AOR Prog?

[JJ88]

I do agree that there's a genre madness within rock, but basically yes, 'melodic rock' is at least akin to what it sounds like- rock, but with big pop choruses.

Prog elements were part of the original AOR brew so to split them seems counterproductive. What became known as AOR took the flashy surface elements involving keyboard soloing, self-conscious 'mystical' lyrics and time-signature flamboyance, rather than the real sonic experimentation. That's how I've always felt about the likes of Styx and to a lesser extent Kansas- it's certainly enjoyable on its own terms but much slicker and far less risk-taking than the original wave of progressive rock bands, to the point I don't really consider them on the same playing field. With Foreigner you have the likes of 'Tramontane', 'Starrider', Toto's 'Hydra' and 'Child's Anthem', Boston's 'Foreplay/Long Time'...a certain, can I say, watered-down prog element was always part of it. To me a band like Yes have always been more jagged and raw than any of these groups.

I can't speak with direct experience but would it be true to say that in the US, FM radio softened and became less risk-taking somewhere in the mid 70s?

Pink Floyd don't fit- far too lyrically aggressive.

[cavgator]

Because it's not. The genre is rock. The era is the '70s. Hence, '70s rock music. Boston, Steely Dan, Journey, Elton John, Allman Brothers, Joni Mitchell, Fleetwood Mac - Rock music from the '70s. It's not relevant how similar or dissimilar they sound - they're all rock music.

I break those bands down more than you do. For me, I name a certain genre Arena Rock, whose common characteristics are: slickly produced, anthem-type lyrics, chords, and a type of facelessness, all of which are made to be as commercially popular as possible:

Such bands for ME (YMMV) include, but are not limited to:

AC/DC
Aerosmith (post Draw The Line)
Asia
Boston
Cheap Trick
Def Lepperd
Foreigner
Genesis (post Abacab)
Kansas (except for the early stuff)
Journey
Judas Priest
Bon Jovi
Bryan Adams
Loverboy
Poison
Queen (post Jazz)
Rush (more prog metal, acutally)
Survivor
Toto
Styx
Whitesnake
Van Hagar
Cinema (YesWest)

They certainly are not all the same. Some are proggier than others. The hits are very listenable in a party mix of songs everyone recognizes. Always a positive vibe, but not something I would sit in front of the stereo in my overstuffed chair with a glass of wine and listen to...

[JJ88]

^I'm not sure about AC/DC. They just aren't slick enough. I think only 80s Judas Priest qualifies. No real argument with the others you mention. These are all, I think, slicker than both the original wave of progressive rock bands and hard rock bands. Still like most of them though.

[Scott Bails]

Pink Floyd don't fit- far too lyrically aggressive.

Not after Waters left.

[Rufus]

Not after Waters left.

Correct, PF defo fit the AOR Prog tag after Waters left!

[N_Singh]

Consummate AOR guitar sound-and/or riff -"Jane" by Jefferson Airplane
Or "Since you've been Gone " Rainbow

[moecurlythanu]

Tom has it right (again) in post #32

[progeezer's ghost]

In that case personally I really like Floyds AOR material. (I also like Floyds non AOR material too)--very little Floyd I dont like in all its styles.

+1

[Reginod]

Trillion.

First album had a few decent-ish moments and some cheese. Pretty cool cover too. Haven't heard the second album.

[Trane]

In Sweden my impression is that the term "Melodic Rock" (melodisk rock) has gain a broad recognition.

Well in the previous list, I don't find that kind of rock (AOR/Corporate/Stadium) all that melodic... at least not enough to gain that kind of tag.

Consummate AOR guitar sound-and/or riff -"Jane" by Jefferson Airplane
Or "Since you've been Gone " Rainbow

Jefferson Starship is definitely AOR
yes, later Rainbow (as soon as Dio left really)

Trillion.

First album had a few decent-ish moments and some cheese. Pretty cool cover too. Haven't heard the second album.

Mannnnnn, record shops could'n't give that album away... I saw it all over the place at 1.99£ at the time... and the pile wasn't getting shorter.

They let these dudes record a second one??

[Reginod]

Mannnnnn, record shops could'n't give that album away... I saw it all over the place at 1.99£ at the time... and the pile wasn't getting shorter.

They let these dudes record a second one??

They did a second one, which also sold ten copies, and then Patrick Leonard made a fortune working with Madonna (among others). He was also married to Olivia D'Abo.

[trurl]

They did a second one, which also sold ten copies, and then Patrick Leonard made a fortune working with Madonna (among others). He was also married to Olivia D'Abo.

And he did that thing with that Kevin Dilbert guy.

[Reginod]

And he did that thing with that Kevin Dilbert guy.

Light yet primitive electronica as I understand . . . . . . .

[elliottnow]

Triumph?

[Trane]

Triumph?

Nt sure I wuld call the first three AOR (they're kind of proggy), neither the next two (they're kind of matally)... But after Allied Forces, why not??

[bRETT]

Last night the Regent Theater had a reunion show of the band New England. If any band was "AOR Prog" they're it.

[Progbear]

The current debates about sub-prog genres doesn't seem to take into consideration bands like Styx, Starcastle,Kansas et al & dare I say it Pink Floyd (post WYWH).Therefore is there a case for a sub-genre called AOR Prog, if not where do they fit?

