Maybe a dumb one... but I've been dying to ask someone.... Re: Genesis ATTWT

[Paulrus]

my point wasn't that the whole album was an attempt at being radio friendly but that FYFM was a harbinger of things to come

I don't know. I agree with the contention that even in Genesis' earlier days at least Mike and Tony were ALWAYS interested in being successful pop writers. It seems like the band always made time for more accessible material ("More Fool Me", "I Know What I Like", "Your Own Special Way", etc.) To me these songs were both an outlet as well as a gambit to see if that side of their writing could ever gain any traction. Once "Follow You Follow Me" was a success it just opened that door a little more.

[Digital_Man]

I have seen this described as the first neo prog album. I think it's a contender. I also think the band Saga is a contender though. However, Saga's first album came out in June of 78 and ATTWT was released in March of 78(Apr. in the UK)so ATTWT beats it in terms of chronology. I have never heard the ep spot the pigeon that Genesis put out before ATTWT though. That one might be a contender also. The thing with ATTWT is that it is not typically considered neo prog since the whole neo prog movement was more influenced by the earlier Genesis(pre Steve Hackett). It just so happens that the neo sound has lots of similarities to what Genesis were doing on ATTWT and probably the same thing with Saga(who also technically predate neo). Regardless, ATTWT is imo the most under rated Genesis album. I even place it above Duke(but not by a whole lot).

[bob_32_116]

The only track on the album that I consider slightly weak is Scenes From a Night's Dream, though even that one is rescued by the lyrics, which while not brilliant are good for a chuckle.

Best tracks (IMO):

Down and Out
Undertow
Burning Rope
The Lady Lies

but all of them have something to offer.

[Digital_Man]

I remember a thread on this album on here a couple of years ago or so and the overwhelming response for weakest track seemed to be "ballad of big." For me the weakest track is probably "follow you follow me" but only because I've heard it so many times and it's a bit played out for me.

[Rufus]

Say it ain't so Joe is a real turkey, the others are just so so!!!

[bob_32_116]

I think "Joe" is fine. I like the way the song slow and contemplative to busy and animated, and back again.

The more I read this thread, the more I realise I do really like this album. There is something about the atmosphere of the songs, a very late-autumn feeling of sadness and loss.

[WytchCrypt]

I think "Joe" is fine. I like the way the song slow and contemplative to busy and animated, and back again.

The more I read this thread, the more I realise I do really like this album. There is something about the atmosphere of the songs, a very late-autumn feeling of sadness and loss.

It does have some really cool moments which outweigh the turkeys for me. Anyone else also think this verse from Down and Out were kind of a shot at the recently departed Hackett?

I don't want to beat about the bush
but none of us are getting any younger.
There's people out there who could take your place.
A more commercial view! A fresher face!

[Halmyre]

I don't like "Snowman" (twee), "Scenes From A Night's Dream" (twee) or "The Lady Lies" (piss-poor attempt at a prog-rock epic). "Undertow" is a bit "Afterglow Part 2" (although none the worse for that). "Ballad of Big" is the obligatory 'humorous' number like "Robbery Assault and Battery" and "All in a Mouse's Night".

[gingernut]

All this talk (not just in this thread or on this site) of what is neo or symphonic gets rather tiresome. IQ are often touted as the definitive neo band, but they have output more genuine prog music than Genesis have IMHO. If Road of Bones, Frequency and others is neo, then Genesis', ATTWT, W&W, ATOTT, Lamb and even SEBTP are more neo. Is Subterranea really simpler and somehow less of an effort that The Lamb? After all, Subbie starts with an instrumental/orchestral overture, the Lamb starts with a rather mundane pop song. Enjoy them all for what they are.

No offence intended for anyone.

[mx20]

I don't like "Snowman" (twee), "Scenes From A Night's Dream" (twee) or "The Lady Lies" (piss-poor attempt at a prog-rock epic). "Undertow" is a bit "Afterglow Part 2" (although none the worse for that). "Ballad of Big" is the obligatory 'humorous' number like "Robbery Assault and Battery" and "All in a Mouse's Night".

I actually kinda agree with your assessments, but disagree with your concussions! The band were almost certainly headed for self-parody around this period (I remember Rutherford saying as much in reference to the lead-up to Duke), with certain "slots" being filled on the album (as you mentioned). I guess where we differ is I think all of these "attempts" on ATTWT are rather successful! I much prefer Undertow to Afterglow, for example. I also think Lady Lies should be heard as at least partly tongue-in-cheek; the lyrics really are a silly Prog parody, but their live presentation from this era lends a fairly comedic reading if the material, imo. Well, at least I HOPE it's tongue-in-cheek.

Oh, and I keep forgetting to comment on the OP's thesis: I've never heard a single neo-prog song that I could stomach, so I guess I can't help but want to keep my sacred "Big 6" Capital 'P' Prog Bands separate from what came after?

[Digital_Man]

It does have some really cool moments which outweigh the turkeys for me. Anyone else also think this verse from Down and Out were kind of a shot at the recently departed Hackett?

