Uncut - Fripp - resentment - Yes

[AncientChord]

After the Madame Wong's Frippertronics show in L.A., Bobby stood at the one exit and politely thanked each audience member for coming and shook everyone's hand. He did appear uncomfortable, but he didn't show any signs of shyness nor hostility, the later only being directed at Madame Wong herself! One time I was emailing a person and we were talking about Fripp and his somewhat difficult personality. In the email I said that I don't know how Toyah Wilcox could stand him, etc.. Little did I know that the person I was emailing to was a friend of Fripp's and he forwarded my email, which was never meant for Fripp to see. Fripp responded to me in his public diary and ripped me a new one. So I guess I did deserve the quite articulate tongue lashing. This was at least 5 years ago. Now in hindsight, I do give Toyah more credit, as I forgot that she's English too!

[GuitarGeek]

The thing about Fripp is, he has his own concept of logic and his way of doing things. I remember all the talk back in the 80's about his "Drive to 1981" campaign, followed by his "Slide to 1984" campaign. I recall an interview where Belew said he had no idea what Fripp was talking about with that stuff.

When Three Of A Perfect Pair came out, I remember being speculation in at least one article that King Crimson would disband after the tour, because Fripp likes to everything in threes or whatever, and since that was the third 80's era Crimson album, that meant Fripp would move onto something else. And of course that's exactly what happened. And I get the impression, as far as the rest of the band is concerned, such decisions make sense to Fripp himself and only him.

Then there's things like Fripp banning Bruford from using cymbals in the 80's era Crimson. Now, that's not quite what happened, Bill did use some cymbals, but Fripp made him cut way back because "He's taking all my accents away", whatever the frell that's supposed to mean. Gee, makes me wonder how every other musician who works with a drummer has managed to put up with cymbals (other than the original lineup of Throwing Muses, that's about the only band I can think of that didn't use cymbals at all).

Then there's Fripp's wisecrack about how Jamie Muir was "too well balanced to stay in King Crimson". I still can't figure out if that was dry sarcasm, or if he was suggesting that as eccentric as Jamie was, he still wasn't crazy enough to continue with Crimson.

BTW, I remember a couple years ago, there was a documentary special on BBC America about Doctor Who, and would you believe, one of the celebrity commentators was none other than Toyah herself. I envisioned the two of them watching Doctor Who together, and then having long winded debates about each episode afterwards. I imagined you either would have Fripp pointing out, in his unique dry fashion, all the plotholes, with Toyah replying, "It's only just a TV show", with Fripp then launching into a longwinded explanation of why that's no excuse for lazy scriptwriting.

Or perhaps it works the other way, since Toyah has indentified herself as a fan, you've got her maybe pointing out plotholes, then Fripp in his unique way, saying "It's just a TV show", and then Toyah locking the bedroom door and making Fripp sleep on the sofa for a week..."How dare you say it's just a TV show?!"

Yeah, I know, I'm a dork,and I have an overactive imagination. (shrug)

[unclemeat]

btw Toyah's autobiography Living out loud has some amusing observations about her husband.

[Genital Giant]

btw Toyah's autobiography Living out loud has some amusing observations about her husband.

Care to share them since I don't want to pick up the book just for that?

[Luckie]

So what does Anderson have to say about H&E?

"It's no FFH."

But Jon Anderson speaks highly about everything.

[jkelman]

Sorry, but one page with a big photo is not exactly a big article.

[jkelman]

"It's no FFH."

Thanks for a morning larf!

[jkelman]

When Three Of A Perfect Pair came out, I remember being speculation in at least one article that King Crimson would disband after the tour, because Fripp likes to everything in threes or whatever, and since that was the third 80's era Crimson album, that meant Fripp would move onto something else. And of course that's exactly what happened. And I get the impression, as far as the rest of the band is concerned, such decisions make sense to Fripp himself and only him.

If you look at the ECM catalogue, you'll see that, with rare exception, Manfred Eicher tends to think that way too. I can see it, to a point: after three records, without any significant change, groups begin to repeat themselves. Not always, but it' snot a bad general rule, IMO.

