View Full Version : Beware of Mr. Baker
freddo7
11-29-2012, 10:35 AM
Has anybody seen this movie? It got a good review in the The New York Times.
roylayer
11-29-2012, 10:55 AM
It is excellent. Ginger Baker has led a truly amazing life. I was totally clueless about him and how great of a drummer he really is. He is sure a wild man! The movie includes plenty of interviews with famous friends like Clapton or Winwood. Highly recommended.
freddo7
11-29-2012, 11:43 AM
Cool. Thanks.
Zeuhlmate
11-29-2012, 12:17 PM
I saw it in a cinema. Highly recommended!
He is a startling personality, with an interesting life on several continents.
I believe you can find a way to see it online via youtube.
vacuumtube1954
12-01-2012, 06:06 AM
Sounds great. Is this movie on dvd ?
rheayes
12-01-2012, 08:59 AM
I saw it as part of the St. Louis International Film Festival a couple weeks ago. Personally, I never really got into Cream. I am a big fan of Steve Winwood, and he's in the documentary. This is what I wrote about it on Facebook, in response to someone asking what I thought of it.
<Spoilers>
The subject matter was interesting, but the technical aspects of the film weren't great. Things like trying to decipher thick accents that weren't loud enough with a drum solo going on simultaneously as part of the soundtrack. It seemed like most of what Ginger added were rude or funny comments, and the other people interviewed told more of the story - Clapton, Bruce, Winwood, fans like Neil Peart, ex-wives and kids.
One of the saddest parts was when Baker said that Clapton was his closest, best friend. The next scene was Clapton saying he only knows Baker from working with him under certain circumstances and that the documentary-maker probably knows him better. His kids, talking matter-of-factly about what a lousy father he was, was hard to watch too.
No Pride
06-05-2014, 12:40 PM
It's on Netflix streaming now. I watched it the other night and thought it was fascinating! He's obviously a severely flawed human with a history of despicable behavior, but I felt he has some redeeming qualities too; just a very complex character. And what an interesting life he's had! I liked the film more than I expected to. Definitely worth checking out!
(edit) When I dug up this thread, I had no idea which forum it would land on. Feel free to move it if necessary, moderators.
arabicadabra
06-05-2014, 12:45 PM
His saying whatever he feels like in the moment is exciting - but when he says mean stuff about his son Kofi's drumming just cuz he's moving away - I guess every statement has its price. Loved the film, though.
Wounded Land
06-05-2014, 12:52 PM
It is definitely worth watching, but I found it to be extremely depressing. Baker is not a happy man. The contrast between his take on his relationship with Clapton and Clapton's own perception alone is heartbreaking.
I definitely came away from it with a greater appreciation for him as a drummer, though.
NeonKnight
06-05-2014, 12:57 PM
I just saw it on Netflix also.
A lot of interesting parts, including the rather low regard Baker had for Bonham and Moon as drummers. He certainly set up a template for those two as the stereotypical drummer with most of their screws loose. What an actual wildman!
I was totally clueless about his love/hate relationship with Jack Bruce, which the film reveals was probably the doom of Cream. Lars Ulrich with the apt observation of Cream's two short years together as a band and their awesome output and influence, "Our last tour was longer then they were together."
Another surprising insight was Clapton was not involved with Baker's arrival in Blind Faith. In fact Clapton was really not very pleased to be back in a group with the lunatic Ginger in it at all. No surprise that band did not last either....
trurl
06-05-2014, 01:00 PM
I enjoyed it. Interesting stuff.
Mister Triscuits
06-05-2014, 01:00 PM
A great musician, but what an awful, nasty, angry man he is. Very worthwhile movie with some brilliant clips. I wasn't too crazy about the sequences where the filmmaker filled in with cartoons, although the one of Baker and Bruce brutally screaming at each other was pretty effective. Unless I missed it, they skipped over a few bits of Baker's career, like his stint in Hawkwind and the BBM project (although they showed the cover image of Baker with wings). And Johnny Rotten appeared, but I don't recall any actual mention of Baker working with PIL.
No Pride
06-05-2014, 01:01 PM
His saying whatever he feels like in the moment is exciting - but when he says mean stuff about his son Kofi's drumming just cuz he's moving away - I guess every statement has its price.
Yeah, that was pathetic; especially because you could tell Kofi was starved for his dad's love and respect. And... he's a really good drummer too; he's on (at least) one of the Ohm albums (never heard the third one) and he sounded great; maybe there's some jealousy on Ginger's part, who knows?!
I definitely came away from it with a greater appreciation for him as a drummer, though.
As did I.
No Pride
06-05-2014, 01:11 PM
I was totally clueless about his love/hate relationship with Jack Bruce, which the film reveals was probably the doom of Cream.
That I already knew about. It was established before Cream began. Imagine Ginger's disappointment when Eric agreed to be in Cream, but only if Jack, his archrival was the bass player. I heard a story quite a while back... Ginger had a way of bouncing a stick off the snare so it would go flying and his aim was dead accurate. He'd shoot them at Jack's head. One time too many, Jack jumped over the drumset and slugged Ginger... in the middle of a concert! But apparently, it was one of a series of physical altercations between the two. The band was doomed from the start.
mogrooves
06-05-2014, 01:28 PM
Clapton often spoke of resenting getting caught in the middle of these guys and always having to mediate their disputes. Goodbye Cream.
jupiter0rjapan
06-05-2014, 01:44 PM
It was great film. There was a ton of footage of him playing live that I would love to see in whole, and the doc about his trip through Africa would be cool to see as well.
