I can think of 2-3 people I have worked with in all of the bands I have have worked with over the last 30 years who could do what I do.Originally Posted by rcarlberg
That's not a lot, considering the number of musicians.
I can think of 2-3 people I have worked with in all of the bands I have have worked with over the last 30 years who could do what I do.
That's not a lot, considering the number of musicians.
Steve F.
www.waysidemusic.com
www.cuneiformrecords.com
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“Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin
Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]
"Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"
please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.
I can think of one or two that could, provided they werent doing the day job and could spare the time to deal with wholesalers, individuals saying wheres my stuff, trotting down the post office etc, etc, I cant think of many that would handle multiple projects at the same time . Steve has put it very well, there are some artists who struggle to get it together at all on a business side of things and I think kickstarter to be frank is the last thing they need, balls it up and you will lose a fair bit of fan base. Works better for artists who do nothing else, have help on hand and are very marketing savvy and understand the process start to finish.
I've been doing it 15 years longer than you, so that accounts for the one extra person on my end...
Steve F.
www.waysidemusic.com
www.cuneiformrecords.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
“Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin
Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]
"Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"
please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.
I would personally never contribute to any of these. There's no way of knowing how any given project will turn out and how good it would be.
I'm pretty confidant that Squids will come through. He is a business man, and has a great rep and following on this forum. No issues there.
Kenny Loggins, yeah it seems strange that he would do this. Maybe he is just checing it out because he wanted to do something privately with these other artists that his label wouldn't understand or fully support. Probably a test for him. Still, I'm sure he has business people handling communication and fulfillment.
Jon Anderson - this one is a long shot because he has made promises before. I can only hope his partner is sincere. Both are big enough artists that have a rep to preserve and probably business people dealing with that side as well.
There are lots of other smaller ventures there that I don't feel confident about. Musicians are flaky (OK, I said it) and many are easily distracted by shiny objects, plus other more material obligations and jobs. I guess this is a test, of sorts, for me also.
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A gentleman is defined as someone who knows how to play the accordion, and doesn't.
Don't compare notes, guys. It would be devastating to find you're counting the same people!I've been doing it 15 years longer than you, so that accounts for the one extra person on my end...
Lol!! I also think some artists think they will get a great deal more than a label may offer them up front, if it works for them and it's all done in a logical way and fulfilled then that's good, if it doesn't fans will blame them personally, not a label, I'm sure Squids will be fine, he naturally has business acumen I'm sure. Someone else mentioned about using it to gauge for reissues, it's not really possible as a label to do this if licensing in from elsewhere be it another label or an artist direct deal because you need the licence in place before you can do anything with a release and then you are contractually obliged to put out, so a bit pointless using kick starter just to gauge after you have already done the deal, , also kickstarter is not free, I can't remember the actual percentage you pay out for the campaign, but if I remember correctly it was around 6 to 9 %. , if you factor this in along with doing all the manufacturing, paying for promo out, cover mounts, any adverts, mastering, artwork etc , what seems a reasonable amount can easily be not as much as you think.
Good points Esoteric and BobM. I appreciate your confidence in my campaign as well. I'm doing my best and I take it all seriously. Crowd-funding is a sign of hope that certain work can see the light of day without artistic compromise and without having to get a record deal. I can tell you I was actually offered a deal from more than one label to do this album. I'm not against record deals but unless you're in the position to be offered what you really need to be able to do ALL you want to do AND earn a living from it (that's a tall order though, most of us Proggers have another job of some kind too) AND at least have enough come in at the end of the day to TOUR and do the NEXT release (which also requires a LOT of money) then sometimes the artist is better off doing it more direct if they at least have enough of a following to give the whole thing essentially a "kick start".
That's how I view Kickstarter. If the campaign is successful it gets you LAUNCHED and into orbit. From there you do still have to do all those things Esoteric mentioned... and if you include advertising and PR you are entering a world of pain! (Sorry I went Big Lebowski for a second). You are entering a world of ENDLESS expenses potentially unless you are careful. That to me is still the biggest challenge for artists. How do they get the exposure to the potential music appreciators who are meant to hear it? It's a shame sites like Spotify and Pandora can't be more generous to the artists in their royalties so that could be more appealing... but, something like that IS actually a decent way to get exposure to people that like something similar. Granted that's only after your album is finished and released. Getting exposure while you're doing your Kickstarter campaign is a whole other story. But, the longer you've been at it the more fans you probably have and word gets around one way or another (Facebook, Twitter, Groups, Forums... if they care enough to talk about you vs. yet another Yes thread!!! haha... and ironically even the Ex-Yes-frontman is in THIS topic!!!!! There is NO ESCAPING THE YES ON PE!!!!!! Muahahaha).
