King Crimson 1973-74

[progfan915]

Hi, I have a question for die-hard KC fans of this era. Out of curiosity I've been reading the posts about the new Starless box, which then led me to read older posts about the Road to Red box. I came to the conclusion that these boxes would be too much for me, but here's my question: I have the Great Deceiver box set, but do not have either USA or The Night Watch. Are either of these essential? What do they have that the Great Deceiver does not?

Also, are any of the official bootlegs from this era essential? Are they only available as downloads (excluding the new box set)?

thanks!

[Phlakaton]

The Night Watch is just a fantastic show and those 73 shows seem to resonate more with my ears too. Plus - a lot of material is on SABB unedited from this one. If you dont want to hear the numerous versions of a lot of songs (an improvs) like some of us - the GD box should be good for most.

[Painter]

In the '80s, USA was in constant rotation on my Walkman . IMHO, because for decades it was my ONLY recording of Wetton-era live Crim, I feel that USA is definitive. The improv Asbury Park is still my fave song of Lark's era Crim and an unparalleled example of Crimson's virtuosity and improv chops. I also compare all other versions of Lament, LTIA 2, Exiles and Easy Money to these. The middle section of Lament is furious, the improve solo section of Easy Money is easily one of the most searing, most inspired...

Wetton's bass is particularly powerful in this recording. The great thing about Lark's era live recordings is that no song is played the same way twice. Each version is unique.

I could go on, but whether or not you deem them "essential" is up to your level of interest in Crimson. I personally am infatuated with Crimson so for me, they are essential.

[Spiral]

I have the Great Deceiver box set, but do not have either USA or The Night Watch. Are either of these essential? What do they have that the Great Deceiver does not?

Well now. There's no simple answer here. I say Night Watch is essential but USA may or may not be, depending on which edition you're talking about.

TNW is a hell of a performance that shows their chemistry in sizzling form, both for free improv and the way they play the written material. It's a great illustration of what this lineup was all about. It's included in the new Starless box and some of this show was first included on Starless & Bible Black, but there's no overlap with TGD at all.

USA was somewhat bastardized. The original release and 30th Anniversary edition CD have a couple tracks edited and/or with studio overdubs that were added later. I for one prefer to hear everything the way it was played, so that version isn't quite essential. It was taken mostly from a single '74 show (Asbury Park, NJ) with the "Schizoid Man" taken from Providence, RI a couple nights later. That's the same 21CSM that's on TGD, but otherwise there's no overlap at all.

Meanwhile, as if that wasn't confusing enough, the new 40th Anniversary edition of USA simply contains the entire Asbury Park show as-is without the edits and overdubs. That one can be considered essential. I could nitpick over which shows from this stretch are the best, but this one is right up there.

[Facelift]

Being as objective as I can, it would be very hard to say that any of these would really be *essential* to a non die-hard, because there's going to be overlap in the songs (though not the performances). This wouldn't just be true of KC, but of any band that has lots of live recordings available from a particular era (Soft Machine has a lot of '70-'72 live stuff available, for example, and just about all of Gentle Giant's live stuff is from between '74 and '76).

However, you should take note that most people who *are* really into King Crimson do pretty much consider all of these to be essential.\

If you already have Great Deceiver and really like it, I highly doubt you'd ever regret buying one of those other titles.

[Zeuhlmate]

I have all 3 mentioned albums.

Asbury Park & Larks tunges II on USA are 'essential'
The Nightwatch have versions of tracks I like better than those on GD - like Easy Money . . .

[Spiral]

Are they only available as downloads (excluding the new box set)?

There are a few out on hardcopy:

Zurich '73 (partly on TGD)
Heidelberg '74
Kassel '74
Mainz '74
Toronto (partly on TGD)
New York City '74

There's also a double-disc package that bundles Mainz together with Asbury Park.

To somewhat oversimplify you could say the 1973 shows are looser with more free experimentation in the improvs, while by '74 things are more focused and powerful (in terms of performance and sheer decibels). Facelift is right--the Deceiver box already gives a good idea of what level of quality to expect from the others.

[jeffo621]

If you aren't too keen in the download route, the ones that Spiral listed cover the band really well. The Zurich show from Nov 73 may be my favorite performance from this lineup (and I have pretty much everything that's been released).

Some personal favorite downloads (chronological):
- Paris, April 1973. Never mind the crappy sound quality, the band is still improvising a lot, including one in which they start dabbling in the Sailor's Tale theme. Essential because it is so far the only release on the band's initial post-Muir stretch
- Berkeley, June 1973. A bit bootleggy sound quality, but a storming set. Fripp teases a little bit of Mars in LTiA, and killer versions of all of their "standards". Also worth mentioning that Fripp's announcement to the audience is sheer brilliance
- Altanta, June 1973. May be the definitive live version of LTiA1, and pretty decent sound
- Glasgow, October 1973. Multitrack recording. A lot was used for TGD, but you are given a pristine version of the extended version of Fracture.
- Any of the "blue tapes" - the late March/early April 1974 recordings from their European tour

If you end up addicted to these recordings, it's actually worth picking up some of the not-so-great ones as well. For instance, the one from Columbus (April 1974) is interesting because Cross' violin dies in the middle of Night Watch and Wetton covers it on bass, then Fripp buys the roadies some time by doing some "audience research" and making an ELP joke. There are also two mediocre performances from June '74 (Milwaukee and Quebec) where the band is clearly struggling to get through the set, and it's interesting to hear Wetton flub verses on Easy Money, an improv (from Quebec) that doesn't really go anywhere, cues being missed, etc

~Jeff

[Akustika]

if you're looking for the best sound quality, I'd say it's The Night Watch.