I have a feeling that Ginger's harsh words to his son was a way of severing his connection to him, being in his own twisted mind a way to toughen up his son so he can move on without him. It is pretty fucked up, but not unusual for people who were fucked up by the loss of their own parents.
rcarlberg
06-05-2014, 01:55 PM
and the doc about his trip through Africa would be cool to see as well.For $6 it can be yours (http://www.amazon.com/Ginger-Baker-Africa/dp/B000H7JCC8/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1401990891&sr=1-1&keywords=ginger+baker+in+africa). I have a copy.
arturs
06-05-2014, 02:25 PM
Yeah, that was pathetic; especially because you could tell Kofi was starved for his dad's love and respect. And... he's a really good drummer too; he's on (at least) one of the Ohm albums (never heard the third one) and he sounded great; maybe there's some jealousy on Ginger's part, who knows?!
Yes Kofi played with Ohm for a few years. I saw him several times in LA with the group and they/he were great. Once I sat down next to a beautiful woman in the front row who was there alone (obviously a musician's girlfriend...). We started talking and she was Kofi's fiancee. He came over and we chatted throughout the break. At one point I told him how much I liked his dad's drumming and made some joke like "it is in your genes". He and fiancee both looked down and said nothing. So there was something going on already then... I was kicking myself for bringing that one up, given that I did know a little bit of Ginger's rep...
Zeuhlmate
06-05-2014, 02:38 PM
Kofi also played great with Hellborg & Shawn Lane. Very different style.
I have great respect for Gingers drumming, nobody really plays like that. But sometimes he is very sloppy - Listen to World of Pain on Disraeli Gears!
I had heard that tune a million times and my system was completely adjusted to the drumming. Nothing wrong with that - untill I played it to a guy who to my surprise didnt knew Cream.
And he immidiately said who is the clown on drums, why didnt they retake it... first I objected, but though it still doesnt bother me, he was right.
Clapton often spoke of resenting getting caught in the middle of these guys and always having to mediate their disputes. Goodbye Cream.
The history of Bruce and Baker even before Cream was extraordinary, with a physical confrontation between the two whilst both were in The Graham Bond Organisation.
I haven't seen the film but the thing about Baker considering Clapton a close friend and Clapton being rather cooler was talked about a lot. I've seen the 'Classic Artists' DVD and Baker sounds off at everyone except Clapton...Jack Bruce gets a right old savaging about songwriting credits, loud playing etc.
JeffCarney
06-05-2014, 03:07 PM
Unless I missed it, they skipped over a few bits of Baker's career, like his stint in Hawkwind
This was addressed in the Q&A with Baker and the director when the film was released.
Baker had no respect for Hawkwind and they decided to skip over that period.
The director also reported that he didn't much care for Hawkwind's music. Why this would be mentioned or relevant to a director trying to truly cover a musician's life, I have no idea.
RE; Baker, Hawkwind, BBM. On UK music journalist Dave Ling's always entertaining diary website, there's a selection of infamous quotes made by rock stars. Scroll down this page to find some of Baker's colourful comments on Hawkwind, other drummers and Gary Moore.
http://www.daveling.co.uk/quotes.htm
trurl
06-05-2014, 03:36 PM
“The music that I did with Metallica is awe-inspiring. It’s maybe the best thing done by anyone, ever.
It could create another planetary system. I’m not joking, and I’m not being egotistical.”
Lou Reed
Sorry, ot but how could anyone not share that.
izz_brian
06-05-2014, 03:41 PM
I think the healthy way to handle being the subject of a Ginger Baker rant is to take it as an honor. It's akin to being singled out by Don Rickles...you know he's going to rip you a new one, but it's ultimately harmless and almost always hysterical. Ginger Baker is classic rock's premier insult comic.
Mister Triscuits
06-05-2014, 04:02 PM
It's akin to being singled out by Don Rickles...you know he's going to rip you a new one, but it's ultimately harmless
Except that Don Rickles doesn't usually hit you in the face with a cane!
izz_brian
06-05-2014, 04:45 PM
Except that Don Rickles doesn't usually hit you in the face with a cane!
LOL Yes...that would definitely be the exception to the rule, there. Remind me to never make a documentary featuring Ginger Baker.
Brian Griffin
06-06-2014, 09:12 AM
I'm tempted to start a "Beware of Miss Baker" thread, as it is by far, the weakest PFM album
BG
martiprog
06-06-2014, 10:14 AM
Except that Don Rickles doesn't usually hit you in the face with a cane!
Or pull a knife on you like Ginger did to Jack Bruce!
aith01
06-06-2014, 10:52 AM
“The music that I did with Metallica is awe-inspiring. It’s maybe the best thing done by anyone, ever.
It could create another planetary system. I’m not joking, and I’m not being egotistical.”
Lou Reed
Sorry, ot but how could anyone not share that.
Saw that before somewhere, or a snippet of it, but I had forgotten just how insane it sounded. :D
Still a shame Lou Reed has died, but I don't think I can ever forgive his rendition of Peter Gabriel's Solisbury Hill. Bleargh!
rcarlberg
06-06-2014, 11:34 AM
His live DVD of his great album "Berlin" was also pretty unforgivable.
