn't playing bass on every track but that does not take away from his talent.

Bill

[calyx]

Jumping Jack Flash is Wyman though. It was his riff to begin with.

You may well be right, but then Wikipedia is wrong - it credits Richards with the bass and Wyman with Hammond organ. It also says the *guitar* riff was claimed by Wyman to be his, not the bass line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Jack_Flash

An interview with Keith Richards confirms this :

Q: People aren't always aware of your bass-playing contributions to the Stones. But you played bass on "Jumping Jack Flash"...

KR : Yeah. "Sympathy for the Devil." "Live with Me." I do like playing bass. Still do.

(source : http://www.guitarworld.com/archive-r...music?page=0,5 )

[wideopenears]

hardly.There were plenty of players that had already made the electric bass a melodic and\or lead instrument before Jaco.He had more chops than many that came before him that's all.

That's not "all," at all. He was an amazing composer and arranger, and a showman, as well. He also had a very unique sense of the groove, one that has proven influential even amongst those not copping his sound.

I don't disagree that there were guys before him who used the electric bass melodically, though. Steve Swallow and Monk Montgomery, even, on electric bass, and of course Stanley and Alphonso. And McCartney was definitely an innovator. Entwistle, too. Squire furthered things, as well--he clearly praises Entwistle as an influence, by the way. Colin Hodgkinson. And who can forgot Jack Bruce, who brought improv and an "up-front" presence to the bass guitar as well.

As for Wetton--he was, I think, amazing back in the day of Family and Crimson. I saw Asia's first tour, though, and was disappointed. His stuff with UK is not terribly interesting, either, frankly. But he brought something funky, and forward, to KC. And check out the bass playing on Family's tune "Burlesque"--that shit is NASTEEEEE!

Oh, and yes, every single electric bassist owes a huge debt to Jamerson.

[Trane]

Originally Posted by calyx

Actually, in a way he gets MORE credit than he deserves as it's implied he played all of the bass lines on RS albums, which is actually far from the truth. Once they began using multitrack desks Keith Richards (and, on occasion, Mick Taylor) played a lot of the bass on studio albums. Exactly which songs is now easy to know with all the online sources. ("Let's Spend The Night Together" [KR], "Sympathy For The Devil" [KR], "Street Fighting Man" [KR], "Jumpin' Jack Flash" [KR], "Tumbling Dice" [MT], most of side 1 of "Goat's Head Soup" [both] etc.)

Ronnie Wood played bass on Emotional Rescue as well. Jumping Jack Flash is Wyman though. It was his riff to begin with. Take a listen to great line Wyman comes up with on Start Me Up or the entire Hampton show from the 81 tour. Many times Wyman was simply not at the session. Keith played a lot of bass because he was always in the studio. He never left. So, yeah, Wyman isn't playing bass on every track but that does not take away from his talent.

Bill

wow... never knew all of this (or never paid attention to it)... I can imagine how Wyman leaving The Stones was probably much more complicated than it appeared (royalties & such)
I had heard that Wyman was the odd one out in TRS (mostly in for the groupies), but had no idea that he wasn't playing on studio tracks.

[calyx]

but had no idea that [Wyman] wasn't playing on studio tracks.

Let's be clear - I meant SOME studio tracks (perhaps the way I phrased it suggested it happened more than it did), not all of them. And again, in some cases (like "Jumpin' Jack Flash") he WAS on the songs, just not playing bass (in this case Hammond organ).

Check the Wikipedia pages for the albums and other sources to get a notion of exactly which songs.

I'll leave real RS specialists to judge to what extent this diminishes his contribution to the Stones' oeuvre.

[Trane]

Let's be clear -

I'll leave real RS specialists to judge to what extent this diminishes his contribution to the Stones' oeuvre.

I was addressing Kirk/Bill and his reaction to you at least as much as you yourself... But i'll check when I got time

[Watanabe]

That's not "all," at all. He was an amazing composer and arranger, and a showman, as well. He also had a very unique sense of the groove, one that has proven influential even amongst those not copping his sound.

