Deep Purple's "Fireball" =

[JeffCarney]

Jeff, on a somewhat related note, what is your opinion of Jinx Dawson's assertion that Black Sabbath went "too far" in ripping off Coven?

Well, afaik, that assertion isn't musical. Unless he's even more confused than I've read. I believe his "theory" is that Sabbath lifted the idea for doing the "horror" thing from them. To me, he fails to understand that while that aspect of Sabbath was revved up by Vertigo at first, they quickly evolved into a somewhat different image. And I'd argue that Sabbath was never so black and white from the beginning. Some of the very earliest publicity photos might have been ideas Vertigo got from that Coven record and so on ... but musically I highly doubt they even heard that Coven album.

I think most people realize that Sabbath sort of pulled away from where Vertigo wanted to go pretty quick. They retained a dark image but it really became more about the state of the world as they viewed it as opposed to devilish rituals or whatever Coven were into. My guess is that they came up with the idea for writing dark music and their label came up with ideas on how to promote that from there. I don't doubt for a second that Vertigo looked around for who was onto this idea and got ideas for imagery or what not, but where they differed was musically. Nobody had quite come up with the music to match that imagery. Once they ascended they took more control of their brand and one could argue that by the time of Paranoid hit in September, 1970, they had a much clearer vision of how to combine their unique musical vision with unique imagery.

I also think Dawson apparently never heard of Arthur Brown, who was doing the horror shtick well before Coven.

[JeffCarney]

I guess I don't take these plagiarism assertions quite as seriously. I love Purple, Sabbath and Zeppelin and no amount of "evidence" is ever going to take the music down a notch at all. Was it disappointing to hear that Purple lifted from It's a Beautiful Day? Sure, but that doesn't take away how much I love Child In Time. And I'd never even heard of Warpig until today and it doesn't change how I feel about Fireball. I mean, I adore Spirit as well but I think their claims are likely to be thrown out as swiftly as Roger Dean against James Cameron. And if it came up that Sabbath lifted something from Volume IV, no way will I change my mind about that one either. I guess those albums are so ingrained into my head that in some respects, I can't be objective about them.

I see it a little differently. Jimmy Page has dropped a few notches in my view. Blackmore not so much because he's so open about how he ripped things off. I wish he hadn't but at least he's not full of shit.

TBH, I don't think anybody has squat on Iommi. To my knowledge, there is no YouTube video about stolen Sabbath songs which would be within a hundred miles of those on Zeppelin or even Purple. And I'm sure it's not for lack of trying. The only one I've seen is some Brazilian pop song might have inspired the "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" riff and that is a bit of musical stretch. I think the Brazilian song even came out the same year (1973), which means it would have been amazing turnaround time.

[Rael]

Jinx Dawson is a she and I think she stated that Coven and Sabbath toured together. I'll have to dig it up tomorrow as I'm heading out now.

[JeffCarney]

Jinx Dawson is a she and I think she stated that Coven and Sabbath toured together. I'll have to dig it up tomorrow as I'm heading out now.

Right, she was the singer.

They didn't tour together. Apparently Coven was one of the opening acts at a couple of their '71 gigs. I think I was thinking of "he" because there is another band member who somebody was referencing in some posts about Coven on a Sabbath FB conversation recently.

Memphis was one of the gigs. That's the famous gig where Sabbath returned after the concert to their hotel and found a cross on their door in blood. All these people were outside holding black candles and such and they were quite literally scared. They decided to all go out together, sang "Happy Birthday" to them, blew the candles out and got the heck out of there.

Whether they even put it together that perhaps some of those people were in one of the opening bands or that said band had released the album where Vertigo got some ideas for publicity photos, I have no idea. I tend to doubt it.

[arabicadabra]

I thought this was going to be a thread about Fireball the album - which is my favorite Deep Purple record of all time. It contains prog, the mixture of hard rock and rap, some virtuoso (for the time) playing by Roger Glover and so MUCH fire in the playing it drips attitude......

[grego]

I thought this was going to be a thread about Fireball the album - which is my favorite Deep Purple record of all time. It contains prog, the mixture of hard rock and rap, some virtuoso (for the time) playing by Roger Glover and so MUCH fire in the playing it drips attitude......

Sadly, it's about who stole what, which is not the musical point of view. Fireball is my fave too, along with Who Do We Think, We Are.

