What's your Modern-day Supper's Ready/Close to the Edge/insert epic track here?

[Baribrotzer]

Someday I would like an explanation of why the old classics are inherently better than any modern epics - one which only requires a 6th grade education to comprehend.

One word - derivative. New 'prog' epics are derivative. That can be a great listen, but they don't have the creative spark of an original.

Trying hard to sound like it's 1972 don't make for greatness.

That, and I think that a lot of the time it's also the ability of the artists.

Let me explain that last: If you're really good at music, if that's the thing you seem to have been put on Earth to do, then you're probably going to want to do it full-time and make your living at it. Now in 1970, if you were Tony Banks and sounded like Tony Banks, you could do exactly that - you could play in a band who made albums that sounded like Foxtrot, and write songs that sounded like "Supper's Ready", and eventually get to the point of earning a pretty decent living at it. Nowadays, you can't. If you want to make music for a living, you have to do something else - movie scores, or video-game scores, or hip-hop/pop/R&B songwriting/production. Or play as a sideman. Or sort-of do music as a profession by teaching. Or give up the dream of making your passion also be your job, and do it as a hobby.

But I think that the biggest talents, the guys who would have been today's Fripp, Emerson, Squire et al, are mostly doing something else, some other type of music. Because that's what can pay the bills, and progressive music - or at any rate, anything we'd recognize as our kind of progressive music - doesn't. And so what you hear these days is mostly hobby bands, and their writing ability just isn't on the same level.

As I mentioned, there is virtually no music after the 1970s that matched that era. Still, my favourite epic, by 10 miles, is Echolyn's Mei (pretty frickin' brilliant).

I'm not sure it's my favorite of all time, although it's certainly up there. But think about this: Mei is two or three times as long as almost every Seventies epic.

And the difficulty of writing an epic increases with the length, because the songwriting skills a rock musician has, even prog songwriting skills, become increasingly not equal to the task. Up to 10, 15, maybe 17 minutes you can use a sort of vastly expanded AABA pop-song structure, as Yes did for "Close to the Edge". You can always use a suite or song-cycle form, of a half-dozen songs run together with maybe a couple of recapitulations, as in "Supper's Ready". But beyond that, the structural challenges start to add up, and to really make something that long work, you have to know significantly more about formal composition than even most of the best prog musicians do.

[ItalProgRules]

I have tried and tried and tried, and Mei does nothing at all for me.

I don't know why, it seems universally beloved here, but I just can't get into it at all. Not even a little.

[Progbear]

That, and I think that a lot of the time it's also the ability of the artists.

Let me explain that last: If you're really good at music, if that's the thing you seem to have been put on Earth to do, then you're probably going to want to do it full-time and make your living at it. Now in 1970, if you were Tony Banks and sounded like Tony Banks, you could do exactly that - you could play in a band who made albums that sounded like Foxtrot, and write songs that sounded like "Supper's Ready", and eventually get to the point of earning a pretty decent living at it. Nowadays, you can't. If you want to make music for a living, you have to do something else - movie scores, or video-game scores, or hip-hop/pop/R&B songwriting/production. Or play as a sideman. Or sort-of do music as a profession by teaching. Or give up the dream of making your passion also be your job, and do it as a hobby.

But I think that the biggest talents, the guys who would have been today's Fripp, Emerson, Squire et al, are mostly doing something else, some other type of music. Because that's what can pay the bills, and progressive music - or at any rate, anything we'd recognize as our kind of progressive music - doesn't. And so what you hear these days is mostly hobby bands, and their writing ability just isn't on the same level.

I don’t know. I hear a lot of instrumental chops out there; it’s the songwriting I find weak. This is generally the problem I have with the likes of Spock’s Beard, their epics tend to have the feel of sloppy, slapdash constructions of incomplete pop-song fragments and unrelated proggy noodling (The Light) or completely formulaic “prog epic paint-by-numbers kit” (most of the rest of their stuff). And please, let us not get into the subject of Neal Morse’s singing and lyrics. Ugh!