Anyway, I think you guys are right. You do have to be confident in the artist you're backing. Once you have success with them you can trust them that much more the next time. Everyone is different and I think even the way the campaign is presented and the effort put into it gives you an idea of what to expect. If it looks lazy then it probably will be a somewhat "flaky" effort. If it looks solid and fun then it probably will be what you hope it would be which is something better than you'd normally be able to get... and really feel more like you're part of it as opposed to someone just out there buying it from a store and the artist never knowing. For me, I get a kick out of reading the feedback and seeing who is getting into this. I love it when I recognize a backer on there from either PE or Facebook or friends from different times of my life. There's so much more of a direct connection between the artist and listeners. That might freak some people out who are used to the separation but to me I think it's PROG-RESS. The world is getting smaller and closer. Pangea! Haha. (that has to be the name of some Prog band out there...)
Squids-I am all in! Made my pledge the other day and cannot wait for the release. I am so pleased to see that you have already surpassed your goal. Prog On!
Bada-BAM!
Steve F.
www.waysidemusic.com
www.cuneiformrecords.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
“Remember, if it doesn't say "Cuneiform," it's not prog!” - THE Jed Levin
Any time any one speaks to me about any musical project, the one absolute given is "it will not make big money". [tip of the hat to HK]
"Death to false 'support the scene' prog!"
please add 'imo' wherever you like, to avoid offending those easily offended.
How many bands have asked for $20k, then recorded the album on their cousin's Mac in his basement, and used the remaining $18,000 for hookers and coke?
Thanks man! I appreciate that.
Oh by the way, there IS something a little odd about Kickstarter though and important to know for anyone thinking about doing a campaign on there. Backers can only pledge once per account. So, that means if you have different rewards the the same backer might want they'd have to make a new account each time just to get the other reward. That's why artists have to do every possible combination of bundles instead of letting people just pick things a la carte. Some campaigns have each tier of their rewards include everything previous plus something more which is a little easier to follow... but might be hit and miss in terms of exactly what you want.
A friend of mine is doing an album campaign on pledgemusic.com and she said that people ARE able to buy a la carte items there like a shop and she's had some backers buy 4 different things (and she's really artsy so she has all sorts of funky swag and stuff). Also, that site doesn't show the amount raised which actually is good because people can sometimes see an amount you raised and make assumptions. But, again, as Esoteric pointed out, that money can get eaten up so fast if you're serious about getting your album out in the world... it's just that people don't all know that! On pledgemusic.com it just shows that you've hit the goal without knowing what the amount is. I like that. BUT... Kickstarter is a big crowd-funding site and people are perhaps more confident ordering there (with Amazon). Indiegogo is another cool one. There's a bunch of them and I think it's still early days.
One thing though that I'd like to see, at least for music releases, is more of a pre-order/special package/experience purchase thing where the backers really get something of value to them on top of the fun in being part of the project. That seems better than this idea of "donating" to the "please help us" musicians of the world. I don't like it as a "charity" unless it's REALLY to help those in need. But, if it's an EXCHANGE then that's not a donation. That's a transaction and this platform offers an excuse to go overboard on the esoteric offers or exclusive extras that you might enjoy buying vs. the other things we pay money for that aren't as much fun... like traffic tickets, utility bills, meals at restaurants, gas for your car, various fees that seem to get attached to everything...
Shoot, most of the bands on Steve's roster, $18K wouldn't cover the hookers & blow for a single WEEKEND.
some very pertinent points Dave and you are the kind of artist I think it can work well for. I think Steve and myself contribute to the site essentially because we do give a sh**. I dont want to see fans duped by some and nor do I want all musicians to think its an easy way of raising lots of money without actually having thought it through properly--its hard to do it well, even with a bit of a name and even harder to fulfill some quite complicated offerings!
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/03/...ects-do-wrong/
and heres some good info on what "not" to do.
That's really dumb. More evidence of a poorly designed interface.
I haven't looked into too many campaigns, but another head-scratcher is the variety of "rewards" some campaigns offer. It seems like the project coordinator will spend more time administering the rewards than creating the project. Most contributors, I'd wager to guess, are primarily interested in the end product itself, and probably the reward that would mean the most would be to have their name mentioned on it. Maybe the point-size on the type should be linked to the contribution level
"Pledge $500,000 and get all of the above PLUS breakfast in bed with your favorite balding divorced prog star keyboardist - includes matching robes and slippers. (Happy ending not included; please enquire for price)."That's really dumb. More evidence of a poorly designed interface.
I haven't looked into too many campaigns, but another head-scratcher is the variety of "rewards" some campaigns offer. It seems like the project coordinator will spend more time administering the rewards than creating the project. Most contributors, I'd wager to guess, are primarily interested in the end product itself, and probably the reward that would mean the most would be to have their name mentioned on it. Maybe the point-size on the type should be linked to the contribution level
Squids - I'm really enjoying all the personal "as you go" updates that I receive after I made my pledge. It's a lot of fun following your progress and seeing what you are doing personally in the background. I think that truly makes the people who pledge feel special. I don't doubt that it's a lot of work, but I absolutely do appreciate it.