[Trane]

Don & Dewey was IABD quoting DP's "Wring That Neck"(1968)

sorrybut I've checked that allegation, a few times before and I didn't any link, beit on the studio version or on the In Concert version.

Jeff; i didn't say the whole song, but IM's guitar solo.

[JeffCarney]

Sadly, it's about who stole what, which is not the musical point of view. Fireball is my fave too, along with Who Do We Think, We Are.

You want to talk about Fireball, the album?

What's "sad" is that you apparently believe you are prevented from starting such a thread.

[JeffCarney]

Jeff; i didn't say the whole song, but IM's guitar solo.

Give me a break.

The "Iron Man" solo is improvised. Iommi does orchestrated solos on Paranoid, but that isn't one of them. If you hear similarities in his phrasings and so forth it's because he and Abrahams came from a similar school.

[grego]

You want to talk about Fireball, the album?

What's "sad" is that you apparently believe you are prevented from starting such a thread.

I believe all classical, pop and rock music is a common heritage, a free domain. You can take anything you want for any idea you like - your devoted listeners will judge your labour from a musical point of view. As a listener, I don't have any interest in lawers job, real or possible legal wrangling, lawsuits, etc ) My interest is music. To give credits, or not to give, depends on freewill of a thief, or a user, you can call them anyway you like - stealing is not a moral ploblem in the art world, mind you..And when thieves are better musicians, who sell for millions, music wins, and for music lovers it's justice.

[JeffCarney]

I believe all classical, pop and rock music is a common heritage, a free domain. You can take anything you want for any idea you like - your devoted listeners will judge your labour from a musical point of view. As a listener, I don't have any interest in lawers job, real or possible legal wrangling, lawsuits, etc ) My interest is music. To give credits, or not to give, depends on freewill of a thief, or a user, you can call them anyway you like - stealing is not a moral ploblem in the art world, mind you..And when thieves are better musicians, who sell for millions, music wins, and for music lovers it's justice.

Nonsense. Do you actually believe this garbage?

This is unethical thinking and simply viewing your musical heroes through rose colored glasses. Allowing them to operate on a different playing field than everybody else.

One day, listen to Skip James' original version of "I'm So Glad," then listen to what Cream did with it. Yet, they still credit the original composer. This is standard, accepted practice.

This isn't "black and white" and I don't think "Fireball" falls into the same category as something like "Dazed & Confused," but to suggest "stealing" is accepted practice in the art world is living with your head up your own ass; period.

[ronmac]

I believe all classical, pop and rock music is a common heritage, a free domain. You can take anything you want for any idea you like

Well, clearly, you have never created anything original yourself. Otherwise, you'd feel differently.

Crazy.

[TheLoony]

Fireball is cooler than the Warpig tune as no one plays air conditioner in the "original" tune.

I'm not surprised DP did this. At least they did it "better", although I don't think the original is that bad.

[JJ88]

Makes a change for this member to be creating the outrage, rather than expressing faux-outrage about people not liking late 70s ELP albums.

I totally agree with Jeff and ronmac, BTW. It's about being fair.

[Trane]

Give me a break.

The "Iron Man" solo is improvised. Iommi does orchestrated solos on Paranoid, but that isn't one of them. If you hear similarities in his phrasings and so forth it's because he and Abrahams came from a similar school.

OK, I just heard quickly Iron Man (I'm at work), and obviously it's not that one song I should've said....

But you know perfectly which Sab song I'm talking about (either on the debut or Paranoid), and only your Sabbath fanboyism and a good dose of bad faith could have you deny that ...

I've got no time to search which one right now, but if you can't hear Iommi doing Cat's Squirrel on one track of their first two albums, then let me challenge YOUR (self-proclaimed) specialist ears...

[JeffCarney]

OK, I just heard quickly Iron Man (I'm at work), and obviously it's not that one song I should've said....

But you know perfectly which Sab song I'm talking about (either on the debut or Paranoid), and only your Sabbath fanboyism and a good dose of bad faith could have you deny that ...

I've got no time to search which one right now, but if you can't hear Iommi doing Cat's Squirrel on one track of their first two albums, then let me challenge YOUR (self-proclaimed) specialist ears...

So let's recap:

Sean says (as if obvious fact) that "Iron Man" copied Jethro Tull's version of "Cat's Squirrel."

