Genesis' Turn It On Again tour: did they tune down, or relearn in new keys?

[Bbernardini]

I've looked around for info on this before, but couldn't find any good answers. For all the stuff they had to bring down because of Phil's voice, did they just tune down, or relearn all the songs in the new keys? Seems to me it would have been much easier on Tony to just tune down, but who knows?

[ca1ore]

Funny, just listening to Live Over Europe when I saw your post. I think they lowered keys - at least that's what it sounds like. Live album does sound really good though, even if one might have wished for a somewhat less predictable setlist. Much better sound than The Way We Walk where CTs flabby sounding drum drives me nuts.

[Bbernardini]

Oh, they definitely lowered the keys. The question is, did they relearn everything in the new keys, or just tune everything down so they could play them (physically) they way they had in years previous?

[jkleban]

My belief is that Tony Banks played the same keyboard parts, just had everything tuned down via MIDI... Where applicable, I think Mike and the guitars were played down to the right key, at times, tuned down where necessary... (Like OPEN E stuff, needs to be tuned down) but stuff in A or Bb can be played on guitars down a key or two with little effort.

But not sure about the gutiars but pretty sure about T Banks keyboard parts.

Jim

[Arkangel3]

Tony would more than likely try and re-learn the parts in new keys. Any self-respecting keyboardist would...transpose comes in VERY handy when you're jamming or playing with just a guitar player (who will be your best friend rather than have THEM tune down or re-learn songs in a new key) with whom you never played with before. It's much much easier to transpose. And if the parts are particularly complex (like most Genesis keyboard parts are), I think in this instance Tony might have transposed rather than re-learn the parts simply because he was used to playing them one way. The disadvantage about transpose is some of the other chords you think would follow suit simply don't and you have to re-learn those parts as well (unless you transpose on the fly).

My wife always says transposing is cheating (she of the pure piano playing school); I'm of the camp that if it works and it helps you make music, then fine...no problem. My own personal preference is transpose on the harder stuff and just re-learn the easier stuff...but keep the methodology consistent in the same song. I guess it's musicians call. I'd be interested to hear from the absolute pros out there (Geoff Downes, Andy Tillison, Erik Norlander) on PE to see what they like to do when confronted with the transpose or re-learn material. I've seen Geoff do both on various DVDs and I've seen Andy and Erik just have everybody play in the original keys on their DVDs...but once again, that's just what I've seen. I have no idea what other video out there with those guys doing one methodology or the other

[trurl]

Well, I certainly don't count among the absolute pros *lol* But...

I HATE transposing. It is a matter of pride, maybe. But a lot of parts, especially in our music and I'm sure, Tony's, just fall on keys in such a way that unless you have days and months to retrain your muscle memory there's really no option. Especially pieces you've been playing for 35 years or more. Now, songs that hadn't been played in ages that you're basically relearning from the ground up might be a different animal. Of course, the best answer is to tell your singer to man the f**k up and sing in the right key *lol*

We did have a song that had a MiniMoog solo in e-flat. We all detuned when we recorded it. When we went to play it live we all went WTF!!!?? and quickly realized that it worked fine in E so problem solved, we always just play that part in E. Now the cd sounds funny when I hear it.

[LeFrog]

I remember reading something about this in an interview at the time, but unfortunately I wouldn't be able to find the reference now.
From memory, I think Tony said he didn't transpose except for the really easy bits, for the reasons mentioned by trurl in the previous post. What I clearly remember is that they were all amazed at Daryl Stuermer who transposed and relearned all his parts in the new keys.

[Prog Lives]

Some of Tony's two hand cross over parts like the opening to TLLDOB aren't as readily transposable due to required hand position. Here, he's black keys right hand and white keys left hand but the two hands are directly on top of each other. If this is shifted a half step (for example) it wouldn't be a clean black/white position. Maybe I should have tried it before posting though.

[Dean Watson]

No, I hear ya, having learned a bit of that opening I can tell you it would be quite difficult transposed down a halfstep because the left hand moved over top of the right is looking for easy access to the notes it has to play, and the black keys - being higher, provide that easier access. That being said, of course, depending on how good you are, anything is possible.

[Prog Lives]

I take it back, I just tried it. Ebmin as the right hand and d/f as the toggle its ok hand position. When EB Maj and Db/f as the toggle its a bit more awkward because the right wrist hits the left index knuckle but its doable.

