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Thread: How to Fix the Music Industry

  1. #26
    Oh No! Bass Solo! klothos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Bails View Post

    This is the argument that the article is making - labels should be investing in talent. And promoting that talent, instead of cookie-cutter, Auto-Tune-assisted pop tarts.

    This is the rub here on this forum and a point the article misses:

    You guys are forgetting that networks like Nickelodeon, Hub, and Disney have huge entertainment budgets for teenagers and these are no longer limited to just TV or Music: When Disney or Nick creates a star these days, its because the kid has a balance of (marginal and above) talents that include acting, dancing, martial arts, as wll as vocal/music ability.


    For the young generation and their associated artists, music is only a subset.....Pop Tarts did not enter the music industry on their musical ability alone

  2. #27
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    This is the rub here on this forum and a point the article misses:

    You guys are forgetting that networks like Nickelodeon, Hub, and Disney have huge entertainment budgets for teenagers and these are no longer limited to just TV or Music: When Disney or Nick creates a star these days, its because the kid has a balance of (marginal and above) talents that include acting, dancing, martial arts, as wll as vocal/music ability.


    For the young generation and their associated artists, music is only a subset.....Pop Tarts did not enter the music industry on their musical ability alone
    I don't think the article misses that at all. It's just making the point that teenagers aren't the be-all/end-all of marketing music.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  3. #28
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Yes but the article touches on, but never actually mentions, the demographic boom. By far the largest market these days is late middle age. We're not spending as much on music as we used to, because we grew up but the music industry did not. They're still turning out Pop Tarts. True, the $200 box sets of the holographic 7.1 mix immersion set of DSotM are aimed at us, but where are the new acts? Where is the new artist development targeted at sophisticated listeners who don't buy purses and lunchboxes?

  4. #29
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klothos View Post
    what does the industry have to lose by not trying to adopt these ideas?
    IMO:
    For 30 years Cuneiform Records has:

    1. Targeted adults, not kids.
    2. Embraced complexity.
    3. Improved the technology.
    4. Resisted tired formulas.
    5. Invested in talent and quality.

    so....

    All of those things do not prevent theft or take care of the problem of legal streaming, which doesn't pay an acceptable / sustainable rate.

    THOSE are our issues in terms of surviving, as I see them.
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

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    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  5. #30
    In part, Steve. Those are real threats, no question. But I look at this as a consumer. There is too much product out there, I do not know what all of it is, and unlike the old days of going to a record store, where I could browse the entire store easily, in order to browse now, I have to go to many websites, and I have to know that those websites even exist. I don't have the time- and I have a collection of over 5000 records and CDs I built up over a life time and I have disposable income to purchase music that might interest me. I buy maybe 10 CDs a year now, mostly from Wayside, and a few locally for Barnes and Noble. I do not download much at all, because using the iTunes tore is a pain and I still have that problem of too much product.

    What surprises me is that artists have not figured out how to work on their own I like the model of Felicia Day - an actress who became a geek icon, and who just managed to sell her Geek and Sundry program to a large group that still allows her creativity to develop new works. She did this on her own. So, look at Magma. They use an old model- they have a useless website that is rarely updated, they have little communication with their fans, they miss opportunities to record individual shows and market them to fans, they do not use FB or twitter, or develop their own marketing platform. The Grateful Dead are masters here.
    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    IMO:
    For 30 years Cuneiform Records has:

    1. Targeted adults, not kids.
    2. Embraced complexity.
    3. Improved the technology.
    4. Resisted tired formulas.
    5. Invested in talent and quality.

    so....

    All of those things do not prevent theft or take care of the problem of legal streaming, which doesn't pay an acceptable / sustainable rate.

    THOSE are our issues in terms of surviving, as I see them.
    And you're to be congratulated for sticking to your philosophies, year in and year out. It's why your discography, whether I like all of it or not, is never less than admirable and more often than not is flat-out remarkable.