I post both, there's no real resemblance anywhere, and you then say you're talking about the "solo."

Now you go back to hear "Iron Man" and realize you spoke incorrectly.

So instead of just owning it and moving on, now it's just something from one of the first two albums and I have to figure it out for you.

Put it this way, I know This Was and I know Paranoid (as well as the first album) very well, but I've never heard any Iommi solo that could be described as a straight copy of Tull's "Cat's Squirel."

Google brings up zero on this topic, there's nothing on YouTube. I've lost interest.

[Trane]

I've only got time this week this morning to address this issue (since bith my Sab and Tull albums are not at hand's reach during the week >> they're in my Brussels pad)

Even by your standards, this is completely off the deep end.

OK, I just heard quickly Iron Man (I'm at work), and obviously it's not that one song I should've said....

But you know perfectly which Sab song I'm talking about (either on the debut or Paranoid), and only your Sabbath fanboyism and a good dose of bad faith could have you deny that ...

I've got no time to search which one right now, but if you can't hear Iommi doing Cat's Squirrel on one track of their first two albums, then let me challenge YOUR (self-proclaimed) specialist ears...

So let's recap:

Sean says (as if obvious fact) that "Iron Man" copied Jethro Tull's version of "Cat's Squirrel."

I post both, there's no real resemblance anywhere, and you then say you're talking about the "solo."

Now you go back to hear "Iron Man" and realize you spoke incorrectly.

So instead of just owning it and moving on, now it's just something from one of the first two albums and I have to figure it out for you.

Put it this way, I know This Was and I know Paranoid (as well as the first album) very well, but I've never heard any Iommi solo that could be described as a straight copy of Tull's "Cat's Squirel."

Google brings up zero on this topic, there's nothing on YouTube. I've lost interest.

You've been a bit of a goof with me over the last year or so, as soon as I touch Sabbath, but I'm not the only shitting in your cereal bowl, so don't take it out on me...


I kept the Tull YT above and post the Warning (yes, OK, not Iron Man, my bad)



From 3:30 onwards, it's plainly audible, sometimes slowed down or speeded up...
I never said it was done intetionnally, but it was question of weeks between Iommi's stint with Tull and the recording of Sab's debut album... I'm not even accusing Iommi of stealing Abrahams, since Cream had done Cat's Squirrel on their debut album (albeit fairly differently >> I prefer Tull's version) >> Actually, you can barely tell a link betyween Warning's solo and Cream's Cat Squirrel - it woud take a musicologist to do so...

[ronmac]

If I'm not mistaken that long jam in Warning (in fact, pretty much the entire debut album) was, for the most part, the way they played it during Sabbath's live set, right? So, those portions could very well have originated earlier than when they were recorded.

Either way, this is like picking the fly shit out of pepper.

[Trane]

Either way, this is like picking the fly shit out of pepper.

Given that I'm a heavy pepper grinder user (fave spice >> only un-crusshed black pepper bought on Sabbath, I' d rather sort out the fly shit out of it...

I french, it's called "enculeur de mouche" (fly butt-fucking) and in Dutch "Mirrh neuken" (ant-fucking), btw

[JeffCarney]

I've only got time this week this morning to address this issue (since bith my Sab and Tull albums are not at hand's reach during the week >> they're in my Brussels pad)

You've been a bit of a goof with me over the last year or so, as soon as I touch Sabbath, but I'm not the only shitting in your cereal bowl, so don't take it out on me...

I kept the Tull YT above and post the Warning (yes, OK, not Iron Man, my bad)

From 3:30 onwards, it's plainly audible, sometimes slowed down or speeded up...
I never said it was done intetionnally, but it was question of weeks between Iommi's stint with Tull and the recording of Sab's debut album... I'm not even accusing Iommi of stealing Abrahams, since Cream had done Cat's Squirrel on their debut album (albeit fairly differently >> I prefer Tull's version) >> Actually, you can barely tell a link betyween Warning's solo and Cream's Cat Squirrel - it woud take a musicologist to do so...

It's not just Sabbath and it's nothing to do with "goofing." I just think you sometimes put more emphasis on reviewing 10 million albums than truly paying attention to any of them.

For the record, Iommi was in Tull in late 1968. The first Sabbath album was recorded about a year later in late 1969. Not "weeks."

