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Thread: The Science Group "Spoors"

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    Did you guys rehearse live or do everything remotely? This band should tour!! A World Tour!! Cruise Ships!! Casinos!! Strip Clubs!! Penn Station next to the men's room and Starbucks!!

    I hope Mike shows up because I would really like to hear his 3 shillings and opinions of this album.
    Your wish is my command, oh chalk-meister. My 3 shillings are that Spoors was one of the most difficult albums to play, nay, to comprehend, that I've recorded. I don't really know how the rest was rehearsed or recorded, but I tracked all my parts at home, some 5,000 miles from the other guys, using some reference tracks that Bob sent me, and Stevan's guitar charts. It was completely 'remote'. Bob instructed me to not use 'fuzz' sounds, and to go for sort of straight ahead mostly clean, slightly dirty tones. I was under the assumption that he would add effects and maybe re-amp as he needed when mixing, so I tried to avoid sonically prejudicing the tones, so to speak...with the exception, I think, of a little ring modulation in one or two improv spots. Thus I was kind of surprised when I heard the finished mix, because it seemed to me that Bob hardly altered my tones at all!

    Meanwhile, regarding the music, I think it really reveals Stevan's extensive training and orientation as a "classical", or serious art music composer, although with some forays into other almost "pop", "ethnic" and even children's music (or perhaps parodies there of). But it also demonstrates his mastery of sampling and creating unusual sonic environments, as well as amazing improvisations. At times the writing is really astonishing and always very impressive technically. But my favorite parts or tracks are some of the more 'bitchin' almost prog rock-y ones, such as Timelines 6 and 2, Tractates and most especially the composed parts of Urban Music, which is a classic, imho. But there are wonderful moments and passages strewn throughout the record.

    Someone (was it Frank?) asked why doesn't that band tour. Truthfully, there are some sections on there that I'm not sure could be executed live! It'd be a huge challenge....and then only a handful of 'strange persons' (most of whom are represented on this thread!) would want to see such a band.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    Oh man - you shouldn't have 'fessed up! But those fills and the drum treatment in Timeline 6 are really killer. Was it your call or Cutlers to treat the drums with the FX?

    Did you guys rehearse live or do everything remotely? This band should tour!! A World Tour!! Cruise Ships!! Casinos!! Strip Clubs!! Penn Station next to the men's room and Starbucks!!

    I hope Mike shows up because I would really like to hear his 3 shillings and opinions of this album.
    It's hard to remember but Chris probably played some fills and made some noises which I later messed about with. Effects for sure would have been me later because we wanted to spend the recording time getting good takes rather than looking for funny sounds. I guarantee those funny fills were my idea because I felt the piece was too "flat" and needed things to differentiate the changes to other sections.

    As for a tour: we were actually offered a gig at a festival many years ago, maybe even before Spoors (do you remember, Mike??) but I wouldn't do it because there would have been only one or two days of rehearsal. Some others in the group were willing, I thought they must be joking.

    As for how Stevan comes up with this stuff - you'd have to ask him! His self just works like that. He sent us demos which I learned the bass parts from. As I always do, once I had it memorized I would make the parts more of my own or come up with something else completely, he always loved it when someone came up with something he hadn't thought of, especially when it made things more rock-ey or poppy.

    We didn't play together. Stevan did most of the keyboard parts at his home, some organ was recorded here (played by me). I recorded my bass parts before Chris came here to do the drums because I know he is happier when there is a solid bass to play along with. So I took my time and had a lot of fun with the bass.

    Mike did his parts at home, recorded direct, I later ran them through amps and mic'ed them, which sortof works, not as nice as actually doing it but better than the direct tone.

    Whereas the first album wasn't really sure where it was going, Spoors was all very painless and went amazingly smoothly.