  7. #32
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkelman View Post
    And you're to be congratulated for sticking to your philosophies, year in and year out. It's why your discography, whether I like all of it or not, is never less than admirable and more often than not is flat-out remarkable.
    Yes, but... with all due respect (and I suspect Steve you wouldn't disagree) the Cuneiform roster is not MAINSTREAM, it is not geared to appeal to Joe Sixpack, it does not sell hundreds of thousands of copies. The original poster's question is, could this be done without playing to the teenyboppers?

  8. #33
    I think it can, but it needs a radical transformation. It has to be marketed differently. Kids no long buy records or albums or whatever we call them. They buy songs. Adults are willing to do more, if you can provide them with something they are interested in. This is sort of why Magma irritates me, financially. They don't market, they don't use any avenue of communication- though Stella Vander was posting on FB for a bit, but more for her son's band than for her own band. Magma has an audience similar, though smaller, than the one Joss Whedon (Buffy, Avengers) has- the fans are rabid fans and will try to obtain everything. So they are missing opportunities like crazy. Why aren't recent shows taped and sold, like the Dead or String Cheese? Instead, they end up on DIME and Stella has to go police what she should be selling. Why is there not a FB presence, or some twitter posts? Email lists? There is a huge backlog, sometimes promised, but never actually released. The last old concert did not even come out on Seventh Records, for Pete's sake.
    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  9. #34
    Adults got a lot of shit to worry about, least of all what their teenage daughters are not wearing to Lollapalooza or whatever.

    You just can't get logical on any of this. It's the natural progression of things. Did Brian Epstein sign the Beatles cuz he new teenage girls would go batty crazy over them? Nope, it just happened. Same with Elvis. Same with everyone smoking dope during the late 60s/ early 70s. There were so many "firsts" with the boomers, the point though is that what they did, what became the "legends" of rock-n-roll, all came naturally, and - for the most part anyway - it wasn't contrived. Everything nowadays is contrived, marketed, analyzed, hedged, tweaked, brokered, fashioned... But hey, the world is a bigger place. MUCH bigger place. We got a lot more money, and even more shit to spend it on.

    Now, everything and anything you want from music is a google search away. Think about that. For those of us that grew up in the 60s/70s, bands were mythical. You may have heard of the name, but finding a lot of music was difficult. Magma in the early 70s? Finding a Faust record in a cut-out bin? Hearing - quite by chance - Wire's Pink Flag, cuz the owner of the shop just so happened to get a promo in that day. I can't even tell you how I'd pour over the JEM Import catalog, dreaming of finding - let alone affording - the music it referenced. I would scour record stores I went to. I made day trips to other cities, just to go to a different record store. When I started travelling for work in the 80s, I would rip out the page with record stores from the Yellow Pages, and plot an extra day, just so I could find new pastures to graze. Yes, I said Yellow Pages. Next I'll say Phonolog. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonolog

    Passion is what drove the music industry. Passion from fans, Passion from artists.

    Everything has a beginning, middle and end. The era of that music we all experienced had nothing but firsts. Now we got D97, Druckfarben and Moetar. It's all good, but it just ain't the same.
    Last edited by strawberrybrick; 08-06-2014 at 10:26 AM. Reason: clarity
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberrybrick View Post
    I made day trips to other cities, just to go to a different record store. When I started travelling for work in the 80s, I would rip out the page with record stores from the Yellow Pages, and plot an extra day, just so I could find new pastures to graze. Yes, I said Yellow Pages. Next I'll say Phonolog. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonolog

    Passion is what drove the music industry. Passion from fans, Passion from artists.
    Man, you're almost as nuts as I am. I used to drive to Tampa, St Petersburg, and Gainesville just to hit the record stores around the colleges there. Once, around 1980, I traveled from Tampa to San Francisco hitting as many stores as I could. Big cities and esp. college towns - they were the best ! I'd always ask them for other stores they could recommend, and got good leads !

    I used to pour over La Discographie Alphabetique Du Rock Francais and dreaming of finding my faves....

