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Thread: Kickstarter

  1. #1
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    Kickstarter

    I've been looking through Kickstarter because I got some notifications sent to me about artists I follow and their new kickstarter funding campaigns for their new albums. I'm in on some, but there are tons of great stuff out there that are self-promoted and funded and just won't be available for sale on places like Amazon or through normal channels and such.

    I can see this becoming a compulsion. "What's new", "Oooh, I like this guy/girl/concept", "It's only another $10/15." I can see why artists are doing this more and more. No hand holding by record companies and producers. Artistic freedom. Catering to their fans rather than "the man".

    I applaud their effort and will probably continue to check these out over time and buy some, even though you really don;t know what you are getting until it is distributed. Some actually have preview songs, but others are just "trust me" campaigns.

    Anyone else checking these out?

    Here's some I funded and am psyched about:
    Dave Kerzner:
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...?ref=discovery

    Jon Anderson & Jean Luc Ponty
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...?ref=discovery

    Kenny Loggins
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...?ref=discovery
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  2. #2
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    I think it could very well catch on. In several discussions on PE in the past, crowd funding is stated as a means to 'adapt' to the current state of producing and releasing music.

    I tend to agree, however I see one of the prime impediments to crowd funding gaining traction is an artist's resistance to changing the dynamic of how art is made and the ego hit one can take when some who would go the crowd funding route would come up short and project would be canceled.

    But I do think it's a great way of gauging actual financial interest in someone's work.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  3. #3
    I think it has its advantages and disadvantages (and yes I know its easy to say Im biased as we have a label, but in all honesty I cant and dont want to sign everything and anything) One disadvantage is that the offering is often quite "fiddly" to fulfill or this is how many artists make them. This is ok if an artist has a lot of time on their hands and good organisational ability and not necessarily another 9-5 day job and knows how to get the project done start to finish including coding for digital downloads etc or knows someone who can. It also can take a lot of marketing time and effort which costs, especially if you want covermounts, adverts at all etc , plus costs of sending out for press which can be quite substantial if you do it reasonably well. You will often find as well that a label wont touch it if you have used Kickstarter and have thousands of participants (a large part of the market have already paid) and quite a lot of artists want this as well so that once they've got their money in , they then want labels to pay as well to take on the release and pay out for all the marketing etc and keep the title in production. It often does little for your profile and it can look as if someone else wouldnt invest in you- or you wouldnt invest in yourself. (if you can afford to do so) With many of the smaller guys, I see where they are coming from as many would struggle to get a decent deal. With some of the more well know names looking at what was raised, from my angle Im not quite sure of the point, as advances in this kind of region would have been obtainable, as would a decent deal, without any of the associated costs or fulfillment to deal with. I think some artists looked at the Marillion way and thought that makes total sense, forgetting that Marillion have the lovely Lucy full time, a huge mailing list and distribution networks already signed up, agreed and in place, along with exporters etc . Lots of strong reliable distribution companies are not keen on taking one off titles and some artists make the mistake of thinking they will sell way more just from their website than is actually possible without distribution and export forming part of the sales (and you wont get anything like what you get from a direct sale on the website) for wholesale.

  4. #4
    Member dropforge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    Loggins?! Are his coffers not overflowing?

  5. #5
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    I think crowdfunding is the future. Hopefully somebody will come along and make it easier and higher profile than Kickstarter, becoming the "Amazon of crowdfunding." But I can see the vast majority of specialty music -- and let's be honest, 99% of the music out there sells under 2,000 copies these days -- being done this way in the next 5 years.

  6. #6
    We are just about to sign off on a good album who certainly didn't want to do this, as was said ' just too busy' , I think certain artists will go down this route and some will not. The issue is it's very hard for a new act without a following to go down this route and actually raise enough to make it possible to record, manufacture and market, , whereas a label will take a punt some of the time if it really likes an artist.

