Legendary Rock Drummer Carl Palmer Announces Retirement:

[JKL2000]

Coltrane, Miles and Mingus are possible legends if you wish ...

in rock, there are millions of players I'd classify as legendary (beit Bowie or BB King or Maca or Presley... even Emerson, if you wish... but Palmer is a bit of a stretch, IMHO

Sorry to correct you, but none of those people are rock drummers.

[JKL2000]

Me too, and it saddens me that we take this seriously, which doesn't say much for us

I didn't follow the link - I like ELP but only saw them once when they toured with Tull, so I don't much care if they're retired or not.

[PeterG]

I thought he died years ago.

[jowallan lid]

What is a legend in your mind?

Someone who is considered an influence. In rock drumming, Carl Palmer is not in the same group as John Bonham, Bill Bruford, Neil Peart, Billy Cobham, Stewart Copeland. He's a good drummer, like Alan White, but his style lacks innovation.

[JKL2000]

I thought he died years ago.

No, he seems to be in excellent health.

[Scrotum Scissor]

I thought he died years ago.

Yes, but now he's back as banjo virtuoso. They actually brought his corpse to Haiti and stuffed it full of Tetrodotoxin, before realizing what a mean banjo monster they'd created.

[Yanks2014]

Someone who is considered an influence. In rock drumming, Carl Palmer is not in the same group as John Bonham, Bill Bruford, Neil Peart, Billy Cobham, Stewart Copeland. He's a good drummer, like Alan White, but his style lacks innovation.

I disagree. His style is so completely different than any of those you mention, definitely as unique too. As for Alan White, I like his work a lot, though he's not on the same level as Palmer. I actually like White's work with Yes, studio and live more than Bruford. I think Bruford shined far more with Crimson and with his own band than with Yes.

[Luckie]

Looks more like a banjolele than a banjo.

[BravadoNJ]

i wonder who Asia would have replaced him with..... if it wasn't a joke.

[JKL2000]

Come on, what's the big debate? They're calling Palmer a drumming foot. A leg end.

[Phlakaton]

Someone who is considered an influence. In rock drumming, Carl Palmer is not in the same group as John Bonham, Bill Bruford, Neil Peart, Billy Cobham, Stewart Copeland. He's a good drummer, like Alan White, but his style lacks innovation.

Say what? You put Carl Palmer in the same camp as Alan White? My breakfast is now outside my body again.

[jkelman]

CP definitely ranks as a legendary drummer in my book and along with Buddy Rich possibly the 2 greatest drummers of all time...as far as a banjo player...well

Sorry to be a party pooper, but Palmer would have been a much better drummer had he worked harder on his time. The guy fluctuates so badly that, at times, you can hear Emerson and Lake struggling to stay where he is.

Great hands, great chops...would have been a great drummer had his time been better. Now, before folks start, most drummers (the metronomic Peart being an exception) do fluctuate a bit, and it's such minor fluctuations that make music feel human. But Palmer was well beyond reasonable fluctuations, and almost always sped up during his solos, big time. And when he was doing that double bass drum thing while ripping off his shirt! Not sure which is more cringe-worthy: the time of his bass drums or the idea of him ripping off his shirt...

[Watanabe]

Sorry to be a party pooper, but Palmer would have been a much better drummer had he worked harder on his time. The guy fluctuates so badly that, at times, you can hear Emerson and Lake struggling to stay where he is.

Great hands, great chops...would have been a great drummer had his time been better. Now, before folks start, most drummers (the metronomic Peart being an exception) do fluctuate a bit, and it's such minor fluctuations that make music feel human. But Palmer was well beyond reasonable fluctuations, and almost always sped up during his solos, big time. And when he was doing that double bass drum thing while ripping off his shirt! Not sure which is more cringe-worthy: the time of his bass drums or the idea of him ripping off his shirt...

definitely true that palmer was no steady timekeeper, but i often wonder why he seems to be almost alone at times in coming in for criticism of it when there were a good number of famous\good\great etc players from those pre-click track\studio perfection era's in Rock and Jazz that also were less than ideal in terms of strict timekeeping.

I tend to think it was probably because Palmer's style so heavily emphasised the Rudiments played in the closed position at high speed so often.Easier to be annoyed by wavering time when someone is tearing off Buddy Rich single strokes and fast marching patterns so often, as opposed to just comping along or playing in more of a groove oriented style.Palmer tended to play on the edge of his dexterity more than most, which is probably a big factor in him having such a divisive style.

In the end another talented rock player that didn't improve after his early woodshedding days...how many rock guys really do improve their craft significantly? it's a minority even in circles like so called "progressive" bands where musicianship is higher valued.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Sorry to be a party pooper, but Palmer would have been a much better drummer had he worked harder on his time. The guy fluctuates so badly big time.

Thx for pointing to the painful truth. I prefer Palmer's banjo playing myself, and I suspect he's a killer kazoo player as well.

As for someone likening him to Buddy Rich, well... Uh, yeah. Krupa, Rich, Elvin Jones and, y'know, Carl.

[Phlakaton]

definitely true that palmer was no steady timekeeper, but i often wonder why he seems to be almost alone at times in coming in for criticism of it when there were a good number of famous\good\great etc players from those pre-click track\studio perfection era's in Rock and Jazz that also were less than ideal in terms of strict timekeeping.

I tend to think it was probably because Palmer's style so heavily emphasised the Rudiments played in the closed position at high speed so often.Easier to be annoyed by wavering time when someone is tearing off Buddy Rich single strokes and fast marching patterns so often, as opposed to just comping along or playing in more of a groove oriented style.Palmer tended to play on the edge of his dexterity more than most, which is probably a big factor in him having such a divisive style.