I don't disagree that there were guys before him who used the electric bass melodically, though. Steve Swallow and Monk Montgomery, even, on electric bass, and of course Stanley and Alphonso. And McCartney was definitely an innovator. Entwistle, too. Squire furthered things, as well--he clearly praises Entwistle as an influence, by the way. Colin Hodgkinson. And who can forgot Jack Bruce, who brought improv and an "up-front" presence to the bass guitar as well.

As for Wetton--he was, I think, amazing back in the day of Family and Crimson. I saw Asia's first tour, though, and was disappointed. His stuff with UK is not terribly interesting, either, frankly. But he brought something funky, and forward, to KC. And check out the bass playing on Family's tune "Burlesque"--that shit is NASTEEEEE!

Oh, and yes, every single electric bassist owes a huge debt to Jamerson.

His composing, arranging etc were within the realm of what i meant when i said chops.I'm well aware of what Jaco brought to the table.

[Adm.Kirk]

You may well be right, but then Wikipedia is wrong - it credits Richards with the bass and Wyman with Hammond organ. It also says the *guitar* riff was claimed by Wyman to be his, not the bass line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpin%27_Jack_Flash

An interview with Keith Richards confirms this :

Q: People aren't always aware of your bass-playing contributions to the Stones. But you played bass on "Jumping Jack Flash"...

KR : Yeah. "Sympathy for the Devil." "Live with Me." I do like playing bass. Still do.

(source : http://www.guitarworld.com/archive-r...music?page=0,5 )

I stand corrected! What I didn't realize was that Wyman played the riff, but on Hammond not on bass. Thanks for getting me straight on that! Still, I think Wyman is a great bass player.

Bill

[Rufus]

Ummmm, no. There was nothing traditional about any of Squire's basslines. They are pretty unique. His style is completely his own.

^^^^^ABSOLUTELY!!!!

[gallen1964]

Slightly off topic but just reading Mick Karns autobiog and he's talking about a Jeff Beck rehearsal he's asked to play in but can't work with Simon Phillips who keeps telling him to follow the (double) bass drums. Mick completely bemused byPhillips and just sort of walks out. Kind of amusing, one busy fusion monster , the other quixotic , arty minimalist!!

[Zeuhlmate]

Simon Phillips is a technical wonder, but musically mr. boring perfect.

[Adm.Kirk]

I'd say the same thing about Simon Phillips as well. I liked him better with Beck than with The Who though.

Bill

[sphinx]

If you read Mick Karn's Innerviews interview from 1996, he also had substantial problems with Terry Bozzio during the making of Polytown, so maybe it's also a general 'muso vs. art scene' (I know that's a very broad phrasing) mentality conflict.

[Larry Canary]

Of course we all have our favorites, but for me, Wetton was the premier bass player of the 70's, the top of the food chain. His playing was powerful but also fluid. His best stuff obviously was with Crimson, but he also was great with Roxy Music, as evidenced in "Out of the Blue."

[TheH]

Something on the General relevance of bass players

bassplayer.jpg

double click the Picture!

[Dave (in MA)]

If you read Mick Karn's Innerviews interview from 1996, he also had substantial problems with Terry Bozzio during the making of Polytown, so maybe it's also a general 'muso vs. art scene' (I know that's a very broad phrasing) mentality conflict.

He was also intimidated by the prospect of working with Bruford and Isham in the Cloud About Mercury band and only agreed to go to the rehearsals to get Torn to quit bugging him.

[Trane]

Something on the General relevance of bass players

bassplayer.jpg

double click the Picture!

I guess Darwin awards woinners don't always end up dead...

[Jeremy Bender]

he also was great with Roxy Music, as evidenced in "Out of the Blue"

Nice! I haven't listened to Roxy Music in ages, I played the first four albums a lot back in the day, time to give them another spin.