Then there's things like Fripp banning Bruford from using cymbals in the 80's era Crimson. Now, that's not quite what happened, Bill did use some cymbals, but Fripp made him cut way back because "He's taking all my accents away", whatever the frell that's supposed to mean. Gee, makes me wonder how every other musician who works with a drummer has managed to put up with cymbals (other than the original lineup of Throwing Muses, that's about the only band I can think of that didn't use cymbals at all). [/quote]
It's more than just about accents; Peter Gabriel went for the same thing, as did a friend of mine, for a time, because cymbals take up frequencies that often conflict so voices and other instruments, and being so generally loud and splashy, really dominate. I think the idea of pulling back on cymbals in a big way ain't a bad experiment, if only to see what happens to all those other instruments when they're taken out of the mix. Don't get me wrong...I'm far from anti-cymbal (as is clearly true, based on subsequent recordings from Fripp, Gabriel et al), but I think, especially at the time, it wasn't an unwise choice. Given the Gamelan-like nature of Belew and Fripp's interlocking guitar parts, regular emphasis on cymbals might have been very problematic, with the cymbals washing out many of the frequencies.

It's not a suggestion that everyone should try...but in some cases it makes sense, and it think it helped give crimson a unique sound when they first emerged with Discipline.

Then there's Fripp's wisecrack about how Jamie Muir was "too well balanced to stay in King Crimson". I still can't figure out if that was dry sarcasm, or if he was suggesting that as eccentric as Jamie was, he still wasn't crazy enough to continue with Crimson.

It seems folks are so quick to judge Fripp baed on the small snippets they hear. From trusted sources, he can be a funk charming and witty person to be around. Does he hold strong control over Crimson...what defines it and what does not? Sure, but hey, he's the only remaining original member and while I believe that he treats it as a collective insofar as everyone has input into the ultimate result (Belew certainly got plenty of breathing space), at the end of the day few bands work as a total democracy, and there is usually one guy to whom falls the responsibility of making final decisions. It' swirled, in various Crimson incarnations, for over four decades now, so I'd suggest that whatever weaknesses people want to perceive in Fripp's character with such little information, overall it does seek to be working....

BTW, I remember a couple years ago, there was a documentary special on BBC America about Doctor Who, and would you believe, one of the celebrity commentators was none other than Toyah herself. I envisioned the two of them watching Doctor Who together, and then having long winded debates about each episode afterwards. I imagined you either would have Fripp pointing out, in his unique dry fashion, all the plotholes, with Toyah replying, "It's only just a TV show", with Fripp then launching into a longwinded explanation of why that's no excuse for lazy scriptwriting.

Or perhaps it works the other way, since Toyah has indentified herself as a fan, you've got her maybe pointing out plotholes, then Fripp in his unique way, saying "It's just a TV show", and then Toyah locking the bedroom door and making Fripp sleep on the sofa for a week..."How dare you say it's just a TV show?!"

Yeah, I know, I'm a dork,and I have an overactive imagination. (shrug)

That would be true - the overactive imagination, that is; I don't know you well enough to call you a dork....yet

[Kim Olesen]

Trey wasn't in the '08 KC lineup so, if Fripp's quotation is genuine, it wouldn't apply to him. And, honestly, what possible beef would Gunn have with Fripp in the first place? 'You gave me a career--but not a terribly profitable one.'?

Still sure it's Gunn. The frictions between him and Fripp was documented in Fripps diary at the time and Gunn actually left KC after a row with Fripp about backstage guests. I don't think he is taking the very shortlived 08 lineup into account.

[Dave (in MA)]

It's more than just about accents; Peter Gabriel went for the same thing, as did a friend of mine, for a time, because cymbals take up frequencies that often conflict so voices and other instruments, and being so generally loud and splashy, really dominate. I think the idea of pulling back on cymbals in a big way ain't a bad experiment, if only to see what happens to all those other instruments when they're taken out of the mix. Don't get me wrong...I'm far from anti-cymbal (as is clearly true, based on subsequent recordings from Fripp, Gabriel et al)
...
It's not a suggestion that everyone should try...but in some cases it makes sense, and it think it helped give crimson a unique sound when they first emerged with Discipline.

What may have helped drive a then-unique sound for PGIII, Discipline and Face Value probably contributed to no small degree to the 80s gated drum sound.

[bondegezou]

Care to share them since I don't want to pick up the book just for that?

Mainly that he's was a massive sex god. No, really. Huge ladies man in the seventies.

Sorry, but one page with a big photo is not exactly a big article.

Well, a page and a third to be accurate.

at the end of the day few bands work as a total democracy, and there is usually one guy to whom falls the responsibility of making final decisions. It' swirled, in various Crimson incarnations, for over four decades now, so I'd suggest that whatever weaknesses people want to perceive in Fripp's character with such little information, overall it does see[m] to be working....

Many great musicians are eccentric. I think Fripp is just as much an eccentric as, say, Jon Anderson, but the difference is that Fripp has managed his legacy and identity better. Although personally I think Fripp's output in his first decade and a half is way better than the last three decades'... although you can say that about Anderson as well... and Keith Emerson, Greg Lake, Tony Banks &c. &c. &c.