    Goldmine was the US bible back then, Record Collector for the euro scene. Mail/vinyl/cassettes from all over the world. And then ..... the Internet was born. The music industry change started. A lot of stores disappeared off the street, and moved to the internet, not going out of business. Now the whole (well, almost) music industry is on the internet. Fans can get just about anything from their band's website if it's run right ! The same is true for music wholesalers. Special box sets etc. for those niche markets might be more valuable than that download down the road.
    Will virtual concerts or virtual touring be next ? Giant Skype concert events ? Or, if a live show, a DVD of the concert you just saw as you leave the concert? Still a lot of opportunities to make $$$ for musicians out there. It's just that the streetcorner musician has moved on to the internet.
    Last edited by tom unbound; 08-06-2014 at 12:15 PM.

  11. #36
    To some degree, but it's not going to get played on the radio unless it's a classic country type 3 hour show. It's down to the demographics. Classic country appeals to those who are 45-50 and above. Not the demographic that is targeted. 17 to 35 is, as always, the choice age group. They are listening to hick hop and Brantley Gilbert, Luke Bryan and Blake Shelton.

    Bill
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    With a fish head and a harpoon
    and a fake beard plastered on her brow.

  12. #37
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom unbound View Post
    Man, you're almost as nuts as I am. I used to drive to Tampa, St Petersburg, and Gainesville just to hit the record stores around the colleges there.
    I used to regularly, like once a month, drive from Seattle to Portland to hit Music Millennium (which is still a great store) and every other month or so go up to Vancouver BC. Those were 3-hour drives, each way. Because I'd exhausted all of Seatte/Tacoma/Everett/Burien/Ballard's great stores (and there used to be several).

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by tom unbound View Post
    Man, you're almost as nuts as I am. I used to drive to Tampa, St Petersburg, and Gainesville just to hit the record stores around the colleges there. Once, around 1980, I traveled from Tampa to San Francisco hitting as many stores as I could. Big cities and esp. college towns - they were the best ! I'd always ask them for other stores they could recommend, and got good leads !
    Tom! I worked at a Spec's in Lakeland at that time. Vinyl Fever in Tampa was my fav, forget the name of the place Orlando, was near the Jai-Lai place...

    People really were nuts about music then. you had to WORK to get what you wanted. Now, there's no work to acquire music. Only money. Not even, really.
    "Always ready with the ray of sunshine"

  14. #39
    So wait, hold on, Magma's commercial problem is MARKETING?

  15. #40
    Studmuffin Scott Bails's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smcfee View Post
    So wait, hold on, Magma's commercial problem is MARKETING?
    Yep. All this time, if they had only marketed themselves correctly, the mainstream would be screaming for this strange band who sings in their own language.
    Music isn't about chops, or even about talent - it's about sound and the way that sound communicates to people. Mike Keneally

  16. #41
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smcfee View Post
    So wait, hold on, Magma's commercial problem is MARKETING?
    Scantily clad pop tarts, singing in Kobaian.

  17. #42
    All kidding aside, yes, I think Magma has a marketing problem. But at the same time, Vander has kept this band going 45 years, out on the fringes. What I am trying to say is, given their newly earned cache, they could be doing so much more and yet they do not. At a time when Mikael Akerfeldt is singing their praises and introducing them to wholly new audiences, why are they not using modern tools to enhance their sales? I get that they are an acquired taste, but they are also seminal in prog, still vital and fairly legendary. There is a lot to build on. They have a ton of past shows available, but never do anything with them. Stella furiously scours youtube and DIME to remove clips, missing the obvious that they could actually sell that material themselves. Vander is 66 and how much longer can he keep on?
    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  18. #43
    Member Zeuhlmate's Avatar
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    Marketing is unfortunately SO important.
    Univers Zero have only 2-5 gigs pr. year !
    I think one of the problems are that artist/musicians have difficulties in targeting both being creative - and doing all the rest. It takes time and ressources.
    And having someone doing this for you requires money.