    By the way:
    Has anyone heard Stevan's "Cold Peace Counterpoints"? I played drums, bass and guitar on several pieces, including the most ridiculous guitar part I have ever learned! (Electric Guitar Ostinato) It was a piece originally written for a violin player, but he/she didn't like it so Stevan said to me "I dare you to learn this..." so how could I refuse that!? I thought "alright, you asked for it, we'll make this into a rock song
    Last edited by B D; 10-30-2014 at 02:26 AM.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by MJ-Plagued View Post
    Your wish is my command, oh chalk-meister. My 3 shillings are that Spoors was one of the most difficult albums to play, nay, to comprehend, that I've recorded..
    I would have to concur, in fact now that years have passed, when I listen to it, it's like an album I've never heard before! I usually retain the parts in my head or can quickly recussitate old parts that I've played from some little-used clump of brain cells or wherever musical parts are stored, but with this album it's all become new again and I'm as lost as any first-time listener. That's kind of neat actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by MJ-Plagued View Post
    because it seemed to me that Bob hardly altered my tones at all!
    Should I have? You know I like "natural" tones

  4. #29
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    Amazing thread.

    I agree with Mike that Urban Music is a classic. There is a chorus that is repeated in the tune (is it the 11/4 part? I have to pull the cd off the shelf to listen to it again) in which C. Cutler plays astonishingly in a different measure, or using slower triplets, I guess, to such an effect that it always brings a smile to my face. I wonder if it was originally composed as is or if this is CC's contribution to the tune's arrangement. In any case, I have to listen to it again very, very soon.

    By the way, I'm now spinning 5UU's Hunger's Teeth and wondering if the bass guitar parts are played with a plectrum or with the fingers. Would you mind to chime in, Mr. BD?

    On a side note, it seems I will need to listen to Stevan's "Cold Peace Counterpoints"...

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Conti View Post
    Amazing thread.

    I agree with Mike that Urban Music is a classic. There is a chorus that is repeated in the tune (is it the 11/4 part? I have to pull the cd off the shelf to listen to it again) in which C. Cutler plays astonishingly in a different measure, or using slower triplets, I guess, to such an effect that it always brings a smile to my face. I wonder if it was originally composed as is or if this is CC's contribution to the tune's arrangement. In any case, I have to listen to it again very, very soon.

    By the way, I'm now spinning 5UU's Hunger's Teeth and wondering if the bass guitar parts are played with a plectrum or with the fingers. Would you mind to chime in, Mr. BD?

    On a side note, it seems I will need to listen to Stevan's "Cold Peace Counterpoints"...
    r

    I will have to listen to Urban Music, then I might remember if Chris came up with the part you mention or if Stevan suggested it. What you descibe sounds like the kind of thing Chris would come up with though. As for Hunger's Teeth bass plectrum or fingers - could be either as I play with a plectrum sometimes and other times pluck with the side of my thumb. If you are thinking of a particular bass part, let me know and I will be able tell you.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by B D View Post
    r

    I will have to listen to Urban Music, then I might remember if Chris came up with the part you mention or if Stevan suggested it. What you descibe sounds like the kind of thing Chris would come up with though. As for Hunger's Teeth bass plectrum or fingers - could be either as I play with a plectrum sometimes and other times pluck with the side of my thumb. If you are thinking of a particular bass part, let me know and I will be able tell you.
    Thanks for the reply. Regarding Hunger's Teeth, I was thinking mostly about the bass parts in the first track, "Well... no chickenshit". It sounds like a plectrum to my ears... Was it your Rickenbaker, by the way?

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Conti View Post
    Thanks for the reply. Regarding Hunger's Teeth, I was thinking mostly about the bass parts in the first track, "Well... no chickenshit". It sounds like a plectrum to my ears... Was it your Rickenbaker, by the way?
    Yes that was with a plectrum. And it's my Rickenbacker.

  8. #33
    Not to derail the thread, but since Frank and one or two others were commenting on bass tones, here are the two (thus far pretty obscure) AA Kismet albums I mentioned, there are some pretty neat bass tones, perhaps especially on "What's The Use Of Crying...":
    https://bdstudio.bandcamp.com/

  9. #34
    Member Phlakaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B D View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but since Frank and one or two others were commenting on bass tones, here are the two (thus far pretty obscure) AA Kismet albums I mentioned, there are some pretty neat bass tones, perhaps especially on "What's The Use Of Crying...":
    https://bdstudio.bandcamp.com/
    "What's The Use Of Crying..." sounds pretty cool. Might have to pick that up! Anything with Dave K in it even if its only two tracks - I'm there. You're right... the bass is friggin great!

  10. #35
    Recently Resurrected zombywoof's Avatar
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    I love the way this album takes your typical pop cliches, plays them forward, plays them backward, warps them, and turns them on their head. Great album!!