[Dave (in MA)]

Imagine someone who moves from non-diehard to diehard status once the Larks/Red/Starless boxes have gone OOP.

[JKL2000]

Imagine someone who moves from non-diehard to diehard status once the Larks/Red/Starless boxes have gone OOP.

They can buy them for $2000 each on eBay or Amazon probably.

[progfan915]

Imagine someone who moves from non-diehard to diehard status once the Larks/Red/Starless boxes have gone OOP.

Yes, I can easily see that happening! Lately I've been on a TGD kick, and am looking to expand....

[timmy]

My $.02…

As others have mentioned, get Night Watch. It's f'ing brilliant.

As for USA, I'd recommend just buying the Asbury Park show from DGM as FLAC. It's $12.99. If you want to go the completist route then you could purchase the USA 40th edition for more and get all of the edited versions, too.
http://www.dgmlive.com/archive.htm?artist=5&show=419

[Facelift]

Imagine someone who moves from non-diehard to diehard status once the Larks/Red/Starless boxes have gone OOP.

Aren't the shows all available individually on DGM?

[Paulrus]

My $.02…

As others have mentioned, get Night Watch. It's f'ing brilliant.

As for USA, I'd recommend just buying the Asbury Park show from DGM as FLAC. It's $12.99. If you want to go the completist route then you could purchase the USA 40th edition for more and get all of the edited versions, too.
http://www.dgmlive.com/archive.htm?artist=5&show=419

This is pretty much my stance. I do have a soft spot for USA since, like for many others, it was all we had (officially) from that era until the Great Deceiver box appeared. Plus, to me the Jobson overdubs make those versions somewhat definitive. And as a single album it's a more succinct demonstration of the mightiness of mid 70s Crim so can be useful when trying to convert the unwashed.

[WytchCrypt]

I'd go along with the others who have said USA & The NightWatch are both essential, especially if you love TGD and are looking for more. Sounds like you're about to transition from the type of Crimso fan who just wants to hear "a live version" of the songs to the type that wants to hear "several live versions" and enjoy the differences between them. That's the great thing about Crimso '73/'74, they rarely played a song the exact same way night after night and there was always room for encouraged improvisation within the song framework. For example, my fave song of all time is Exiles and between the studio version, USA, The Road to Red, my old vinyl bootlegs, The Great Deceiver, and the King Crimson Collectors Club albums I must have at least 40 versions and I swear they never played it the same way twice. So, should you start buying other live Crimson beyond TGD? My advice...Don't fight it, resistance is pointless

[Dave (in MA)]

Aren't the shows all available individually on DGM?

If memory serves, there are at least a half dozen shows that were never available.

[jkelman]

Aren't the shows all available individually on DGM?

Not all of them. Four, on Starless, for example, are appearing for the first time ever. They might eventually make them available as downloads, but that's one of the carrots for each box: content that is not available anywhere else

Plus, of course, if you want high res and/or surround mixes, you'll get 'em nowhere else.

[jeffo621]

Aren't the shows all available individually on DGM?

Nope, or at least not yet.

From LTiA, at least two of the shows (12/1 and 12/15, you could also count the Rainbow show that they give you a download code to but the sound quality is abyssmal) aren't available

From Road to Red (which I have yet to purchase), I believe there are four shows that aren't available anywhere. I don't believe that any of them are complete sets. If they are, they are "opening act" length sets and thus don't have as much to offer as, say, the Providence or Pittsburgh sets

From Starless, I believe there are six of the "Blue Tapes" that have not been released yet, which makes me want to get that as soon as I can come up with the money since all of the other ones that are available are scorching.

I'm still hoping we might see a "Spring '73" box of some sort, but I have my doubts. The boots I have heard from that period all sound like crap, but there are some amazing improvs - including a few in which Fracture is clearly in development. I unfortunately (I guess) deleted all of my torrents once KC went onto the NAB list at Dime a few years back, so I can't even say that I have any of those left.

[Enid]

It's interesting how the 2 tracks "Starless and Bible Black" and "Fracture" were actual live recordings from the Amsterdam show in 73' and later re-mixed for the Starless and Bible Black album. Not many Crimheads in 74' were aware of the fact that these particular recordings were drawn from the Amsterdam concert. This is precisely what makes "Nightwatch" special. Robert Fripp often makes reference to the show being the best performance of that particular unit. U.S.A. was cheap to me upon the first week of it's release on LP...although I still greatly enjoyed it based on the reality that we had nothing else at the time. I wanted to hear the stripped down version which didn't feature the Eddie Jobson overdubs and that was released through the "Collectors Club". It was much more interesting as an overall performance.

[Crystal Plumage]

Why not buy Night Watch and The Collectable King Crimson pt. 1? Than, if you're curious enough you might want to check out the original USA with overdubs by Mr. Jobson. Probably cheap as hell by now.

[Trane]

I'd go along with the others who have said USA & The NightWatch are both essential, especially if you love TGD and are looking for more.

yup, I got all three... it's all I need live from the Wetton-era KC

[tallliman]

I'll second the votes for the Scottish 73 show.

[progfan915]

Why not buy Night Watch and The Collectable King Crimson pt. 1? Than, if you're curious enough you might want to check out the original USA with overdubs by Mr. Jobson. Probably cheap as hell by now.

Yes I think after reading all the posts here I might do that; the Night Watch and the collectible KC part 1...

Or I might just download the Asbury show tonight if I get impatient...

Why do I sense that I might just get the Starless set and have it all? . Overkill for sure (for me personally) but it's a great looking box...

[Hobo Chang Ba]

The Night Watch is essential.

Instead of USA I prefer the Asbury Park release (that appears on The Collectable King Crimson Vol 1).