Henry

[unclemeat]

Care to share them since I don't want to pick up the book just for that?

I don't have the book either, and I have read it ten years ago. Can't remember much about it, save for the fact
that Toyah, upon seeing his wardrobe, initially thought that Robert was a drag queen.
And that his nickname in his NYC period used to be The Stud.

The frictions between him and Fripp was documented in Fripp's diary at the time and Gunn actually left KC after a row with Fripp about backstage guests.

cf RF's Diary, 2003-11-16 sqq. At the time, it was merely said, in the GC jargon, that Gunn had "Level 9 concerns" (i.e "letting go of achievement").

[Genital Giant]

Mainly that he's was a massive sex god. No, really. Huge ladies man in the seventies.

This is either Toyah Wilcox trolling the world or Fripp trolling her.

[bondegezou]

This is either Toyah Wilcox trolling the world or Fripp trolling her.

No. Documented by other contemporary sources.

Henry

[Dave (in MA)]

One time I was emailing a person and we were talking about Fripp and his somewhat difficult personality. In the email I said that I don't know how Toyah Wilcox could stand him, etc.. Little did I know that the person I was emailing to was a friend of Fripp's and he forwarded my email, which was never meant for Fripp to see.

That's extremely bad netiquette to say the least, and a breach of trust.

[Jeremy Bender]

I remember reading Wetton saying that he'd thought he was gonna be in Crimson a long time....

Was that before or after he told the Heartless Raging Venal Hypocritical Leader (HRVHL) Fripp that unless they became more successful within a year, he was going to leave to seek out commercial success? I believe Wetton told him this on first leg of the 1974 American tour. Of course, all that became moot when RF had his moment of clarity a few days after the Central Park gig and decided to enroll at the Sherborne school of JG Bennett and other Gurdjieff followers.

I thought Fripp walked out (as opposed to be kicked out) during the final production of Beat, and no one knew if he was going to return or not.

Probably not the best way to break up a band, tell the other three members as they're eating in the hotel restaurant!

he is actually saying that all past members of King Crimson have held resentment or antipathy toward him, and this is the first lineup to include someone who does not.

Let's check in with Bill Rieflen and Jakko Jakszyk after this lineup of King Crimson "ceases to exist".

The thing about Fripp is, he has his own concept of logic and his way of doing things. I remember all the talk back in the 80's about his "Drive to 1981" campaign, followed by his "Slide to 1984" campaign. I recall an interview where Belew said he had no idea what Fripp was talking about with that stuff.

I can't find the article, but he was on tour in Italy in 1973 and the scene around the band was just crazy: promoters bonking 14 year girls in dressing rooms, certain band members (i.e. John Wetton) doing more substances than was advisable, having to stuff all the money they made in their suitcases and clothes lest it be confiscated by the Italian government etc. RF: "Soon after, I started to talk about small, mobile, intelligent units".

I have to give him a lot of credit, he saw which way the wind was blowing in 1974 in the music business. All the optimism and hope of the late 60's had turned sour, it truly had became a business. He knew if King Crimson continued, they probably would have ended up doing the arena circuit, which is something he wasn't interested in.

if he was suggesting that as eccentric as Jamie was, he still wasn't crazy enough to continue with Crimson.

Sorry if you know this already, but Muir started to read The Autobiography of a Yogi (he introducted the same book to Jon Anderson, who got the basic idea for TFTO from a footnote) and he started to fall apart a bit. He'd read some of it and start weeping uncontrollably and so on, it wasn't a drug-related meltdown. He left to go to a monastery in Scotland, where he lived for some time. Of course, he relied on the idiots at EG Management to tell the band, EG lied and said he'd gotten hurt etc. RF didn't know the true reason until Sid Smith's book was written.

RF had a similar experience after "the top of his head blew off" from reading a JG Bennett piece, he apparently barely spoke to the other band members during the making of Red, he said he felt his ego had completely melted away.

[WytchCrypt]

Sorry if you know this already, but Muir started to read The Autobiography of a Yogi (he introducted the same book to Jon Anderson, who got the basic idea for TFTO from a footnote) and he started to fall apart a bit. He'd read some of it and start weeping uncontrollably and so on, it wasn't a drug-related meltdown. He left to go to a monastery in Scotland, where he lived for some time. Of course, he relied on the idiots at EG Management to tell the band, EG lied and said he'd gotten hurt etc. RF didn't know the true reason until Sid Smith's book was written.