  11. #36
    Just listened to Timeline 6 on YouTube. There's not enough going on in this 2 an a half minute ditty!

  12. #37
    I really like both this and Mere Coincidence. I'd say I like them both about equally.

    Thanks for the great stuff!

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by B D View Post
    Yes that was with a plectrum. And it's my Rickenbacker.
    Thanks, mister!

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Conti View Post
    Thanks, mister!
    I enjoy talking about bass! I can tell you some other thrilling details about the bass on that particular song. In the middle bit, where it's just the bass and drums and James Grigsby's guitar solo, here's how I got that hideous bass tone.

    I plugged the bass into a volume pedal and sent the direct output (sometimes called the “tuner” output) to a Korg MS20 synthesizer's frequency-to-voltage input. The oscillators (theoretically) track the notes, but half the time it spits out the most unexpected notes and sounds. That's what I love about it! (that's also how I made the sound for the melody after “don't come to me for squat”.)

    The MS20 was plugged into one channel of my Kustom 250 amp. The other output from the volume pedal was plugged into my equally antediluvian Mutron III voltage controlled filter, and that into the other channel of the Kustom. Turn both channels of the Kustom up good and loud to make the components and speakers work really hard, play in a manner which could not be described as gentle, stand near the amp so you can get some feedback, and that's the sound.

    You use the two channels of the amp and/or the volume pedal to blend the two sounds together.

    You can hear a similar bass sound in the instrumental sections of “Comeuppance” on Crisis in Clay, and lots of my bass parts from the mid 80's - late 90's years. I haven't used the MS20 much in that way in recent years, feeling I'd done enough of that, though I still use it for sounds and even play it sometimes in the "usual" way (using the keys

    BD
    www.bdrak.com

  15. #40
    chalkpie
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    I like reading all of this detail - thanks for spilling the beans guys. How come this stuff wasn't in Rolling Stone when the album came out?

    I find it almost unbelieveable that you guys never really played together as tight and seriously insane this music is....now that's progress.

  16. #41
    chalkpie
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    Quote Originally Posted by B D View Post
    Not to derail the thread, but since Frank and one or two others were commenting on bass tones, here are the two (thus far pretty obscure) AA Kismet albums I mentioned, there are some pretty neat bass tones, perhaps especially on "What's The Use Of Crying...":
    https://bdstudio.bandcamp.com/
    How come I've never heard of this band??!! Spinning the 'Wolves' album right now and already loving it.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    I find it almost unbelieveable that you guys never really played together as tight and seriously insane this music is....now that's progress.
    Anyone who has worked with me can tell you I always prefer to get everyone together in the same room at the same time because I love that instantaneous feedback and excitement of throwing ideas around. In the case of Spoors it was completely impossible to get everyone in the same room at the same time, but maybe because of the nature of the music, it worked fine without us ever playing as a group. I don't have any complaints about it.

  18. #43
    chalkpie
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    Quote Originally Posted by B D View Post
    By the way:
    Has anyone heard Stevan's "Cold Peace Counterpoints"? I played drums, bass and guitar on several pieces, including the most ridiculous guitar part I have ever learned! (Electric Guitar Ostinato) It was a piece originally written for a violin player, but he/she didn't like it so Stevan said to me "I dare you to learn this..." so how could I refuse that!? I thought "alright, you asked for it, we'll make this into a rock song
    I own "Cold Peace" and "Repetitive Selective". I am definitely more familiar with the latter, so I will revisit the former. I'm not sure if Kerman told me this or if he wrote it somewhere, but I recall him saying something to the effect that "Repetitive Selective" makes "Spoors" sound either like The Eagles or The Bee Gees.

  19. #44
    Boo! walt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    I own "Cold Peace" and "Repetitive Selective"
    Same here. I have both cds lined up for a re-hearing.I'm looking forward to receipt of Ultima Armonia,a quartet "structured improv"(as per notes for this release) session with Stevan Tickmayer on piano, with sax, double bass and drums*.And i eagerly await Tickmayer's solo cd on Rec.