  7. #7
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    I think crowdfunding is the future. Hopefully somebody will come along and make it easier and higher profile than Kickstarter, becoming the "Amazon of crowdfunding." But I can see the vast majority of specialty music -- and let's be honest, 99% of the music out there sells under 2,000 copies these days -- being done this way in the next 5 years.
    Unless I am mistaken, Amazon OWNS Kickstarter, so they aleady ARE 'the Amazon of crowdfunding.'

    Vast majority of specialty music being funded this way? I don't think there are enought TRUELY interested and/or generous/motivated fans. But, I guess we'll see....
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  8. #8
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    P.S. What do you imagine will make it 'easier' than kickstarter?

    My experience is that if you don't put a LOT of effort into your campaign, you don't see good results....
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  9. #9
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Unless I am mistaken, Amazon OWNS Kickstarter, so they aleady ARE 'the Amazon of crowdfunding.'
    It looks like payments are processed through Amazon, who take a 3-5% cut for this, but other than that they're independent.

  10. #10
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    It looks like payments are processed through Amazon, who take a 3-5% cut for this, but other than that they're independent.
    Thanks. The payments funded through Amazon led me to believe they OWNED them! My bad!!
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by BobM View Post
    I've been looking through Kickstarter because I got some notifications sent to me about artists I follow and their new kickstarter funding campaigns for their new albums. I'm in on some, but there are tons of great stuff out there that are self-promoted and funded and just won't be available for sale on places like Amazon or through normal channels and such.

    I can see this becoming a compulsion. "What's new", "Oooh, I like this guy/girl/concept", "It's only another $10/15." I can see why artists are doing this more and more. No hand holding by record companies and producers. Artistic freedom. Catering to their fans rather than "the man".

    I applaud their effort and will probably continue to check these out over time and buy some, even though you really don;t know what you are getting until it is distributed. Some actually have preview songs, but others are just "trust me" campaigns.

    Anyone else checking these out?

    Here's some I funded and am psyched about:
    Dave Kerzner:
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...?ref=discovery

    Jon Anderson & Jean Luc Ponty
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...?ref=discovery

    Kenny Loggins
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...?ref=discovery
    Thanks Bob. What's interesting right now is that both Jon/JLP's album and my album are in the top 5 most popular music campaigns on Kickstarter at the moment. That's GREAT for the "PROG" genre relative to everything else that's on there. Maybe we'll see more progrock there. I know Steve Rothery did a nice campaign on Kickstarter for his first solo album. An album I co-produced with Randy McStine (fellow PE'er) called "Lo Fi Resistance - Chalk Lines" that featured members of Porcupine Tree, Brand X and Kings X was partially funded through Kickstarter as well.

    The cool thing about it is exactly what you said. Artistic freedom and a more direct connection... possibly unique items involved or more music than usual in some cases (like mine... although I went way beyond the norm on that and I am a musical slave to my own ambition right now!!!! But, loving it don't worry. ). One thing that's tough is that the artist has to come out and sell it on video. I do my best on that stuff but it IS hard to do (especially if you truly are on a budget... I had to learn Final Cut Pro myself because I can't pay a video crew to do ALL of those videos... it takes so many hours! I'm hoping to raise enough money to make an actual music video or two and even then I'll be pulling favors and getting creative to make it as great as I can for whatever I can pull off).

    I'm not crazy about the KS videos that come off like they're asking/begging for help too much. Are we supposed to believe that this is the ONLY way Kenny Loggins can make a new album? Come on. Granted, I am not poor if I run a sound company (well... I am after I pay everyone else!!!). But, the fact is it costs money to make, manufacture and put out an album so without a label that money has to come from somewhere... pre-selling with crowd-funding can be a GREAT way to do it IMO. But, I don't think the focus shouldn't be asking for "donations". For music personally I think it should be about offering different things that appeal to the potential backers starting with the music at a reasonable price (ie. better deal than they'd get on iTunes, Amazon etc. - if not lower than $10 then more bang for the buck). Then, it can get more deluxe and elaborate all the way up to rare experiences/interaction with the artist. For example, just as an experiment I put a reward that's me writing a custom instrumental piano piece just for the backer that goes for that reward. The composition still belongs to me but I record it just for them and even take a bit of direction from them toward something they like style-wise. (Some artists would never do this but I love improvising on the piano so to me this is something I enjoy doing and it's not an artistic compromise to me... unless they ask me to do a polka version of My Sharona. I draw the line there). That reward costs $1k and 5 people got it. I'd have to sell 500 albums at $10 to get that same amount. It totally helps offset costs. When I think to myself "If I could afford it would I spend a thousand bucks to get an artist I like to write something custom for me?"... yeah I probably would! The key words are "if you can afford it". Some music fans are successful doctors, lawyers, accountants, businessmen etc. and instead of buying another nice watch they can get something like this AND actually support the music they like so it can continue to be made at the production quality standard they like.