Fripp's deception of Muir's real reason for leaving the band shows up in his journal that came with The Young Person's Guide to King Crimson album. He tells the story of Jaime swinging chains and spitting blood but says something along the lines of "Jaime left the band after he inexcusably injured himself onstage".

[Jeremy Bender]

Fripp's deception of Muir's real reason for leaving the band shows up in his journal that came with The Young Person's Guide to King Crimson album.

That was 1975, Sid Smith's book was released in 2002. Fripp had no idea about the real reason Muir left until Sid Smith told him, he had believed the nonsense that his managers told him about Muir being hurt.

[unclemeat]

Muir started to read The Autobiography of a Yogi (he introducted the same book to Jon Anderson, who got the basic idea for TFTO from a footnote) and he started to fall apart a bit.

Irony : that book was a forgery (as was the famous Third Eye book by one T. Lobsang Rampa, actually an English plumber). That's the kind of litterature Fripp, bright mind that he was then, was fond of too (along with Wicca, amulets, oui-ja boards and whatnot) : he's been known to quote, even recently, from some rather daft authors of that ilk : Rodney Collin, Boris Mouravieff... (I would not put J.G. Bennett in that category, though).

[Splicer]

Irony : that book was a forgery

Not 100% true. Parts of the book were edited and things added that were not in the original autobiography. It's safe to say that those parts are "forged". For completeness sake, here is an overview.

[unclemeat]

Thanks, Splicer. I stand corrected (I should have phrased my opening statement as a question).

[WytchCrypt]

That was 1975, Sid Smith's book was released in 2002. Fripp had no idea about the real reason Muir left until Sid Smith told him, he had believed the nonsense that his managers told him about Muir being hurt.

Oops, my comment was worded poorly! I wasn't trying to say that Fripp deceived everyone with his journal entry, I agree with you and have read Syd Smith's book. I was trying to show supporting evidence that Fripp had been deceived and actually believed the record company and recorded that in his journal

[Bucka001]

Fripp says: This is the first King Crimson where at least one member of the band does not hold resentment or active antipathy towards me

In '76, Peter Hammill and Guy Evans were in New York doing a bunch of radio and magazine interviews (all surrounding their one and only U.S. show ever at the Beacon Theater 10/18/76) and Fripp came up during an interview with Fresh Fruit magazine. At the concert the night before, a fan shouted out, "Bring out Fripp!" to which Hammill replied from the stage, "Listen, Fripp's been trying to bring out Fripp for years, and every time he succeeds it's disaster for the world!" Guy and Peter relate that RF had never been able to find a happy situation with any of the Crimson lineups, and that he speaks acrimoniously about former KC members, and they acrimoniously about him! This was back in '76, not long after KC had broken up, so a couple of guys who would have "insider" private info about that stuff (having known Fripp for years and also probably rubbing shoulders with other KC musicians) pretty much verify the fact, as far back as '76. Hammill even says in the interview, "Almost every Crimson has had a lot of acrimony."

[WytchCrypt]

Guy and Peter relate that RF had never been able to find a happy situation with any of the Crimson lineups, and that he speaks acrimoniously about former KC members, and they acrimoniously about him! This was back in '76, not long after KC had broken up, so a couple of guys who would have "insider" private info about that stuff (having known Fripp for years and also probably rubbing shoulders with other KC musicians) pretty much verify the fact, as far back as '76. Hammill even says in the interview, "Almost every Crimson has had a lot of acrimony."

I saw a VH1 "Behind the Music" special about Bad Company a few months ago and I was surprised at how negative Boz spoke about his time in Crimson. He had nothing but nasty things to say about the band that really put him on the map, which I thought was quite ungrateful of him. If it wasn't for Crimson and Fripp teaching Boz how to play bass he never would have gotten the job in Bad Company. They didn't need a vocalist (which was Boz's claim to fame before Crimso) but they hired him as the bass player which lead to the ton of money and global success he enjoyed. I didn't expect him to say how he loved playing with Fripp and Crimso but he should have been more gracious...just another example of the resentment and antipathy RF seems to create around him

[Oreb]

That was 1975, Sid Smith's book was released in 2002. Fripp had no idea about the real reason Muir left until Sid Smith told him, he had believed the nonsense that his managers told him about Muir being hurt.

I have no idea what your source for this is, but the monastery business and Muir's disenchantment with the music industry were well-enough known for them to be cited for his leaving the band in the 1977 edition of the 'Harmony Encyclopaedia of Rock'. Of course Fripp may very well not have read that, but it suggests to me that it was hardly an obscure piece of information.