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Thread: The eyes of the world are watching us....

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by davis View Post
    a couple of years ago, someone in her early 20's told me "people choose who they vote for for selfish reasons. everybody knows that" in response to me saying that I vote for who I think is best for America, generally speaking.
    Ahh, but to my point, they only THINK they're voting for their own selfish reasons. Because, it seems more often than not, they are actually voting against them. This is not a partisan statement at all. People tend to believe what they're told and are generally too damned lazy to do their own research. They allow themselves to be swept up by relatively unimportant wedge issues that obscure the more important ones.

    Then there are those who see the world only in black and white.
    "The White Zone is for loading and unloading only. If you got to load or unload go to the White Zone!"

  2. #27
    facetious maximus Yves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    They allow themselves to be swept up by relatively unimportant wedge issues that obscure the more important ones.
    Amen! Always be ready with a story that shows us our differences whenever we get too close to seeing our similarities. Good ole divide and conquer....
    "Corn Flakes pissed in. You ranted. Mission accomplished. Thread closed."

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  3. #28
    Member wideopenears's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Lamplighter View Post
    I'm writing from England, but have always considered myself British rather than English, and it is a curious feeeling that the United Kingdom may soon no longer be United.

    It's perfectly true that Westminster have been complacent; I think an awful lot of Englishmen and women too have woken up in the last week or so to the fact that the voters could say Yes. And it's an interesting comment that the North of England could take comfort from a Yes vote, being an opportunity to tell the South that there are parts of the UK that are not London. I think that and I live less than 100 miles from the capital.

    Which leads me to a question for our American friends; you live in the United States - but how united are they? We never get to hear of any bitterness or squabbling about your regional issues over here, so it's easy to assume that everything is rosy in the American garden. Are powers sufficiently devolved to individual states that there is general equanimity about your lot?
    It is a different situation, as States have much more autonomy I think. But the issue of State's Rights, and the various interpretations of how different states handle various issues, is really the lifeblood of US political discourse. In simple terms, you could even say GOP Conservative view leans towards State power and Dems are often seen as supporters of Federal Gov't. power. Gross simplification, but has a shred of truth.

    Here in California, there have actually been referendums on the ballot about splitting the state into North and South.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Lamplighter View Post

    Which leads me to a question for our American friends; you live in the United States - but how united are they? We never get to hear of any bitterness or squabbling about your regional issues over here, so it's easy to assume that everything is rosy in the American garden. Are powers sufficiently devolved to individual states that there is general equanimity about your lot?
    Interesting question. From my perspective I would say the U.S. is generally united. There have been occasional secessionist movements, but nothing very serious that has gone anywhere. The exception might be Hawaii. I was actually talking to a friend of mine from Hawaii the other day and it seems that a “nationalist” independence type movement is bubbling there to some extent. How serious that movement is I have no clue, but I think there has always been an element in Hawaii who feel that they should be their own entity.

    In the state that I live in (Michigan) in the upper peninsula there have been organized efforts to break off into a separate state from the lower peninsula and even some extremists that have championed becoming part of Canada, but no one here seems to take it very seriously and nothing much has ever come of it. Texans have always had a fierce independent streak, but I don’t think there is any real tangible effort to break away from anything. The U.S. does have “territories” such as Puerto Rico which are controlled by us, but are not States. I believe there have been some pretty serious independence movements there (may have even had a vote a few years ago if I remember correctly). The individual states may have rivalries, but from my perspective the overall country seems pretty solidly bound together since the aftermath of the civil war in the mid 1800’s.

    The whole Scottish debate has been interesting to watch from the outside.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wideopenears View Post

    Here in California, there have actually been referendums on the ballot about splitting the state into North and South.
    Yes, similar to the U.P. / Lower P. here in Michigan although it has never made it to the referendum stage here so far.

  6. #31
    Member davis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveSly View Post
    ...I think there has always been an element in Hawaii who feel that they should be their own entity...
    That element is called the surfing community

  7. #32
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    I'm drinking Scotch, eating Haggis, playing golf, reading Burns, listening to Fish, and being thrifty in support of Scotland right now. Slainthe!