It’s really not a question of musicianship, it’s actually I think the Berkelee School of Music “chops at any cost” attitude that I think infected prog for the worst; latter-day prog musicians are more interested in showing off what hot players they are and less interested in composing strong music. And most prog epics these days come across as very, very contrived; not long to any real end but long for the purpose of being long because “it’s what Yes and Genesis did.” Sort of like bands using Mellotron (or, worse, sampled Mellotron and crediting it as the real thing) for no reason other than it’s expected of them. It comes across as a shallow exercise in ticking off boxes (Over ten minutes? Check. Mellotron swells? Check. Wanky high-speed guitar solo? Check. A bit where the time signature changes about ten times? Check. A bit where the Moog goes “widdly-widdly”? Check) and less a satisfying musical experience.

I’m not saying all modern prog is like this but it’s more prevalent than I would like. I think a lot of these prog bands could benefit from outside influences rather than being influenced solely by other prog bands (or, worse, metal and 80s AOR, which I think are really toxic influences on latter-day prog and a main reason so much of it is so unlistenable to me).

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

"Parece cosa de maligno. Los pianos no estallan por casualidad." --Gabriel Garcia Marquez

N.P.:“Shangri-là”-Capsicum Red/Appunti per un idea fissa

[lycialive]

IQ Harvest of Souls, yes indeedy.

[JIF]

IQ Harvest of Souls, yes indeedy.

I liked it better when it was called Supper's Read. LOL!

[Scrotum Scissor]

I don’t know. I hear a lot of instrumental chops out there; it’s the songwriting I find weak. This is generally the problem I have with the likes of Spock’s Beard, their epics tend to have the feel of sloppy, slapdash constructions of incomplete pop-song fragments and unrelated proggy noodling (The Light) or completely formulaic “prog epic paint-by-numbers kit” (most of the rest of their stuff). And please, let us not get into the subject of Neal Morse’s singing and lyrics. Ugh!

It’s really not a question of musicianship, it’s actually I think the Berkelee School of Music “chops at any cost” attitude that I think infected prog for the worst; latter-day prog musicians are more interested in showing off what hot players they are and less interested in composing strong music. And most prog epics these days come across as very, very contrived; not long to any real end but long for the purpose of being long because “it’s what Yes and Genesis did.” Sort of like bands using Mellotron (or, worse, sampled Mellotron and crediting it as the real thing) for no reason other than it’s expected of them. It comes across as a shallow exercise in ticking off boxes (Over ten minutes? Check. Mellotron swells? Check. Wanky high-speed guitar solo? Check. A bit where the time signature changes about ten times? Check. A bit where the Moog goes “widdly-widdly”? Check) and less a satisfying musical experience.

I’m not saying all modern prog is like this but it’s more prevalent than I would like. I think a lot of these prog bands could benefit from outside influences rather than being influenced solely by other prog bands (or, worse, metal and 80s AOR, which I think are really toxic influences on latter-day prog and a main reason so much of it is so unlistenable to me).

One word: WORD!

Very well put, and as muvh as I still absolutely love "classic" symphonic progressive, I can only listen to a handful-or-so of modern wannabes of that specific brand. And none of them are recording for InsideOut.

But then I was never into Richard Marx, Jon Bongiovi, Bryan Adams or Def Leppard either, and for some bizarre reason I seem to hear them all in much of "third wave 'prog'".

[Baribrotzer]

I don’t know. I hear a lot of instrumental chops out there; it’s the songwriting I find weak.

That was what I meant, but I guess I didn't say it all that clearly. The bands - or some of 'em, anyway - can play better than ever. But that wasn't what I was trying to talk about. I was trying to say that the writing - which, in my opinion, is the heart and soul of prog - just isn't happening.