The term you’re looking for is “pomp rock,” and Styx are kind of the ur-example. It’s clear they wanted to be a prog band (at least Dennis De Young wanted them to be, as did JC some of the time...it seems he was a bit wishy-washy on the subject based on his contributions during the early days), but they seriously got side-tracked by their commercial aspirations (which paid off big time). See also Angel, American Tears, Touch, New England, Roadmaster, etc. Starcastle and Kansas I would not group with the pomp-rock acts, they were the US equivalent of “real” prog, at least to begin with.

Trillion.

First album had a few decent-ish moments and some cheese. Pretty cool cover too. Haven't heard the second album.

Yeah, them too. Textbook pomp.

Prog elements were part of the original AOR brew so to split them seems counterproductive. What became known as AOR took the flashy surface elements involving keyboard soloing, self-conscious 'mystical' lyrics and time-signature flamboyance, rather than the real sonic experimentation. That's how I've always felt about the likes of Styx and to a lesser extent Kansas- it's certainly enjoyable on its own terms but much slicker and far less risk-taking than the original wave of progressive rock bands, to the point I don't really consider them on the same playing field. With Foreigner you have the likes of 'Tramontane', 'Starrider', Toto's 'Hydra' and 'Child's Anthem', Boston's 'Foreplay/Long Time'...a certain, can I say, watered-down prog element was always part of it. To me a band like Yes have always been more jagged and raw than any of these groups.

Disagree about the “time-signature flamboyance” (most AOR stuff I’ve heard has been strictly common time) but agree otherwise. Yes always had a very sophisticated harmonic palette, most of the bands you mention pretty much stick to major/minor diatonic stuff and radio-friendly verse-chorus song forms.

Incidentally, go back and listen to Toto’s “Hydra” to hear the true origin of the Spock’s Beard sound:

Very much disagree on both counts.

So...you’re saying you consider Asia to be “real” prog, yet NOT 90125?

[Scott Bails]

90125 is pretty much a strange category unto itself. It's fresh, definitely popular, song based.

But NOT AOR.

And definitively, AOR prog ain't Steve Howe's ASIA and the likes...

Very much disagree on both counts.

So...you’re saying you consider Asia to be “real” prog, yet NOT 90125?

Not at all what I said. I'm saying that 90125 is absolutely AOR, and that Steve Howe's Asia is the very epitome of "AOR Prog," if there even is such a thing.

[JJ88]

I think the prog content in Asia is insubstantial- there's a little bit more of it on the debut but on the Wetton albums after that, not so much.

The time-signature thing I mentioned...I was talking about things like, say, Styx 'Fooling Yourself', Kansas' 'Carry On Wayward Son' etc. where the rhythms shift. Maybe 'rhythmic flamboyance' would have been better. By the 80s that too had been played down- the big ones by Journey, REO Speedwagon etc. are more 'straight'.

In the UK we had Magnum who were in that 'pomp rock' sort of style as well, early on.

[Scott Bails]

Maybe 'rhythmic flamboyance' would have been better.

I think I saw some of that when I saw Queen + Adam Lambert.

[JKL2000]

yup, Floyd went AOR once Gilmour took over

They never stop playing the entire Pompeii concert on the radio...

[Progbear]

I think the prog content in Asia is insubstantial- there's a little bit more of it on the debut but on the Wetton albums after that, not so much.

Apart from maybe “Time Again” (at least the intro and closing sections), it’s really a stretch to call any Asia prog, or even pomp-rock, in spite of their pedigree. They were a calculated attempt to get across-the-board airplay (i.e.: AM & FM) on US radio. It has far more in common (musically) with Journey, Toto, Foreigner, Boston et al than it does with Yes, ELP, UK, King Crimson and the like.

Yes’ 90125 was something completely different. It was probably more small “p” progressive in the sense of trying something different and moving with the times (Trevor Horn’s production hand is very heavy here), though there’s still obvious prog moments here (“Changes,” “Cinema”). “Owner of a Lonely Heart” had to be a #1 hit because, love it or hate it, let’s face it, when have you ever heard another song like it before or since? I would not call 90125 an AOR album (Big Generator, on the other hand... *shudder*), it was something absolutely unique, even if it was clearly a product of its times (with all that Fairlight, how can it not be?).

[JJ88]

^There's also things like the instrumental parts of 'Sole Survivor' and 'Wildest Dreams', the 'classical' keyboard ending to 'Cutting It Fine'. But yeah, not that much.

I do remain surprised that people lump '90125' and Asia in the same category. '90125' had a totally different, tighter production job and had lots more surprises in the arrangements- Asia had that cavernous, stadium-rock production.

[JJ88]

I think I saw some of that when I saw Queen + Adam Lambert.

What was that like?

[Scott Bails]

What was that like?

I thought it was excellent. It was exactly what it was billed as: "Queen + Adam Lambert." It wasn't "Queen" with Adam Lambert filling-in for Freddie Mercury, though he did a very admirable job of that. But he often made some choices that clearly were meant to distance himself from the original albums. He can hit all of the notes, and flamboyant enough on his own that he can be himself and still get away with something like "Killer Queen" without imitating Freddie. But he did all of that with his own voice. And, while no one can hold an audience in the palm of their hand like Freddie could, Lambert was an excellent performer. I was originally all geeked-up to see Brian May, whom I've never seen before, but his 20-minute solo was easily the lowlight of the night - calling it "self-indulgent" would be a compliment. But overall, a very entertaining rock show.