  8. #33
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Lamplighter View Post
    Which leads me to a question for our American friends; you live in the United States - but how united are they? We never get to hear of any bitterness or squabbling about your regional issues over here, so it's easy to assume that everything is rosy in the American garden. Are powers sufficiently devolved to individual states that there is general equanimity about your lot?
    The divisions in American political life have as much to do with pressures related to the perceived interests of rural & small town America vs the perceived interests of urban America, as much as anything else. As such, it doesn't really solidify into something like regional squabbling.

  9. #34
    Member davis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
    they only THINK they're voting for their own selfish reasons. Because, it seems more often than not, they are actually voting against them. This is not a partisan statement at all....
    A different person I used to correspond with in San Francisco, based on a comment I made about her radio station website, assumed I was "a real life example of Americana that voted for Bush and against yourself." then she called W a 'fucking fascist pig.' She tweeted the same about John Boehner, but left out the 'fascist' part. whew!!

  10. #35
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    Well that's the polls closed, so now we wait...

  11. #36
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davis View Post
    A different person I used to correspond with in San Francisco, based on a comment I made about her radio station website, assumed I was "a real life example of Americana that voted for Bush and against yourself." then she called W a 'fucking fascist pig.' She tweeted the same about John Boehner, but left out the 'fascist' part. whew!!
    Utter nonsense.

    Boehner's way too orange to be a pig.

  12. #37
    A YouGov on-the-day survey published shortly after polls closed suggested "No" was on 54% and "Yes" on 46%.

    The survey questioned 1,828 people after they voted, together with the postal votes of 800 people, although it is not a traditional exit poll.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-29263022

  13. #38
    The vote is NO, according to the BBC.

    As an American, I have absolutely no opinion on this.

  14. #39
    Someone further up the thread mentioned California. There was a petition drive this year to place a proposal on the ballot to split California into six states. The drive, however, failed to gather enough valid signatures to qualify for the ballot.

    There are a few independence movements active around the USA. SteveSly mentioned Hawaii. There's a group in Vermont that wants to split the state off into its own separate republic, as it existed around the time of the American Revolution. There was talk not long ago of splitting a number of counties in Colorado away to form a new state. Steve also mentioned Michigan, my home state -- there's long been talk that Michigan's Upper Peninsula wants to become its own state, but there's never been serious push for it. On the other hand, secession talk never stops from some corners in Texas.

    Out here in the Pacific Northwest, we have a budding movement that focuses not so much on independence (though that exists, too) but on creating a stronger regional identity based around common interests and goals, including environmental stewardship. It's called the Cascadia movement, and it even has its own flag. If it ever became its own breakaway nation, it would encompass Washington, Oregon, British Columbia, and possibly parts of other surrounding U.S. states. People in the movement out here were watching the Scotland vote with great interest, as there was a belief that a Yes vote could embolden other independence movements around the world, such as in Catalonia.

    The federal system we have in the USA means that the states are supposed to have autonomy in areas not conceded to the federal government in D.C. That idea lies at the heart of the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution. Many of these separatist movements have been springing up lately because some people believe that the federal government has taken too much power away from the states, and the states want that power back. Others are concerned that the federal government has simply grown too large and intrusive and want to create a new system of constitutionally restrained government. And in some cases, there's a concern that D.C. is just too far away to understand what's happening on the ground hundreds or thousands of miles away and therefore can't administer what people really need. People in the Cascadia movement have often pointed out that Seattle is more than 2,700 miles away from D.C. We're almost as close to the North Pole (2,900 miles) as we are to our nation's capital. Similarly, people in Vancouver are about 2,900 miles away from their federal government in Ottawa. The separatists in the Cascadia movement argue that a Cascadian nation could much more effectively meet the needs of its people, simply by being closer to them and better understanding the region and its people. I've heard some pretty convincing arguments that when nations grow too large, they can no longer govern effectively. When you're talking about a nation of 300 million people that spans a continent, you have to wonder if that argument has some merit.

    Here in the U.S., there is a strong and growing divide between liberals and conservatives. Some of the divide is indeed along rural vs. urban lines, but there are also enclaves around the nation in which the Republicans and Democrats can practically count on winning votes. The coasts are in general left-leaning, the South and the plains states are in general right-leaning, and everything else is a bit of a mix. So the breakaway movements have different goals, but the Vermont and Cascadia groups generally stand in opposition to corporate welfare, the military-industrial complex, and the surveillance state. Their governments would certainly be left-leaning if they were to break away.