This is generally the problem I have with the likes of Spock’s Beard, their epics tend to have the feel of sloppy, slapdash constructions of incomplete pop-song fragments and unrelated proggy noodling (The Light) or completely formulaic “prog epic paint-by-numbers kit” (most of the rest of their stuff). And please, let us not get into the subject of Neal Morse’s singing and lyrics. Ugh!

It’s really not a question of musicianship, it’s actually I think the Berkelee School of Music “chops at any cost” attitude that I think infected prog for the worst; latter-day prog musicians are more interested in showing off what hot players they are and less interested in composing strong music. And most prog epics these days come across as very, very contrived; not long to any real end but long for the purpose of being long because “it’s what Yes and Genesis did.” Sort of like bands using Mellotron (or, worse, sampled Mellotron and crediting it as the real thing) for no reason other than it’s expected of them. It comes across as a shallow exercise in ticking off boxes (Over ten minutes? Check. Mellotron swells? Check. Wanky high-speed guitar solo? Check. A bit where the time signature changes about ten times? Check. A bit where the Moog goes “widdly-widdly”? Check) and less a satisfying musical experience.

I’m not saying all modern prog is like this but it’s more prevalent than I would like. I think a lot of these prog bands could benefit from outside influences rather than being influenced solely by other prog bands (or, worse, metal and 80s AOR, which I think are really toxic influences on latter-day prog and a main reason so much of it is so unlistenable to me).

-------------
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")

Moreover, there's a fundamental problem with the "epic", or at least the longer attempts: It is extraordinarily hard to do really well. Few classical composers, even the great ones, have written a single piece of music of that length, and that's the reason: Building something cohesive, in which each part follows from the one before it, every part somehow relates to all the others, and the piece stands as one unified artistic statement becomes almost impossibly difficult at that great an extent. The structural and artistic problems of making that much music somehow add up to a single work - rather than a bunch of shorter episodes run together - get close to insoluble. That's why most symphonies have multiple movements of, typically, five to twenty minutes each: because such a length is sufficient to deal with a few themes in depth, but not so long as to present the major difficulties of having to do justice to too many ideas and to integrate all of them into a complete statement. For a specific illustration, the longest symphonic movement in the standard repertoire is the First Movement of Mahler's Third, which can last from thirty to forty minutes, depending on tempo. And while operas can stretch considerably longer, they tend to consist of multiple short sections - arias, recitatives, duets, and ensembles, plus instrumental introductions, conclusions, and interludes - all tied together by themes, motives (especially in Wagner) and the storyline.

[Digital_Man]

All of the above-transatlantic
Harvest of souls-IQ

[Scrotum Scissor]

That was what I meant, but I guess I didn't say it all that clearly. The bands - or some of 'em, anyway - can play better than ever. But that wasn't what I was trying to talk about. I was trying to say that the writing - which, in my opinion, is the heart and soul of prog - just isn't happening.
Moreover, there's a fundamental problem with the "epic", or at least the longer attempts: It is extraordinarily hard to do really well. [...] The structural and artistic problems of making that much music somehow add up to a single work - rather than a bunch of shorter episodes run together - get close to insoluble. That's why most symphonies have multiple movements of, typically, five to twenty minutes each: because such a length is sufficient to deal with a few themes in depth, but not so long as to present the major difficulties of having to do justice to too many ideas and to integrate all of them into a complete statement.

Three of my very favorite "epics" from yore are Henry Cow's "Living In the Heart of the Beast", Aqsak Maboul's "Cinema" and Picchio dal Pozzo's "Mettiamo e Il Caso Che...", all of which showcase dominant through-composed (as in "densely written") passages as well as snippets of modal improv. They all succeed as unified entities due to the overall attention to detail in strategic structure, precisely because they are that formally processed as written works. Most "symph rock" epics I've heard were not conceived at that level of theoretical procedure, but interestingly - to me, some of those that indeed were (like "Karn Evil 9") and thus also stem from a first-principle creative idea, belong to the positive exceptions. The "potpurry" concept can have very rewarding outcomes as well (think "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers"), but I think it's a completely different approach altogether.