    *http://www.boriskovac.net/ultima_armonia.html
    Last edited by walt; 10-30-2014 at 03:15 PM.
    "please do not understand me too quickly"-andre gide

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    How come I've never heard of this band??!!
    We will have to chalk that up to one of those legion insoluable enigmas of our existence. Assuming, naturally, that we indeed "exist" (see: some physicist's commentary). However, I am pleased to note the expressions of apparent pleasure you have expressed upon the commencement of "spinning" of the Wolves album. I feel you may also experience sensations somewhat akin to the aforementioned upon your (let us presume) "spinning" of the Where's album.

    yr pal,
    BD

  21. #46
    Member Phlakaton's Avatar
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    Welp... time to turn on the appreciation tap -

    BD - and all of you guys (Dave K, James G, Chris C ... etc) - you've made some of my favorite music ever over the last 30 years. I can only say - "THANK YOU!" Only Zappa gets a bit more play than all the projects you've been a part of.

    Cheers sir! You are all invited to have food and beer at my house any day!

  22. #47
    chalkpie
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    Quote Originally Posted by B D View Post
    We will have to chalk that up to one of those legion insoluable enigmas of our existence. Assuming, naturally, that we indeed "exist" (see: some physicist's commentary). However, I am pleased to note the expressions of apparent pleasure you have expressed upon the commencement of "spinning" of the Wolves album. I feel you may also experience sensations somewhat akin to the aforementioned upon your (let us presume) "spinning" of the Where's album.

    yr pal,
    BD
    You're quite the astute businessman, eh my goode sir? There is no doubt that I shall be Kismeted Double 'A' - style in quite the near future. I do think we exist for sure - albeit we are all lost hares in a 1329 French bakery. I mean hairs. Nothing more, nothing less.

    BTW Mr Johnson - are you familiar with the Finnish composer Kalevi Aho? I think you would dig him big time, as I hear a bit of DSCH but a ton of other stuff too diverse to describe. Lots of symphonies - check him out. Not the craziest shit out there, but man what a voice.

  23. #48
    chalkpie
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    Bob and Mike - PS - check out PoiL! My new favorite band. This is a band that makes anybody's favorite band suck. Like the T-shirt says. Plus they're from France. Crazy and very interesting vocals.

    Here is the new album - I am addicted to these guys.

    http://poil.bandcamp.com/

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by B D View Post
    I enjoy talking about bass! I can tell you some other thrilling details about the bass on that particular song. In the middle bit, where it's just the bass and drums and James Grigsby's guitar solo, here's how I got that hideous bass tone.

    I plugged the bass into a volume pedal and sent the direct output (sometimes called the “tuner” output) to a Korg MS20 synthesizer's frequency-to-voltage input. The oscillators (theoretically) track the notes, but half the time it spits out the most unexpected notes and sounds. That's what I love about it! (that's also how I made the sound for the melody after “don't come to me for squat”.)

    The MS20 was plugged into one channel of my Kustom 250 amp. The other output from the volume pedal was plugged into my equally antediluvian Mutron III voltage controlled filter, and that into the other channel of the Kustom. Turn both channels of the Kustom up good and loud to make the components and speakers work really hard, play in a manner which could not be described as gentle, stand near the amp so you can get some feedback, and that's the sound.

    You use the two channels of the amp and/or the volume pedal to blend the two sounds together.

    BD
    www.bdrak.com
    Wow, that's what I'd call an ingenious trickery! I would never imagine that level of inventivity to get that bass tone. As a bass player myself (well, sort of, I have actually given up semi-professional playing to become an academic), I had very limited studio resources when recording my own material. Also, I have never attained that level of mastery on studio to play with effects to such an extent. As a consequence, I ended up recording my Fender Jazz bass almost direct. It surely sounded great because the instrument is very good, but of course it didn't growl or bark or whatever.

    In any case, it's a lesson to read how you'd get you bass tone on that track, which is one of my favorites in the 5UU's canon.

    Please give us more :-)

  25. #50
    Member Phlakaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chalkpie View Post
    Bob and Mike - PS - check out PoiL! My new favorite band. This is a band that makes anybody's favorite band suck. Like the T-shirt says. Plus they're from France. Crazy and very interesting vocals.

    Here is the new album - I am addicted to these guys.

    http://poil.bandcamp.com/
    Thats some thick crazy stuff man. I dig it a lot. I know what is going into my ears today!

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