    Will any of these groups ever reach their goals? I don't know, but the USA wouldn't give up territory without a fight, that's for sure. If B.C., Washington, and Oregon ever broke away to form a new nation, it would instantly become one of the world's top 20 economies.

    Bottom line for me: Everybody has a right to self-determination. I'm sorry to see the Scotland vote failed, but I hope the process brings more autonomy to Scotland.
    Last edited by Adrian; 09-19-2014 at 01:23 AM.

  15. #40
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    Well, the people have spoken and have decided we're not ready for independence.

    I'm disappointed, because I hoped that it would herald change for the better, but I can understand that others felt it was too big a risk.

    But, you know, some good things have come out of this referendum:

    - there has been an unprecedented 84% turnout to vote, which is remarkable in this current climate of cynicism, and if nothing else, it shows that the majority of the country contributed to this outcome

    - allowing 16-17 year olds to vote has engaged the younger generation and encouraged them to think about the world around them and vote for a future that they want

    - the result has been far from a landslide victory. 45% have sent a clear message to all UK politicians, that we want to see change.

    - perhaps Scotland can still develop and progress as a country if the unionist parties make good on their pledges to give more devolved powers to the Scottish Parliament. I have my doubts about their ability to do so, given that it's all so vague, and it may end up on the back-burner as they focus on winning English votes at the next UK election in 2015. But if they do renege on their pledges, democracy will allow the Scottish people to hold them to account at the next Scottish election in 2016.

    In the end, it was a vibrant campaign, the people turned out to vote in record numbers, and there was a clear result.

    Time now to move on and focus on the future.

  16. #41
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Damn , I drank all that Laphroig for nothing!

  17. #42
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Scotland votes 'Yes' to Dependence

  18. #43
    Progga mogrooves's Avatar
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    A missed opportunity and a vote for neoliberalism. Pity.
    Hell, they ain't even old-timey ! - Homer Stokes

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    The Scottish people refused to buy Salmond's pig in a poke.

    Next time, give the people something concrete to vote on, not a pipe dream and a wish list...

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by mogrooves View Post
    A missed opportunity and a vote for neoliberalism. Pity.
    That's the way I see it as well.

  21. #46
    facetious maximus Yves's Avatar
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    Separatist politicians from Québec were there to "see how it's done".... I guess they saw....
    "Corn Flakes pissed in. You ranted. Mission accomplished. Thread closed."

    -Cozy 3:16-

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    Funny how when there's a vote and a majority vote a certain way, there are always those on the opposing side who just don't get it.

    During the time I have lived in Perth, there have been no fewer than FOUR referenda, at intervals of about 7 years, on the daylight saving issue. I have always wanted daylight saving, and have voted yes every time, It's been rejected four times, the last time by a larger margin than on previous occasions. Do I whine about it? No, I accept the fact that I'm in the minority on this issue, and I get on with my life. When I am asked my opinion on the matter I will give it, otherwise I will let it go.

  23. #48
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_32_116 View Post
    Funny how when there's a vote and a majority vote a certain way, there are always those on the opposing side who just don't get it.

    During the time I have lived in Perth, there have been no fewer than FOUR referenda, at intervals of about 7 years, on the daylight saving issue. I have always wanted daylight saving, and have voted yes every time, It's been rejected four times, the last time by a larger margin than on previous occasions. Do I whine about it? No, I accept the fact that I'm in the minority on this issue, and I get on with my life. When I am asked my opinion on the matter I will give it, otherwise I will let it go.
    Why would anyone vote against daylight savings? I'd be up to get rid of "standard" time.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  24. #49
    Member moecurlythanu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post
    Why would anyone vote against daylight savings? I'd be up to get rid of "standard" time.
    I can't imagine a Scot being against any kind of savings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moecurlythanu View Post
    I can't imagine a Scot being against any kind of savings.
    Heh.

    "Lend us a quid till the end of the week, mon, an' I'll be indebted to ye forever."

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