Anyone hear Maxwell's Demon's Prometheus, with that one, single title track? It's very good, but I'd love it more if it were in three parts - even lthough it is a "formally composed" piece.

[Amy]

I have tried and tried and tried, and Mei does nothing at all for me.

I don't know why, it seems universally beloved here, but I just can't get into it at all. Not even a little.

I listened to Mei at least ten times before it one day went "ping!" and made its way in.

[sonic]

But then I was never into Richard Marx, Jon Bongiovi, Bryan Adams or Def Leppard either, and for some bizarre reason I seem to hear them all in much of "third wave 'prog'".

Wo oh we're living on a prayer, close to the edge down by the river, we're in Heaven!

[Yehuda Kotton]

I don’t know. I hear a lot of instrumental chops out there; it’s the songwriting I find weak. This is generally the problem I have with the likes of Spock’s Beard, their epics tend to have the feel of sloppy, slapdash constructions of incomplete pop-song fragments and unrelated proggy noodling (The Light) or completely formulaic “prog epic paint-by-numbers kit” (most of the rest of their stuff). And please, let us not get into the subject of Neal Morse’s singing and lyrics. Ugh!

It’s really not a question of musicianship, it’s actually I think the Berkelee School of Music “chops at any cost” attitude that I think infected prog for the worst; latter-day prog musicians are more interested in showing off what hot players they are and less interested in composing strong music. And most prog epics these days come across as very, very contrived; not long to any real end but long for the purpose of being long because “it’s what Yes and Genesis did.” Sort of like bands using Mellotron (or, worse, sampled Mellotron and crediting it as the real thing) for no reason other than it’s expected of them. It comes across as a shallow exercise in ticking off boxes (Over ten minutes? Check. Mellotron swells? Check. Wanky high-speed guitar solo? Check. A bit where the time signature changes about ten times? Check. A bit where the Moog goes “widdly-widdly”? Check) and less a satisfying musical experience.

I’m not saying all modern prog is like this but it’s more prevalent than I would like. I think a lot of these prog bands could benefit from outside influences rather than being influenced solely by other prog bands (or, worse, metal and 80s AOR, which I think are really toxic influences on latter-day prog and a main reason so much of it is so unlistenable to me).

the plain truth

[arabicadabra]

It's funny to me that Spock's Beard's writing of epics would be an example of poor or formulaic writing - to me, the strength of their writing is what brought me in . Different strokes, I guess - but I'll always think of The Doorway, Flow, Walking On The Wind, The Healing Colors Of Sound and The Great Nothing as some of the best epic prog EVER done - by anyone....

[Dodie]

It's funny to me that Spock's Beard's writing of epics would be an example of poor or formulaic writing - to me, the strength of their writing is what brought me in . Different strokes, I guess - but I'll always think of The Doorway, Flow, Walking On The Wind, The Healing Colors Of Sound and The Great Nothing as some of the best epic prog EVER done - by anyone....

Ah, good, the voice of sanity returns to the discussion...

Some folks around here seem to confuse good tunes with bad quality. Sad.

[Scrotum Scissor]

It's funny to me that Spock's Beard's writing of epics would be an example of poor or formulaic writing - to me, the strength of their writing is what brought me in . [...] The Doorway

A most precise illustration of that exact inherent weakness described so eloquently by Progbear. To me, this "progressive 'piece'" is little but a drawn-out, binary play on the old riff-based verse/chorus/bridge-affair, adequately spiced up to fit a purpoted "prog" format in terms of length and rather shallow concept of structure. For eminent mergers of sophisticated pop/rock and "symphonic progressive" sensibilities, give me the earliest Ambrosia albums or even Dunnery-era It Bites any day (at least its artistic motives are earnest), just not this.