    But the bands have to realize the problem ... Renato and I are trying to keep Univers Zeros webpage ajour and updated, but we hardly get any info from the band. I dont think they are doing ANY marketing what so ever.

  19. #44
    Then it seems that they are not doing all they can. This is the problem. Times have changed. Bands such as Magma and UZ grew up in a different era. Corollary: I teach. And I have been doing so for 35 years. If I teach now like I did 35 years ago I would be out of a job. I had to change, learn new technology and teaching methodologies so that I am teaching to the learning styles of today's students, not 35 years' ago students. And what I am seeing is that these bands are not changing. They are not using technology like they could. And they are not doing as well as they could. Suffering for your art makes no sense to me any more. You want to survive, you have to adapt and evolve.
    I'm not lazy. I just work so fast I'm always done.

  20. #45
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I suspect a band like Magma or Univers Zero is as much a lifestyle as a musical unit. Changing how you relate to the world may not be easy for these old codgers. They're of the era where a record label did all the marketing.

    They may not feel comfortable self-promoting.

  21. #46
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    PBS Frontline the other night was about social media, and it all made little sense. Teens are working hard to get other people to "Like" stuff about movies so that they themselves can get a little more info about said movie. The example they used was The Hunger Games. And they explored how some guy from one of those vampire shows is more popular than Jesus because of the social media PR firm he uses.

    I'd rather watch a commercial than have to do all that "Liking."

  22. #47
    Highly Evolved Orangutan JKL2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I suspect a band like Magma or Univers Zero is as much a lifestyle as a musical unit. Changing how you relate to the world may not be easy for these old codgers. They're of the era where a record label did all the marketing.

    They may not feel comfortable self-promoting.
    Come on, old French woman - promote Magma!!
    Last edited by JKL2000; 08-07-2014 at 08:45 AM.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    IMO:
    All of those things do not prevent theft or take care of the problem of legal streaming, which doesn't pay an acceptable / sustainable rate.
    ^^

    this IMO is the real problem. the fact that Spotify charges just 10 bucks a month for unlimited streaming access to like 75% of the entire recorded history of music is crazy. I mean as a consumer that's great. But we all know they kick back such a small portion of that back to the bands.
    Critter Jams "album of the week" blog: http://critterjams.wordpress.com

  24. #49
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    It's a completely different world for sure.

    FM radio (CHOM-FM/Montreal) was our conduit to the outside world. They (at the time) were willing to spin new/obscure artists, that eventually created a "word-of-mouth" buzz across the lands = success. I would then develop my purchase lists - and take our quarterly trip into the big city and (with luck) find what we wanted. It was a very organic experience, very satisfying with a strong build up of anticipation and orgasmic release. The advertising aspect of music was limited to the magazines, fanzines, concert promotions in that regard . . . but FM radio carried the course.

    Now - everything's so instant and widespread . . . one can listen to an entire release (or steal) it with minimal effort via the web. The discovery process (for me) is usually initiated via chat rooms with people of like mind. College radio is quite satisfying here in this region (academically rich) - and remains a staple.

    In my position, we study marketing techniques with ISP's (targeted by demographic, racial, ethnic qualifiers), obtain analytic data from Google, Facebook, etc - - - all in efforts to increase recruitment potential for human-subject clinical research trials. I would imagine that many of these efforts could easily be transferred to the music industry (if already not) - - - but many smaller labels/bands simply lack the resources to dive into this deep pool.

    The WWW has really complicated things - and there's no easy solution to satisfy everyone's tastes & methods.

    All food for thought - -

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by strawberrybrick View Post
    Tom! I worked at a Spec's in Lakeland at that time. Vinyl Fever in Tampa was my fav, forget the name of the place Orlando, was near the Jai-Lai place...

    People really were nuts about music then. you had to WORK to get what you wanted. Now, there's no work to acquire music. Only money. Not even, really.
    The place by the jai-lai fronton was Armadillo Records, I used to hang out there a lot in the late 80s early90s. They closed up some time in the early 90s if I remember correctly.

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