    As an artist you have to swallow some pride, roll up your sleeves and get to work on the marketing side (because without a label it's all up to you). But, I think the more it is accepted as a way to purchase independent releases with cool extras I think the more it can actually help keep a certain aspect of the music business alive.
    Last edited by Squids; 07-30-2014 at 08:00 PM.

  12. #12
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Question for the PE membership, with special reference to small indy labels like Esoteric & Cuneiform:

    Would Kickstarter work for a label to finance a release? Maybe one that, on the surface, doesn't look like a guaranteed best seller? A way to gauge interest? Take chances?

  13. #13
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Question for the PE membership, with special reference to small indy labels like Esoteric & Cuneiform:

    Would Kickstarter work for a label to finance a release? Maybe one that, on the surface, doesn't look like a guaranteed best seller? A way to gauge interest? Take chances?
    Who will administer this? The label (I AM SO NOT INTERESTED IN GETTING STUCK WITH THIS JOB ) or the band?

    As I said above, it's a lot of work to run a successful campaign. You can raise a decent amout of money to cover the recording costs and associated costs of making a record (our bands have done this) without in any way meaning that you will sell more than a few hundred, if the few hundred fans pony up. How does that help a label? It's still only a couple of hundred copies sold...
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  14. #14
    Moderator Poisoned Youth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Who will administer this? The label (I AM SO NOT INTERESTED IN GETTING STUCK WITH THIS JOB ) or the band?

    As I said above, it's a lot of work to run a successful campaign. You can raise a decent amout of money to cover the recording costs and associated costs of making a record (our bands have done this) without in any way meaning that you will sell more than a few hundred, if the few hundred fans pony up. How does that help a label? It's still only a couple of hundred copies sold...

    I could see a scenario where some smaller labels might find this appealing, but perhaps more for reissues. It would be good indication if there's actually enough interest to warrant the costs associated with the reissue while essentially having 'pre-orders'.

    I still could not see Cuneiform (or equivalent) doing this except in a very special circumstance for the effort needed in marketing the campaign.
    WANTED: Sig-worthy quote.

  15. #15
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poisoned Youth View Post

    I still could not see Cuneiform (or equivalent) doing this except in a very special circumstance for the effort needed in marketing the campaign.
    I agree!
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  16. #16
    Although I think the JA/JLP thing will happen, I got burned by the JA/Igor Khorozhev CD that never happened and also the JA box set.
    A little reluctant to donate since then.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jot View Post
    Although I think the JA/JLP thing will happen, I got burned by the JA/Igor Khorozhev CD that never happened and also the JA box set.
    A little reluctant to donate since then.
    Was that a case of a project not getting funded (which in the case of Kickstarter means your cc won't be charged) or did you actually lose the money because it never got fulfilled?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisXymphonia View Post
    Was that a case of a project not getting funded (which in the case of Kickstarter means your cc won't be charged) or did you actually lose the money because it never got fulfilled?
    It was prepaid and never got fulfilled.

  19. #19
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jot View Post
    It was prepaid and never got fulfilled.
    Ugh. That's a good way to make sure that the fans run in the opposite direction away from crowdfunding....
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  20. #20
    Member BobM's Avatar
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    As I understand it, if the project doesn't reach its funding goal, then your "donation" is not charged. Of course, if it does reach the goal, then the artist doesn't complete the project and distribute it then I'm not sure what recourse you may have to get your $ back?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    A gentleman is defined as someone who knows how to play the accordion, and doesn't.