No Pride
06-06-2014, 12:08 PM
Yes Kofi played with Ohm for a few years. I saw him several times in LA with the group and they/he were great. Once I sat down next to a beautiful woman in the front row who was there alone (obviously a musician's girlfriend...). We started talking and she was Kofi's fiancee. He came over and we chatted throughout the break. At one point I told him how much I liked his dad's drumming and made some joke like "it is in your genes". He and fiancee both looked down and said nothing. So there was something going on already then... I was kicking myself for bringing that one up, given that I did know a little bit of Ginger's rep...
Sad...
gpeccary
06-09-2014, 02:02 PM
I saw the film. I have no position on his place in rock drumming history, I honestly cant speak to that. He was never in my list of favorite drummers. I've heard things about him. The film removed all doubt in my mind, and can hardly leave doubt in anyone else's mind watching this trainwreck of a human, this guy is a colossal dick. An abusive, twisted human. Its not bad enough to treat everyone around him with nastiness and abuse, but to destroy his own child with the same disregard?
Comparing him to Don Rickles is way off imo. His shtick was comedy, there absolutely NOTHING in Bakers repertoire that is even remotely similar to comedy.
Other than that, I enjoyed the film....
Guitarplyrjvb
06-09-2014, 02:30 PM
^^^ agreed! The film is pretty amateurish, too with all of that pre-school animation. Do I really need another opinion by the blowhard Lars Ulrich?
I found it pretty entertaining. I didn't know of his career after Cream so it was enlightening. Yeah, he's got an attitude but I give him props for not taking shit from anyone and doing whatever he wanted with his life. Most of us don't have that option or the balls.
rcarlberg
06-09-2014, 04:47 PM
Or the ego.
Innerviews
06-09-2014, 05:40 PM
I was once supposed to interview Ginger. It is the one occasion in which I was glad an interview was cancelled. I saved a lot in plastic surgery fees.
JKL2000
06-09-2014, 06:20 PM
In the photo on the back of the Blind Faith album he looks like he's just finished a drunken brawl.
Plasmatopia
06-09-2014, 08:51 PM
So did Ginger Baker really hold his own in the drum offs with various jazz drummers? I am not familiar with GB's work and found the clips in the documentary to portray his drumming as good, but....it all seemed sort of the same.
rcarlberg
06-09-2014, 11:09 PM
So did Ginger Baker really hold his own in the drum offs with various jazz drummers? I am not familiar with GB's work and found the clips in the documentary to portray his drumming as good, but....it all seemed sort of the same.I think "sort of the same" is a fair assessment, but what Ginger played was unlike what any other drummer was playing at the time. As Clapton says in the trailer, Ginger played on the 1 and 3 -- like African drummers -- rather than the 2 and 4 as everyone else up to his time did. It gave him a unique sound -- listen to SWLABR or White Room or Sunshine or Ulysses. He also damped down his drums so they had a very flat, non-resonant sound -- almost like he was hitting tabletops or something. And I can't remember him ever playing a snare?
But wow -- in the trailer HIS OWN SON says Ginger would've been better off not having a family. That's incredibly sad.
MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER
06-10-2014, 01:27 AM
I'm tempted to start a "Beware of Miss Baker" thread, as it is by far, the weakest PFM album
BGMiss Baker is bad... but I take it you haven't heard 'Como Ti Va...' or 'PFM? PFM!'...
as far as Ginger's music... I like all his instrumental albums from the 80s and early 90s
happytheman
06-10-2014, 05:58 AM
I just finished watching this.. agree with the train wreck analogy.. How he's managed to survive this long and so many of his peers from his era didn't is beyond me.. Reading Claptons book several years back gave me a lot of Gingers story but this on film account showed me that Ginger knew / knows exactly what he's doing.. he has enjoyed the ride to the fullest..
Plasmatopia
06-10-2014, 07:33 AM
I just finished watching this.. agree with the train wreck analogy.. How he's managed to survive this long and so many of his peers from his era didn't is beyond me.. Reading Claptons book several years back gave me a lot of Gingers story but this on film account showed me that Ginger knew / knows exactly what he's doing.. he has enjoyed the ride to the fullest..
In what sense did he know what he was doing? It seemed to me like he spent his life methodically alienating everyone around him who could help facilitate a stable and lasting career...until everyone was wary of working with him. If that's what he was after, then job well done.
Plasmatopia
06-10-2014, 07:36 AM
I think "sort of the same" is a fair assessment, but what Ginger played was unlike what any other drummer was playing at the time. As Clapton says in the trailer, Ginger played on the 1 and 3 -- like African drummers -- rather than the 2 and 4 as everyone else up to his time did. It gave him a unique sound -- listen to SWLABR or White Room or Sunshine or Ulysses. He also damped down his drums so they had a very flat, non-resonant sound -- almost like he was hitting tabletops or something. And I can't remember him ever playing a snare?
But wow -- in the trailer HIS OWN SON says Ginger would've been better off not having a family. That's incredibly sad.
I'm impressed with his playing and I can appreciate it. I'm not implying he was bad, it just seemed (from the clips) that he had/has a certain style or schtick to his drumming and everything he did was within that framework. Perhaps the clips gave me a limited impression.
Plasmatopia
06-10-2014, 07:40 AM
A lot of interesting parts, including the rather low regard Baker had for Bonham and Moon as drummers.
I was thinking that it was Clapton (in the documentary) that was dismissive of Bonham and Moon.