TBH, the fact that you have gone from stating that "Iron Man" was a lift of Tull's version of "Cat's Squirrel" to then claiming it was just a solo in "Iron Man" to now trying to use a portion of a jam in a cover song speaks for itself and this topic is over.

[Trane]

I was just being polite by calling you a goof... I actually thought much worse.

Avoiding the Warning issue does not make you anyless wrongly self-righteous, btw.
Because you've known from the start this was actually the case (which is now closed).

[JeffCarney]

I was just being polite by calling you a goof... I actually thought much worse.

Avoiding the Warning issue does not make you anyless wrongly self-righteous, btw.
Because you've known from the start this was actually the case (which is now closed).

Sean, there is no "Warning issue." Certain similarities between Iommi and Abrahams early soloing techniques and phrasings don't equate to one band ripping off another's song. The fact that "Warning" is a credited cover of an Ansley Dunbar composition makes this ridiculous assertion of yours all the more ironic.

I've tried to discuss your actual observation and not make this personal. No name calling.

I called you out on a specific, and all you had to do was concede that you made a mistake. All of us make them. You're no exception.

[Watanabe]

Those solos in Warning and Tull's Cat's squirrel are improvised solo's coming from two players with at the time a fairly similar vocabulary...loads of jazy triplet based phrasing, stiffened up a bit for heavy pentatonic blues.Plus you've got Bunker and Ward playing a similar textural thing with long jazzy rolls around the entire kit behind the soloing, so i can easily see someone making the connection between them.

With Warning being a cover that evolved into a long jam based instrumental to fill up the album, it's not difficult to imagine them riffing on bands they were digging at the time...the man riff scrotum linked being used as an intro point for a solo definitely seems to be a case of that(i'd actually never noticed it before)....you could imagine Iommi and Ward saying lets get a bit of that feeling going that Abraham and Bunker had on Cat's squirrel for a few minutes here...but i wouldn't say anything has been intentionally copied per se, it's not even in the perfectly acceptable realm of guys like Alvin Lee or Johnny Mac having a laugh by directly playing Sunshine of your Love or some other famous riff in the middle of a solo for a couple of bars(though the Man riff may be an example of that), or whatever keyboardist quoting a few brief bars from a classical piece during some extended jamming.

[grego]

Well, clearly, you have never created anything original yourself. Otherwise, you'd feel differently.

Crazy.

"Dear sir, it is a great honour to me that you have used my theme for your Masterpiece"
or " Bastard! It is actionable, I'm sure it is!" You can equally sympathise to both reactions, don't you?

[Trane]

Sean, there is no "Warning issue." Certain similarities between Iommi and Abrahams early soloing techniques and phrasings don't equate to one band ripping off another's song. The fact that "Warning" is a credited cover of an Ansley Dunbar composition makes this ridiculous assertion of yours all the more ironic.

Jeff,

I challenge you to find any post of mine where I accuse Iommi ripping off Tull... AAMOF, I tend to downplay any attempt at doing so by explaining that it's kind of natural that some of Tull's musicality could've rubbed off Iommi in the most natural manner of all: experience.

Plackating more or less directly your influences onto your new composition was just the way things were done around those times: I wouldn't call in Zeitgeist, but it was the way things were done... Only that we are looking at that period after 45 years of "political correctness", but I haven't read anyone here putting anyone from that era on trial (except for Mark Andes with Jimmy Page)

I've tried to discuss your actual observation and not make this personal. No name calling.

I called you out on a specific, and all you had to do was concede that you made a mistake. All of us make them. You're no exception.

Certainly no name-calling, just an observation of fact.

I use the word goof as in your goofing around, as to avoid the issue I meant to bring up >> Warning's lengthy solo sounding like Cat's Squirrel

if you claim knowing these albums inside out (and there is no way I'm disputing that), then you knew perfectly well that my first post in this thread should've mentionned Warning instead of Iron Man.... Because you've noticed this similarity a long time ago
Would you not be so touchy (and fanboyist) about anything Sabbath-y, you might have corrected me by saying something like : "surely you mean Warning?" and I would've thanked you for correcting me. We wouldn't have been through this unpleasantness.

Instead, you're out to ridicule anyone that you think is out to "attack" Sabbath...
I think we all love the Sabs' early works, or we wouldn't be here discussing this issue, so please relax instead of insinuating anything about someone's standards and motivations .