I don't want to beat about the bush
but none of us are getting any younger.
There's people out there who could take your place.
A more commercial view! A fresher face!

Definitely could be. I remember a few years ago when there was talk of a Genesis reunion Steve said something like well they should do it soon because as the song said "none of us are getting any younger." So maybe he was aware that that line was a dig at him. I don't know for sure of course. We can all speculate until the cows come home though.

[Firth]

ATTWT is not neo, neo is ATTWT to some extent because the vocal expressionism change here as Collins lets loose helped influence the whole neoprog. Since I went thru this period and did enjoy the album, at the same time I felt the disappointment of no Steve Hackett. To me a great guitar is an important element of Rock, and prog Rock has always been more entertaining for me.

[bill g]

Just listened to this 2 nights ago for the first time in years (box set Nick Davis remaster), and I have to admit 'Burning Rope' blew my socks off-amazing chordally, and perhaps as good as anything they've done. 3 others that I thoroughly enjoyed were 'Undertow', 'Say Its Alright Joe' (very moody), and 'The Lady Lies'. 'Deep In The Motherlode' is okay, but the mid-section sounded fantastic. As a whole, I like how the music fits the night/clouds picture in the lyric sheet perfectly.

The only two tracks that don't really do it for me are 'Scenes From A Nights Dream' and 'Follow You, Follow Me', but I certainly don't dislike them.

As to whether its neo or whatever... I almost don't think so, its kind of a one of a kind album, Genesis never really sounded like this again.

[Stickleback]

It does have some really cool moments which outweigh the turkeys for me. Anyone else also think this verse from Down and Out were kind of a shot at the recently departed Hackett?

I don't want to beat about the bush
but none of us are getting any younger.
There's people out there who could take your place.
A more commercial view! A fresher face!

I don't think so.

A) Steve wasn't fired
B) He wasn't replaced by a fresher face

I think it's more of a sly innuendo about the changing musical landscape of the late 70s and their shift to a more commercial, simplified sound. I also think this refrain from Heathaze pointed towards the same changing musical landscape and the adapt or die mentality:

Beware the fisherman whos casting out his line (the jaded prog rock fan)
Into a dried up river bed (the nearly dead prog rock scene of the late 70s)
But don't try to tell him cos he wont believe you.
Throw some bread to the ducks instead, its easier that way (appeal to the musical masses)

[jupiter0rjapan]

All I know is that I love that album to pieces. It has the weird distinction of not being one of my favorite Genesis albums, yet having some of my favorite Genesis moments. Many Too Many, The Ballad of Big, Down and Out, Say It's Alright Joe, Deep In The Motherlode, Burning Rope and Snowbound just all have some sort of vibe. The other songs get a little weak in parts, but I can live with them.

[moecurlythanu]

Anyone else also think this verse from Down and Out were kind of a shot at the recently departed Hackett?

I don't want to beat about the bush
but none of us are getting any younger.
There's people out there who could take your place.
A more commercial view! A fresher face!

No. They covered this same subject in "Duchess " from the 'Duke' album. Apparently the shelf life of a pop star / major label artist was something on their minds, having undoubtedly seen some of their contemporaries fall by the wayside throughout the 70s.

[the ferret]

Definitions of this kind are always difficult to be objective about. For me, neo-prog bands were the first show their influences so overtly. You don't have to listen too hard at Marillion or Solstice, for example, to have a decent stab at what was in their record collections. So, given that, maybe Starcastle were the first true neo-prog band. Just a thought....

As to ATTWT, it's a record I still go back to regularly but then I like Calling All Stations so what do I know?

[bill g]

As many have said, neo is typified by simpler chord structures, part of why I don't relate well to it. I would put 'Calling All Stations' closer to a neo vibe, (yet I like CAS). In retrospect, I don't think ATTW3 is anywhere near neo prog, more like a blend of symphonic prog and proggy pop.

[Trane]

Hello Vmartell (Vince of Vanilla Fudge??) and welcome

ATTWT was a total diisappointment for my progheads, but three decades down the road, the album isn't nearly as bad as what we made it out to be back then. But it's defintely a big slide from Seconds Out, W&W and an even bigger one from TotT.

Indeed, Motherlode is the highlight of tht album... much better than the horrible tear-jerker Your Own Special Way.

[vmartell]

Hello Vmartell (Vince of Vanilla Fudge??) and welcome

ATTWT was a total diisappointment for my progheads, but three decades down the road, the album isn't nearly as bad as what we made it out to be back then. But it's defintely a big slide from Seconds Out, W&W and an even bigger one from TotT.

Indeed, Motherlode is the highlight of tht album... much better than the horrible tear-jerker Your Own Special Way.

Hehe... not that v martell!


YOSW was definetely a preview of things to come... and is also very jarring when placed in the context of WaW... as poppy as FYFM... also poppier ( and not as good, imho - not that pop cannot be good) than anything ELSE in ATTWT...

V