(I can't speak to the case of Moon, not having been much of a Who fan, but I'd have to disagree with Clapton about Bonham. But then I don't quite understand the idea of drumming/music as a competition...so I dismiss the whole premise of dismissing them!)
happytheman
06-11-2014, 05:14 AM
In what sense did he know what he was doing? It seemed to me like he spent his life methodically alienating everyone around him who could help facilitate a stable and lasting career...until everyone was wary of working with him. If that's what he was after, then job well done.
In the same way Jim Morrison knew what he was doing.. and it goes without saying he certainly knew how to "play" the guy doing the documentary..
Plasmatopia
06-11-2014, 09:15 AM
In the same way Jim Morrison knew what he was doing.. and it goes without saying he certainly knew how to "play" the guy doing the documentary..
So in some respects his antics are staged? Still don't know how well that worked out for him....
Trane
06-11-2014, 10:43 AM
I thought this was another thread warning us how much of a douche bag Ginger is
;)
Edit: Oh, :O it is... :lol (the opening post lead me to believe this was a Hollywood production... )
Trane
06-11-2014, 10:54 AM
I found it pretty entertaining. I didn't know of his career after Cream so it was enlightening. Yeah, he's got an attitude but I give him props for not taking shit from anyone and doing whatever he wanted with his life. Most of us don't have that option or the balls.
didn't watch it, but yeah, Ginger is a king of dicks (which is why he's also a douche bag ;) )
But he was highly adventurous in his African ventures... I'd biought one of two of his 70's vinyls in the early 80's, but I didn't have the owner's manual, so I got rid of them fairly quick... I guess it's time for a revisit.
Or the ego.
One can see him that way, but I tend to think JB was as equally egocentric
I think "sort of the same" is a fair assessment, but what Ginger played was unlike what any other drummer was playing at the time. As Clapton says in the trailer, Ginger played on the 1 and 3 -- like African drummers -- rather than the 2 and 4 as everyone else up to his time did. It gave him a unique sound -- listen to SWLABR or White Room or Sunshine or Ulysses. He also damped down his drums so they had a very flat, non-resonant sound -- almost like he was hitting tabletops or something. And I can't remember him ever playing a snare?
Yup, I always loved his drumming in Cream - loved how it sounded... and very little snare (which grates my ears)...
However, I was less enamoured with the GBA albums...
I thought it was pretty bold of him to go head to head in these drum battles. From the looks of it he lost each but "won" in the end by playing along with the other guy.
revporl
06-11-2014, 11:05 AM
He's great on Hawkwind's Levitation LP, and that live album with Fela is ace, but he is, as amply illustrated in the film, a twat.
NeonKnight
06-11-2014, 11:20 AM
I was thinking that it was Clapton (in the documentary) that was dismissive of Bonham and Moon.
(I can't speak to the case of Moon, not having been much of a Who fan, but I'd have to disagree with Clapton about Bonham. But then I don't quite understand the idea of drumming/music as a competition...so I dismiss the whole premise of dismissing them!)
Almost positive it was indeed Baker and not Clapton. I believe Ginger was talking about how much he hates the term "heavy metal" when the subject of Bonham and Moon came up. He dismissed them as something like "mere timekeepers" while considering himself a "jazz drummer" and therefore a true musician.
Baker was no doubt a first class A-hole but to me the meaning of the film goes beyond all that. He was crushed by the loss of his father in WW2, and that I felt is the defining event in Ginger's volatile personality. No excuse for him, but it seems to be a genuine psychological issue that was never dealt with.
I think Clapton also noted that there is something to be admired in Ginger if just for the fact that here was a person who really, really did not give a shit what anyone else thinks of him. He lived his life as many of us can only dream we could without fear of judgement.
His downfall is the fact he never did figure out that he should never treat his friends and family like he treated the rest of the world. Maybe this film gave him a little bit of insight into himself and the damage he caused internally and externally.
Plasmatopia
06-11-2014, 11:48 AM
I'm not sure how much can be attributed to Clapton's facial expression here, but the word "dismissive" was all that I could come up with:
http://youtu.be/U88i4Nqhp9g
NeonKnight
06-11-2014, 11:54 AM
Nice clip Plas! :)
So we're both right. Baker and Clapton dissing Bonham and Moon!
If they were not both six feet under, I would pay big bucks to see the four of them duke it out. (RIP Clapton)
Dave (in MA)
06-11-2014, 12:05 PM
I don't think Clapton was being dismissive of Bonham and Moon, just dismissive of them being frequently lumped together.
Plasmatopia
06-11-2014, 12:28 PM
Nice clip Plas! :)
So we're both right. Baker and Clapton dissing Bonham and Moon!
If they were not both six feet under, I would pay big bucks to see the four of them duke it out. (RIP Clapton)
After viewing the clip it's funny that I completely glossed over Baker's dismissal and focused on and remembered Clapton's reaction...
Plasmatopia
06-11-2014, 12:28 PM
I don't think Clapton was being dismissive of Bonham and Moon, just dismissive of them being frequently lumped together.
It's true - without more info it could be taken either way.