BTW - I know "One White Duck = Nothing at All" but what's with the dove? Hey, maybe you can name him Jethro.
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A gentleman is defined as someone who knows how to play the accordion, and doesn't.
Crowd-funding is definitely good for some projects. However, I feel that higher profile musicians doing such a thing is in poor taste.
In August of 2011, while in rehearsals for a Tears For Fears tour, Roland Orzabal and I were discussing the future for TFF with regards to recording new material. He said Curt (Smith) had suggested they go the route of crowd-funding for their next release and Roland asked what I thought of that. I told him that I felt it would cheapen the TFF brand. I noted that Curt is consistently posting (Twitter/FaceBook/website) about his new 'toys' that he buys such as expensive cars, trips overseas, latest computer/iGadgets, etc. To then ask fans to support the making of a new album would seem ridiculous. I said that it sends a mixed message; "I want to make a new album, but I want fans to fund it even though I have enough of my own money to do so." I told Roland that if you believe in the material and believe in your fans, then put it out on your own and cover all costs between the two of them. We discussed it further and in more detail. He decided crowd-funding wasn't the right choice at the time. Since then, they have secured a record deal (announcing details soon) and are about to record and tour.
For less established bands/musicians, it is good, as I previously stated. Some fans want to support as much as they can and some fans truly want all the perks and acknowledgments that they can buy. As has been addressed here in this thread, you sometimes get mixed results within the campaign due to lazy, unmotivated (or non-business-minded) musicians running their crowd-funding. The other extreme is when you get a full-blown narcissist who abuses the promotion machine from atop their high horse. Both are valuable for me, as they show how not to run a crowd-funding campaign and I have a few examples of those campaigns that I show to my clients.
Even if artists do have the money to do it on their own it's still advantageous for them to have label backing. So, one way or another that funding is still needed it's perhaps just more a matter of how it looks.
Personally, I think it's all in how the campaign is presented. If it's an artist who is known for buying fancy cars and has had tons of hits saying "please help us this is the only way we can make a record" there's something a little off about that. On the other hand, if they express that they want to exercise more artistic freedom and do something new without a label and they offer good value to their potential backers in the form of an elaborate music pre-sales and/or VIP experience then it can make a lot of sense. 'Toad The Wet Sprocket' did their latest album via Kickstarter and I think it worked out well for both them and their fans who wanted another record from them. They've had hits. But, you can imagine perhaps why they don't have a record deal right now and/or that they'd want to just make the album on their own this way.
In my opinion, the biggest reason crowd-funding is important these days for any artist that wants to go the independent route, no matter how established they are, is because the business itself is more vulnerable with people downloading and streaming it for free. Record labels have to take a bigger chance to pay for the recording, manufacturing and distribution today more than ever and that probably means even less artists are getting signed and/or the funding and push they'd need to reach their ideal potential audience. Passionate fans who want to support the artist by buying deluxe versions, swag and extras is a great way to cover costs and minimize the risk IMO.
I would feel I "owed" something to the people who donated, and would constantly worry about whether or not they were going to like the result, which would completely disrupt and confuse my whole way of working. I do know a couple of people who have done "crowdfunded" campaigns (apparently) successfully, but I couldn't do it. I am commenting on this thread because over the past year or two several people have asked my why I hadn't tried it.
BD
www.bdrak.com
That's an interesting angle that hasn't been mentioned before. Instead of having one boss -- yourself -- the crowdfunding recipient has hundreds. Additional pressure to produce something that pleases the funders, rather than yourself.
Not much different of course from the commercial pressure all professional musicians must feel from time to time, particularly if a release becomes unexpectedly a hit and the pressure is on to create Another Big Hit.
That's why I think it's important to have something for people to listen to so they get an idea of what to expect. Same as if you were promoting the pre-order of an album with a teaser which is commonly done. There's still the risk that people aren't going to like it but I think that the listeners who purchase by pledging on crowd-funding sites are wanting more than just the music. It's the whole interaction and experience too. Can be fun, interesting and entertaining potentially. But, yeah it's not for everybody. Not for every artist and not for every music buyer. However, I can see certain music fans have backed multiple projects and also certain artists repeatedly going to Kickstarter and similar CF sites as part of how they get their projects funded and off the ground.
I am not a fan of the kickstarter trend. I find it often offensive when touring headlining bands come back and want the fans to pay for their acoustic solo guitar album when the band owns a studio. And then when you ask the artist why they need the money they erase your comment.
Another thing...if you have already recorded and finished the album...Why do you need my
money?
As a producer and studioowner i have felt very impressed by artists who sort out the finances themselves. Bankloans or loans from the family or all the earnings from the last tour or album. Shows determination and belief in your art.
//Mattias
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