In the end another talented rock player that didn't improve after his early woodshedding days...how many rock guys really do improve their craft significantly? it's a minority even in circles like so called "progressive" bands where musicianship is higher valued.

Only a couple guys (for me) come off sounding more advanced and even better with the passing years - Simon Phillips - Steve Smith - Dave Weckl --- and to a smaller degree Vinnie C (but Vinnie was so good so early its hard to tell).

[Scrotum Scissor]

Only a couple guys (for me) come off sounding more advanced and even better with the passing years

Did you ever hear Pip Pyle's 2002 input with US duo (trio) Absolute Zero (Crashing Icons)? If you're a fan of his (as your moniker might suggest) and haven't, then you're in for a thrill. The guy is a virtual powerhouse and plays with the stamina of someone half his age; amazing and great, great album.

Speaking of which, I just found this half-hour concert clip - apparently the only such footage of them, including the awesome Enrique Jardines on bass (he actually held a PhD on that instrument!). Sad to see how both Pyle and Jardines are now long gone.

[Scott Bails]

definitely true that palmer was no steady timekeeper, but i often wonder why he seems to be almost alone at times in coming in for criticism of it when there were a good number of famous\good\great etc players from those pre-click track\studio perfection era's in Rock and Jazz that also were less than ideal in terms of strict timekeeping.

Probably because it's so glaringly evident in one of the songs he's most known for, "Karn Evil 9, 1st Impression, Part 2"

[JJ88]

^And I'm surprised the drumming on the studio 'Battlefield' was put out. Then again, I'm surprised Lake's solo on that was as well.

[Phlakaton]

Did you ever hear Pip Pyle's 2002 input with US duo (trio) Absolute Zero (Crashing Icons)? If you're a fan of his (as your moniker might suggest) and haven't, then you're in for a thrill. The guy is a virtual powerhouse and plays with the stamina of someone half his age; amazing and great, great album.

Speaking of which, I just found this half-hour concert clip - apparently the only such footage of them, including the awesome Enrique Jardines on bass (he actually held a PhD on that instrument!). Sad to see how both Pyle and Jardines are now long gone.

I have... and I agree with everything you said. Awesome stuff.

[WytchCrypt]

Sorry to be a party pooper, but Palmer would have been a much better drummer had he worked harder on his time. The guy fluctuates so badly that, at times, you can hear Emerson and Lake struggling to stay where he is.

Not pooping on my party...I still think CP is one of the greats

[Watanabe]

Thx for pointing to the painful truth. I prefer Palmer's banjo playing myself, and I suspect he's a killer kazoo player as well.

As for someone likening him to Buddy Rich, well... Uh, yeah. Krupa, Rich, Elvin Jones and, y'know, Carl.

The Buddy Rich comparisons were mostly about his rudimental snare chops back in the day, soloing style and probably also due to Rich being a well documented fan of his style.

Anyone that knows anything about the technical side of drumming should easily be able to pick up a lot of Rich influence and licks in Palmer's playing.

Of course other than some technical influence and soloing style they are very different players, playing in a very different context.

[Watanabe]

Probably because it's so glaringly evident in one of the songs he's most known for, "Karn Evil 9, 1st Impression, Part 2"

Probably, but i'm sure if i went through all my records with famous and\or well regarded drummers of that era(and previous) with a mind to critiquing the technicalities of their playing, i could find slop of that calibre on well known albums for lots of them.Be it fluctuations in time, sloppy independence, uneven strokes, rushing most of their fills a bit etc stuff athat at the end of the day is usually not of great relevance for the bands they played in and tends to fade into the background when stacked against what they were doing well.

People can like and criticise whoever they want at the end of the day, but it just seems to me palmer gets it heavier than most, with less said about what he did do well and brought to the music.Most players have their good and bad points after all.Not that criticising Palmer really bothers me personally, but i find it interesting what players get away with things and who tends not to.I guess his style just doesn't resonate as well as some others.

[Scott Bails]

Probably, but i'm sure if i went through all my records with famous and\or well regarded drummers of that era(and previous) with a mind to critiquing the technicalities of their playing, i could find slop of that calibre on well known albums for lots of them.Be it fluctuations in time, sloppy independence, uneven strokes, rushing most of their fills a bit etc stuff athat at the end of the day is usually not of great relevance for the bands they played in and tends to fade into the background when stacked against what they were doing well.

Sure you could. But the point is that Palmer's timing on KE9 leaps out at even a casual listener.

[Scrotum Scissor]

Anyone that knows anything about the technical side of drumming should easily be able to pick up a lot of Rich influence and licks in Palmer's playing.

But this was hardly about "influence", it was about stature.

The fact remains that Palmer - and I certainly agree that when good, he was astoundingly great and powerful a drummer - is *no longer* a household name in the sense that Rich always WILL be. I really can't think of a single decidedly "prog rock" drummer other than Peart and Copeland entailing such a sky high status (even Bruford is far less known once you step outside the prog/fusion circuit), notwithstanding the fact that most Peart aficcionados don't seem to identify much with Rush's "prog" adherence and a majority of Copeland's following apparently don't know of or care for his work with Curved Air.

[cavgator]

Well I know that Asia is the butt of a joke on 'Supernatural', so maybe that counts (although I doubt it), but otherwise I simply don't believe that ELP is 'well remembered by the vast majority of the record buying public', even in the USA.

Outside the Progbubble, that is.

They are quite well known, along with many other of the top bands of the 1970s...