Adm.Kirk
06-12-2014, 02:06 AM
Ginger is a great drummer and Cream were a great band. Having said that, I like The Who and Zeppelin better than Cream. Baker is a better drummer than Moon. Moon probably could not have played with any band other than The Who and was the absolutely perfect choice for them. I recently watched a documentary on Cream and while watching Ginger have his way with the kit the thought occurred to me that Baker could have played in The Who. Of course, I don't think Townshend and Daltrey would have put up with him and if Baker thought Bruce was loud, Entwistle would have certainly provoked Ginger's ire. Baker suggests than Bonham couldn't swing. I wonder if he's just slightly jealous of Bonham's success. The idea that John Bonham can't swing is like saying Allan Holdsworth is a fair guitarist. I wonder what Ginger thinks of Bruford or Watts who also consider themselves jazz drummers. I think Baker is a miserable old man and that he feels as if he was passed over in the 70's by guys like Moon and Bonham, among others.
Bill
playbass
06-12-2014, 02:16 AM
I was disappointed they didn't touch upon his Hawkwind year.
Vic2012
06-12-2014, 05:59 AM
I think Baker is a miserable old man and that he feels as if he was passed over in the 70's by guys like Moon and Bonham, among others.
Amazing how a guy like that can get away with being such a miserable prick just because he happened to be a good musician in a very important band during a very important time in the history of Rock music. I'm not impressed by the fact that "he did whatever he wanted and didn't give a shit what anyone thought." Right. Let's see you go through life with that attitude. You'd be dead, or a homeless, unemployed derelict on the street. But yes, he was a hell of a drummer. Cream had a short career but they were great. Clapton was never better after Cream (imo).
Trane
06-12-2014, 08:33 AM
Keith Moon doesn't exactly 'swing' but John Bonham does IMHO- it's one of the things which separates Led Zeppelin from their later imitators.
I think neither swing (in the jazz sense, I think that's how Baker meant it), but at least Moon is incredibly intuitive... Bonham is good, but never thought of him as top tier drummer (but not far below that), wheras Ginger and moon are iny tier.
Jerjo
06-12-2014, 10:09 AM
Baker in the Who? Daltrey would broken a beer bottle over his head in the first week.
Adm.Kirk
06-12-2014, 11:57 AM
Agreed.
Bill
Phlakaton
06-12-2014, 12:52 PM
I'm impressed with his playing and I can appreciate it. I'm not implying he was bad, it just seemed (from the clips) that he had/has a certain style or schtick to his drumming and everything he did was within that framework. Perhaps the clips gave me a limited impression.
I always enjoyed his drumming - but I wouldnt put him up there with the greats. He was highly influential for sure... but like everyone has already said - or a lot of us - he's an angry and confused man. I wouldnt want to get anywhere near him. Just a mean person. I really enjoy the couple albums he made - Unseen Rain and Middle Passage - but they didnt cover any of that music for some reason. I guess they wanted to stick to the most interesting stuff instead.
Troopers For Sound
06-12-2014, 02:02 PM
That's a really interesting clip, especially for Clapton's reaction...agree with JJ88 though - Bonham's sense of swing within the rock framework is my favourite aspect of his playing.
Matt.
JeffCarney
06-12-2014, 02:53 PM
Baker suggests than Bonham couldn't swing. I wonder if he's just slightly jealous of Bonham's success. The idea that John Bonham can't swing is like saying Allan Holdsworth is a fair guitarist.
There's no "suggesting." He says he couldn't swing.
And he really couldn't.
As great a rock drummer as he was, anybody who thinks Bonham had truly developed "swing" in his arsenal does not really understand the term via its evolution in jazz drumming, IMO.
Dave (in MA)
06-12-2014, 03:06 PM
I really enjoy the couple albums he made - Unseen Rain and Middle Passage - but they didnt cover any of that music for some reason. They also covered stuff from the Air Force period and one of the albums with Laswell, Horses and Trees. They covered the DJQ20 period but never mentioned the improvised jazz album/tour that was documented in the live album No Material.
Troopers For Sound
06-12-2014, 03:13 PM
Not "swing" in the sense of jazz time...but Bonham quite blatantly has a beautiful sense of swing in his playing, in the same way that Neal Peart (who's playing I love) is a drummer who really doesn't have that sense of swing.
Semantics really...if you're saying Bonham can't play jazz, then sure.
izz_brian
06-12-2014, 03:16 PM
Not "swing" in the sense of jazz time...but Bonham quite blatantly has a beautiful sense of swing in his playing, in the same way that Neal Peart (who's playing I love) is a drummer who really doesn't have that sense of swing.
Semantics really...if you're saying Bonham can't play jazz, then sure.
What is swing?
:roll ;)
JeffCarney
06-12-2014, 03:21 PM
Baker may be a mean old fuck but he's a drumming genius, IMO.
He has quite literally made songs with some of his arrangements. Try to imagine "White Room" without the 5/4 march and it's nearly impossible, yet it was his idea to break up that opening in that manner.
Another rarely discussed yet certifiably genius idea he had was the way he plays on Blind Faith's "Can't Find My Way Home." I don't think there is another drummer alive who could have driven that along the way he does. It is understated, swings, and perfectly compliments the song. I'd argue that it even MAKES the song. And we're talking about Clapton playing beautiful acoustic and Winwood singing gloriously, so to think a drummer could add something so crucial to that already amazing combination is quite remarkable.
No Pride
06-12-2014, 03:26 PM
Ginger "dissed" Mitch Mitchell too on another documentary; maybe it was the one about the making of "Disraeli Gears," not sure. In that respect, he's the Yngwie Malmsteen of drums. I hate when musicians put down their peers whom they claim to be much better than. Leave that to the rest of the world to judge. It just shows a total lack of class.