  21. #21
    I had a somewhat less-than-terrific experience with a crowdfunded project over the last year. It was NOT a Kickstarter, so the recipient got my $$ regardless of how close he was/wasn't to his goal. Apparently it was more of a "wasn't" close as it took much longer than planned to finally get my purchase (almost a half a year passed).

    In and of itself I don't have an issue with this...sometimes there are delays and that's life. What bugged me was that the recipient became fairly indignant/hostile to those who asked about their purchases, requesting updates...as if THEY had a lot of nerve to expect anything from him. And I actually saw this artist on tour, and SAW the item that I had preordered available for sale, almost 2-3 months before I actually received my own copy. Another friend purchased the same, and HIS copy didn't arrive until 2-3 months after mine.

    Tossing coin to artists is always kind of cool, but sometimes it helps if they have an actual clue of what needs to happen to actually REALIZE and effectively fulfill a campaign.

    To be fair, I've supported other campaigns that worked out fine, so it isn't like ALL of them go to crap. But it isn't the magic bullet for all artists/etc..
    If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
    https://battema.bandcamp.com/

    Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com

  22. #22
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by battema View Post
    I had a somewhat less-than-terrific experience with a crowdfunded project over the last year. It was NOT a Kickstarter, so the recipient got my $$ regardless of how close he was/wasn't to his goal. Apparently it was more of a "wasn't" close as it took much longer than planned to finally get my purchase (almost a half a year passed).

    In and of itself I don't have an issue with this...sometimes there are delays and that's life. What bugged me was that the recipient became fairly indignant/hostile to those who asked about their purchases, requesting updates...as if THEY had a lot of nerve to expect anything from him. And I actually saw this artist on tour, and SAW the item that I had preordered available for sale, almost 2-3 months before I actually received my own copy. Another friend purchased the same, and HIS copy didn't arrive until 2-3 months after mine.

    Tossing coin to artists is always kind of cool, but sometimes it helps if they have an actual clue of what needs to happen to actually REALIZE and effectively fulfill a campaign.

    To be fair, I've supported other campaigns that worked out fine, so it isn't like ALL of them go to crap. But it isn't the magic bullet for all artists/etc..
    Perfect example of a business opportunity for somebody to come in, create some rules and stability, and become the Amazon of crowdfunding.

    Refunding unsuccessful campaigns makes a lot of sense.

  23. #23
    Member Steve F.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcarlberg View Post
    Perfect example of a business opportunity for somebody to come in, create some rules and stability, and become the Amazon of crowdfunding.

    Refunding unsuccessful campaigns makes a lot of sense.
    Robert - that's what Kickstarter IS.

    There are rules. But they can't make the artist send out the goods promptly or even eventually, and if you don't USE Kickstarter (like the artist that John B is talking about) you can't make them do ANYTHING....

    The problem is, you are relying on NON business people (musicians) to get the job done. Some can handle this type of work and some definitely can NOT.

    Maybe this is good, as it lets the fans see what a giant pain in the ass some of these artists actually are, and why labels actually provide a valuable service by being a professional interface between some artist's total flights of fancy and the real world...
    Steve F.

    www.waysidemusic.com
    www.cuneiformrecords.com

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    “Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin

    Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]

    "Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"

    please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    The problem is, you are relying on NON business people (musicians) to get the job done. Some can handle this type of work and some definitely can NOT.
    This, this, and then this for good measure.
    If you're actually reading this then chances are you already have my last album but if NOT and you're curious:
    https://battema.bandcamp.com/

    Also, Ephemeral Sun: it's a thing and we like making things that might be your thing: https://ephemeralsun.bandcamp.com

  25. #25
    Member rcarlberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve F. View Post
    Maybe this is good, as it lets the fans see what a giant pain in the ass some of these artists actually are, and why labels actually provide a valuable service by being a professional interface between some artist's total flights of fancy and the real world...
    Maybe so, maybe so.

    The skillset of being a really creative artist probably doesn't overlap much with the business sense necessary to run a label. It happens, but it's rare.

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