[AncientChord]

Don't know if they lowered the keys, but I also don't care. I was at the very last show...the Hollywood Bowl. I went for the sake of nostalgia, and because it might have been the last time seeing Phil, Tony and Mike play on stage together, which in hindsight now seems to have been a good idea. IMO they still sounded great, even Phil's drumming, although we later learned that he was in a great deal of pain. But highly dissatisfying was the fact, as PapaJ quoted, that the prog material was buried in several nostalgia medley sets. Bring on the Steve Hackett Genesis Revisited World Tour. I'm highly confident the prog Genesis fans will finally have their say, and their day! :good

[Bigpicturekeys]

Usually this is done to assist an aging voice and not put strain on it. My bet it was done to compensate Phil. Just my opinion..

[Sean]

Absolutely, there is no good reason to do it but for a vocalist. Unless you are just bored.

[bRETT]

Live album does sound really good though, even if one might have wished for a somewhat less predictable setlist. .

I was pretty happy with the setlist on that tour-- there was no way they could have dropped the pop hits. But with two long medleys and a couple very nice surprises (Carpet Crawlers and Ripples), it seemed to honor Genesis' greatest era far more than anticipated.

[mozo-pg]

I was pretty happy with the setlist on that tour-- there was no way they could have dropped the pop hits. But with two long medleys and a couple very nice surprises (Carpet Crawlers and Ripples), it seemed to honor Genesis' greatest era far more than anticipated.

I have a different view. I could not sit through Hold My Heart and a huge array of mediocre pop music. There was SOME oldies but they were largely played devoid of passion and urgency. The only song I liked, after dropping $150 on a seat, was Ripples. If I could have my time and money back, I'd take it. They should have toured with Steve and done a real classic setlist (my preference although not part of the marketing $$$ machine).

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

Well, I was there, and I remember trying to look for excessive re-tuning - didn't see any, so my assumption has always been that they simply transposed where necessary. Quite frankly I don't know which is more of a hassle - learning stuff in new keys or constantly retuning your instrument on stage - I'd choose the former if I could.

[80s were ok]

I have a different view. I could not sit through Hold My Heart and a huge array of mediocre pop music. There was SOME oldies but they were largely played devoid of passion and urgency. The only song I liked, after dropping $150 on a seat, was Ripples. If I could have my time and money back, I'd take it. They should have toured with Steve and done a real classic setlist (my preference although not part of the marketing $$$ machine).

the set list was pretty much 50/50, 70's/very early 80's genesis and 80's/90's. You really couldn't ask for a better set list unless you were one of those people who would only be happy if they played Gabriel material which of course is unrealistic. Oh and "Hold on My Heart" is actually a pretty darn good song.

[jkleban]

I mention Tony playing the same keyboard parts on a tuned down MIDI keyboard because if you watch some of the videos from the last reunion tour, you can see him playing the parts in the right key but the song(s) are a half or whole step lower. This doesn't mean all songs were that way but at least some of them were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4-SzlN1Gyc

Please, Watch "In the Cage" about 25 minutes into the video... the guitars look like they are playing in C#, Tony is definitely playing in Eb (watch the video of the quick clips of the synth solo at 28 minutes) which is the original key and fingering of the solo in the song (you muso's who like to play classic Genesis will notice the fingering). I sorta rest of my case.

I see another PROGGIE in CARY... in Raleigh here.

Jim

[Tangram]

Tony tuned it down. On the bonus material on When in Rome, it was mentioned.

[Paulrus]

Quite frankly I don't know which is more of a hassle - learning stuff in new keys or constantly retuning your instrument on stage
Jacob, it was my assumption that these guys just have specially de-tuned instruments on stage for the songs they're needed for, like Geddy Lee does whenever he pulls out the red Jazz bass for "2112". I couldn't possibly imagine them going "Shit, stall for a while Phil -- I'm not done re-tuning!" :)

[trurl]

Jacob, it was my assumption that these guys just have specially de-tuned instruments on stage for the songs they're needed for, like Geddy Lee does whenever he pulls out the red Jazz bass for "2112". I couldn't possibly imagine them going "Shit, stall for a while Phil -- I'm not done re-tuning!" :)

Yeah, guitar players would reach for a new guitar and Tony would just hit a button to retune and repatch his whole rig so it would happen fast. Also, most bands tend to put their drop tune songs together in blocks so there isn't a ton of guitar swapping.

[Scott Bails]

Oh and "Hold on My Heart" is actually a pretty darn good song.

You're not going to get a whole lot of agreement on this here.

Personally, I think it's one of their absolute worst.

[80s were ok]

You're not going to get a whole lot of agreement on this here.

Personally, I think it's one of their absolute worst.not here, but other places...actually has a nice chord change in there