JeffCarney
06-12-2014, 03:32 PM
Not "swing" in the sense of jazz time...but Bonham quite blatantly has a beautiful sense of swing in his playing, in the same way that Neal Peart (who's playing I love) is a drummer who really doesn't have that sense of swing.
Semantics really...if you're saying Bonham can't play jazz, then sure.
It's really not semantics. Bonham couldn't really swing. Neither can Peart.
There are rock drummers who can. Aside from Baker, listen to Bill Bruford on "I See You," Bill Ward on "The Wizard" or Carl Palmer on "Tank" as some excellent examples.
It's a very specific feel that very few rock drummers ever attain. Those who have it are almost invariably well versed in jazz drumming.
Zeuhlmate
06-12-2014, 04:32 PM
"Swing" is when you are not just a timekeeper with fills, but actually actively playing, changing moving the rythm small micro intervals forth and back in a musical way, pushing things to happen.
Sometimes Bruford swings but he is not the typical 'swinger' he loves keeping complicated timing - John Bonham actually was - so I disagree with Jeff Carney - take a presumably simple rythm like Whole lotta Love. listen to his drums, a lot of the magick is in that he doesnt play exactly metricly, but like a good jazzdrummer.
Have you ever heard good covers of this tune ? Not many, because it requires a heavy jazzdrummer or a Bonham.
mogrooves
06-12-2014, 04:44 PM
Ginger "dissed" Mitch Mitchell too on another documentary; maybe it was the one about the making of "Disraeli Gears," not sure. .
I don't much really care what he says about Bonham (whose playing on "Good Times, Bad Times" alone--the first song!--puts him in the pantheon) or Moon--hell, Townshend disses Moon's playing--but Mitchell?! For a guy whose playing was once described, not without cause, as sounding like "kicking a set of luggage down a flight of stairs," Baker's simply not hearing Mitchell. I dug his "luggage-down-a staircase" thing, but he'd have been an anchor around Jimi's neck; Mitch allowed him to soar.
JeffCarney
06-12-2014, 04:47 PM
"Swing" is when you are not just a timekeeper with fills, but actually actively playing, changing moving the rythm small micro intervals forth and back in a musical way, pushing things to happen.
Sometimes Bruford swings but he is not the typical 'swinger' he loves keeping complicated timing - John Bonham actually was - so I disagree with Jeff Carney - take a presumably simple rythm like Whole lotta Love. listen to his drums, a lot of the magick is in that he doesnt play exactly metricly, but like a good jazzdrummer.
Have you ever heard good covers of this tune ? Not many, because it requires a heavy jazzdrummer or a Bonham.
Bonham is not playing jazz on "Whole Lotta Love." It's powerful, busy, creative rock drumming. But it does not swing.
Mitch Mitchell, Mike Giles ... these are other rock drummers who could swing.
Don't confuse busy drumming with swing. The two can even be mutually exclusive. .
It might sound cliché but swing is something you kind of either have or you don't. In general, Bonham did not have a spec of swing. And it doesn't matter, because that's not the sound Zeppelin was going for. He approximates swing on "How Many More Times" but this is more cocktail lounge, lite-jazz ala The Door's "Riders On The Storm." He could pound, shuffle, groove and gallop his ass off, but as Baker (rudely but correctly) states: "He couldn't swing shit if you put it in a sack and handed it to him."
Trane
06-13-2014, 03:09 AM
He has quite literally made songs with some of his arrangements. Try to imagine "White Room" without the 5/4 march and it's nearly impossible, yet it was his idea to break up that opening in that manner.
So Ginger mighthave gotten some credits fo White Room, then?
And in some ways, this could give credit to Baker's accrimony and attack to Bruce songwriting credits (can't find the earlier post that spoke about this)... Indeed, Jack Bruce was never as good in terms of songwriting as he was in Cream (IMHO)- OK, I like a few tunes from Taylor, but none are as good as his top tier Cream stuff
JeffCarney
06-13-2014, 03:27 AM
So Ginger mighthave gotten some credits fo White Room, then?
And in some ways, this could give credit to Baker's accrimony and attack to Bruce songwriting credits (can't find the earlier post that spoke about this)... Indeed, Jack Bruce was never as good in terms of songwriting as he was in Cream (IMHO)- OK, I like a few tunes from Taylor, but none are as good as his top tier Cream stuff
Bruce still had the goods on some of the West Bruce and Laing stuff. "Out In The Fields" might even be his greatest accomplishment, IMO.
But I'm really talking about Baker as a drummer and arranger, not who wrote what and who was upset and so forth ...
Trane
06-13-2014, 03:39 AM
But I'm really talking about Baker as a drummer and arranger, not who wrote what and who was upset and so forth ...
OK... ;)
Vic2012
06-13-2014, 05:23 AM
What is swing?
:roll ;)
:lol
First chuckle o' the day.
Phlakaton
06-13-2014, 09:29 AM
My history of jazz professor in college didnt think Buddy Rich could swing. He was a Krupa and Roach fan... I get it. Rich was very technical sounding - but I disagreed with him. Rich could swing like a mofo. Maybe I need to listen to some Giles again today - I never thought of his style as having a big swing component at all... been a while since I heard anything from him except McDonald and Giles. I just think of his quirky stilted notes and amazing precision.
No Pride
06-13-2014, 12:17 PM
I don't much really care what he says about Bonham (whose playing on "Good Times, Bad Times" alone--the first song!--puts him in the pantheon) or Moon--hell, Townshend disses Moon's playing--but Mitchell?! For a guy whose playing was once described, not without cause, as sounding like "kicking a set of luggage down a flight of stairs," Baker's simply not hearing Mitchell. I dug his "luggage-down-a staircase" thing, but he'd have been an anchor around Jimi's neck; Mitch allowed him to soar.
This is a direct quote from Mr. Baker:
When people put drummers like John Bonham, Mitch Mitchell and Keith Moon in the same bag as me, it's really insulting. I have a gift and none of them is even on the same street as me.
If you say so, Ginger. :roll
trurl
06-13-2014, 12:23 PM
Ginger can't eat Bonham's toe jam, whether he has any "jazz cred" or not.
Calabasas_Trafalgar
06-13-2014, 12:56 PM
I don't much really care what he says about Bonham (whose playing on "Good Times, Bad Times" alone--the first song!--puts him in the pantheon) or Moon--hell, Townshend disses Moon's playing--but Mitchell?! For a guy whose playing was once described, not without cause, as sounding like "kicking a set of luggage down a flight of stairs," Baker's simply not hearing Mitchell. I dug his "luggage-down-a staircase" thing, but he'd have been an anchor around Jimi's neck; Mitch allowed him to soar.
It's interesting which contemporaries Baker chooses to diss. Notice he didn't mention Jon Hiseman, Iain Paice, Clive Bunker, Carl Palmer, all of whom could have bested Ginger with one hand tied behind their back, as would Mitchell and perhaps even Moon. Bonham - I think there you have a tie, although I prefer Baker's style.
JeffCarney
06-13-2014, 01:06 PM
My history of jazz professor in college didnt think Buddy Rich could swing. He was a Krupa and Roach fan... I get it. Rich was very technical sounding - but I disagreed with him. Rich could swing like a mofo. Maybe I need to listen to some Giles again today - I never thought of his style as having a big swing component at all... been a while since I heard anything from him except McDonald and Giles. I just think of his quirky stilted notes and amazing precision.
I wouldn't cite Giles as having a "big swing component" ala Krupa or Roach, but I think he is a good example of a rock drummer with clear jazz influence. And yes, compared to a pounder like Bonham (not a criticism), he had some swing.
JeffCarney
06-13-2014, 01:12 PM
It's interesting which contemporaries Baker chooses to diss. Notice he didn't mention Jon Hiseman, Iain Paice, Clive Bunker, Carl Palmer, all of whom could have bested Ginger with one hand tied behind their back, as would Mitchell and perhaps even Moon. Bonham - I think there you have a tie, although I prefer Baker's style.
Baker is asked about Hiseman here (0:48). And Hawkwind after that ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb-zUvQMO5I
Dave (in MA)
06-13-2014, 02:37 PM
I was unaware that wanker was a word that would get bleeped. (I think that's what he said)
JeffCarney
06-13-2014, 03:02 PM
I was unaware that wanker was a word that would get bleeped.
Same here. Do not get that.
Adm.Kirk
06-13-2014, 03:47 PM
In the jazz sense, Bonham does not swing. In the rock sense, he definitely swings.
Bill
Phlakaton
06-13-2014, 03:47 PM
I wouldn't cite Giles as having a "big swing component" ala Krupa or Roach, but I think he is a good example of a rock drummer with clear jazz influence. And yes, compared to a pounder like Bonham (not a criticism), he had some swing.
Yup... he indeed does have that flavor in there. It's not apparent sometimes but he definitely does swing
rapidfirerob
06-14-2014, 02:57 AM
This is a direct quote from Mr. Baker:
When people put drummers like John Bonham, Mitch Mitchell and Keith Moon in the same bag as me, it's really insulting. I have a gift and none of them is even on the same street as me.
If you say so, Ginger. :roll
I recall Ginger saying something about the three of them not being able to swing a bag of nails, or some such thing. I don't remember anything about their general drumming ability. Where did he say this?
Rufus
06-15-2014, 04:47 PM
There's no "suggesting." He says he couldn't swing.
And he really couldn't.
As great a rock drummer as he was, anybody who thinks Bonham had truly developed "swing" in his arsenal does not really understand the term via its evolution in jazz drumming, IMO.
^^^^Agree! I personally don't like the 'swing' aspect when applied in rock music. How many jazz drummers could rock like Bonham?
No Pride
06-16-2014, 03:51 PM
I recall Ginger saying something about the three of them not being able to swing a bag of nails, or some such thing. I don't remember anything about their general drumming ability. Where did he say this?
It was in a Wall Street Journal Online article. The url is ridiculously long and (though it's embarrassing to admit this) I still don't know how to copy and paste, sorry!
I see he has a new CD called "Why?" coming out soon. First in 20 years? Hope he sings too!
Paul Smeenus
06-16-2014, 04:19 PM
At first I saw this as "Beware of Mt. Baker". I don't live far from there and I was thinking this thread was saying it might erupt
http://www.johnsonteamrealestate.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Mt-Baker1.jpg
Jay G
06-16-2014, 05:01 PM
Almost positive it was indeed Baker and not Clapton.
It was indeed Ginger. One of the greatest lines ever from Ginger - Bonham couldn't swing a bag of shit.
rcarlberg
06-16-2014, 05:05 PM
Mt. Baker is a dormant volcano. Mr. Baker is not dormant.
Jay G
06-16-2014, 05:08 PM
I also highly recommend his book Hellraiser though not as funny as the movie. I love the miserable bastard as he is perhaps the only person in the world more angry than myself.
Mt Baker has the potential to hurt more feelings than Ginger ever did if it blew.
Paul Smeenus
06-16-2014, 05:39 PM
Mt. Baker is a dormant volcano. Mr. Baker is not dormant.
Actually Baker is the 2nd most active of the great Cascade volcanoes after St Helens. It could blow any day (we would of course have plenty of warning), or continue steaming for hundreds of years
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvXuGgabQxU
Dave (in MA)
06-16-2014, 06:21 PM
I see he has a new CD called "Why?" coming out soon. First in 20 years? Hope he sings too!
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/ginger-baker-asks-himself-why-in-swinging-new-song-premiere-20140430
Phlakaton
06-16-2014, 09:14 PM
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/ginger-baker-asks-himself-why-in-swinging-new-song-premiere-20140430
There's the hi-hat. Toms. Ginger Baker.
Trane
06-17-2014, 04:31 AM
Mt. Baker is a dormant volcano. Mr. Baker is not dormant.
:lol
Mt Baker has the potential to hurt more feelings than Ginger ever did if it blew.
Don't underestimate Ginger's capacity aty being a nuisance to others... ;)
Zeuhlmate
06-17-2014, 05:27 AM
The Chuck Norris of the drumkit?
Watanabe
06-24-2014, 08:52 PM
I don't much really care what he says about Bonham (whose playing on "Good Times, Bad Times" alone--the first song!--puts him in the pantheon) or Moon--hell, Townshend disses Moon's playing--but Mitchell?! For a guy whose playing was once described, not without cause, as sounding like "kicking a set of luggage down a flight of stairs," Baker's simply not hearing Mitchell. I dug his "luggage-down-a staircase" thing, but he'd have been an anchor around Jimi's neck; Mitch allowed him to soar.
I think baker has just lost the plot and become a total curmudgeon over the years.I've read contemporary interviews where he compliments Mitchell, and accounts of them jamming together and being on good terms back then.I think you're right on the Hendrix thing too, i remember there was a website years ago that had a great extremely in-depth breakdown of MItchell, Baker, Hiseman, Moon and Bonham's drumming styles and it commented on how the others would have been too individualistic in a more narrow stylistic sense for Hendrix, and that Mitchell's loose "everything goes, but done with good fundamentals and chops" playing was the perfect foil for Jimmy.This was something i've remembered since as i agreed with it completely.
i do think some other players of that era like Wyatt, Dunbar, Waller, Bunker and maybe Newman and a few others would have been great with Jimi too, but Mitchell really was a tremendous player that was totally right for him.
Watanabe
06-24-2014, 09:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1pzXJuvdAY
One of my favourite Baker beats that he did with Cream.Really inventive, hip stuff for what most would have taken in a more standard blues fashion.
Something i always found fascinatiing about Baker as a player was how he was into playing slowly and polyrhythmically when most rock drummers were all about the top-kit, buddy rich influence and flinging fast triplet fills all around the kit.His independence figures and african syncopation were quite unique among rock drummers of the late 60s.I could do without the long ponderous solos, but in an ensemble setting he was often extremely effective with his odd accents and polyrythmic shifts.
As a young drummer when i was getting into all the great drummers of that era, coming from a rudimental snare background and growing up around jazz all my life, i found it quite easy to get to grips with the styles of many of the greats of that era, and replicate their beats.But with Baker it was often extremely difficult to get his parts to sound right at all, such was his unique stylistic approach and altogether more unusual integration of jazz influence with straight-eighth patterns than many other equally great players, who would bring in influences from jazz in a more typical ride\snare comping, with occasional accents on toms + fast triplet fills across the snare and toms style.
i could get pretty close to something like Third rock from the sun, Manic Depression, Tull's stuff from stand up and this was, Paice's early stuff etc without much need for extensive practice of a particular beat or straining of the usual jazz\rock rythmic conception etc...but Baker's patterns, especially the live stuff when jamming over Clapton''s long solo's could be outright confusing to feel.He always seemed to have an ability to slip in an unusual accent, or addition to a beat that would require some tricky co-ordination or even just the act of remembering to go there when it felt so unusual to...and sometimes this drumming was pretty slow and required less top-kit dexterity than other drummers beats i could hear and feel rhythmically a lot easier.
Not a player who has a style for everyone, and someone who will inspire a lot of hate from his comments, but truly a drummer with a unique rhythmic concept and that you could usually tell was him within a few bars.Also one who continued to improve his playing over the years.Even by the mid 70s with Baker Gurvitz he's moved up a few notches technically, and coming up with some even more unusual twists to what on the surface can seem simpler straight eight rock derived patterns.
bRETT
06-26-2014, 11:53 PM
Head an advance of the new album with the Jazz Confusion ("Why"), and it's pretty damn good-- All instrumental with great soloing (ex-James Brown/Van Morrison saxman Pee Wee Ellis) and the drumming is right on-form. Nice version of "Aiko Biaye" from the Airforce days (the only familiar tune). He plays Boston on SUnday and I much look forward to it.
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