JFK FYI

[davis]

For anyone interested in documentaries about JFK's assassination, the National Geographic channel is showing 3 docs and the movie adaptation of the book 'Killing Kenedy' on Nov 15, starting at 3 p.m. EST. Everybody that's interested is probably already aware of this, but I wanted to sound the alarm anyway. That's 5 hours total, or probably 4 hours if DVRing and ffwding through commericials.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/schedule/daily/

[hippypants]

Thanks, I don't have that channel, but PBS was showing JFK specials last night. On Nova they examined the forensic evidence of the incident, single gun theory vs. multiple shooters. After watching that I could believe Oswald was the sole shooter. The other two programs were more or less a look back at the several aspects of the JFK assassination, which were worthwhile too.

[Banquo]

A movie based on a Bill O'Reilly book? That's a conspiracy all on it's own. No thanks.

[No Pride]

'Killing Kenedy'
Saw it and thought it was good!


A movie based on a Bill O'Reilly book? That's a conspiracy all on it's own. No thanks.
Maybe, but no conspiracy theory concerning the assassination was suggested.

[davis]

A movie based on a Bill O'Reilly book? That's a conspiracy all on it's own. No thanks.

:lol afraid you might enjoy it?

[Gruno]

Thanks for the alert for the tv specials. I will check 'em out. My mother kept the newspaper articles from the assassination of JFK. I have them put away.

I was actually thinking about songs that mention JFK recently.

[davis]

^ this is the first one that comes to mind:
http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/i-shall-be-free

[Banquo]

:lol afraid you might enjoy it?

Nah. Almost everything that comes out of O'Reilly's mouth amuses me. Besides, I don't think that there's anything new that can possibly justify a book and movie from a guy who is obviously looking to profit from the renewed interest of JFK's assassination. He's prolly already writing his RFK book. For the record, I'm a firm believer in that Oswald acted alone.

[Banquo]

Maybe, but no conspiracy theory concerning the assassination was suggested.

Well, I'm not sure how one could possibly address the subject without any mention of conspiracies or other shooters, but I'll defer to you since you watched it and I still probably will not. Even if so, what would be a good reason for me to watch? What is different than anything else that's been said already?

[No Pride]

For the record, I'm a firm believer in that Oswald acted alone.

Well, I'm not sure how one could possibly address the subject without any mention of conspiracies or other shooters, but I'll defer to you since you watched it and I still probably will not. Even if so, what would be a good reason for me to watch? What is different than anything else that's been said already?
I was not well read on what's been said already and if you are, there's probably no revelations for you here. It's interesting if you haven't pursued the subject that much. Slightly embarrassing to admit, but I learned more than I previously knew from reading Stephen King's obviously fictional (but fact based) account of a man going back in time to prevent the assassination, "11/22/63." Most of his details match what was covered in "Killing Kennedy" and in both cases, the impression is that Oswald acted alone.

[Gruno]

I was actually thinking about songs that mention JFK recently.


^ this is the first one that comes to mind:
http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/i-shall-be-free

The Dream Academy - Life In A Northern Town

"He said, "In winter 1963
It felt like the world would freeze
With John F. Kennedy and the Beatles"

--------

The Postal Service - Sleeping In

"Last week I had the strangest dream
Where everything was exactly how it seemed
Where there was never any mystery of who shot John F. Kennedy
It was just a man with something to prove
Slightly bored and severely confused
He steadied his rifle with his target in the center
And became famous on that day in November"

--------

Concrete Blonde - Tomorrow, Wendy

"Underneath the chilly gray November sky
We can make believe that Kennedy is still alive and
Were shooting for the moon and smiling Jackie's driving by and
They say 'good try"

[davis]

oh, and there's this one


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T5qeByAfA8

[Modry Effekt]

2807

[Sputnik]

For the record, I'm a firm believer in that Oswald acted alone.

I'm open to the possibility that Oswald was the lone shooter (though I remain unconvinced that he was), but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a conspiracy or that he acted alone. I think the key to the whole thing is Jack Ruby. His ties to organized crime and the M.O. of the hit was classic mob stuff and makes it pretty obvious something more was going on.

My sense is that rogue CIA and FBI agents, acting in concert with the mafia and some Cuban exiles were behind the plot. Basically the remnants of the Bay of Pigs teams that felt betrayed by the Kennedy administration, which in some sense they were. I don't think Oswald was supposed to have made it out of the TSBD building alive, and when he did, knowing what he did, he had to be eliminated.

Can I prove it? No. But with no really hard evidence, it all depends on who you trust. And in this case I trust my relative, who was a former FBI bagman, who in the 70s gave extensive evidence of FBI misdoings and cleared the names of many falsely accused, changing the face of the modern FBI. So this guy knows what he's talking about, and knew many of the people involved in the plot personally. But even he lacks the true "evidence" to prove it, so the "mystery" persists.

I'm not generally a conspiracy theory type person, but the Kennedy assassinations are exceptions. I firmly believe both were conspiracies, but remain open to hard evidence to the contrary. In any case, I doubt a National Geographic or PBS retrospective special will reveal anything new. And Bill O'Reilly's stuff is just a joke. IMO. YMMV. An' shit.

Bill

[Dave the Brave]

I recently saw a doco that claims Kennedy may of been hit by an inept, hungover, Secret Service guy who was packing an M15 a few cars behind the Prez.

Seems that when Oswald fired the first 2 shots the Secret Serviced guy stood up in the car with the cocked and loaded gun and was thrown backward when the car he was in sped up causing him to accidentally fire the round that actually was the killing shot.

http://www.reelz.com/smokinggun/

DtB

[Dan Roth]

Oliver Stone doesn't offer additional theories, but in his new article written for USA Today, he lays out in pretty straight-forward fashion how JFK conspiracy deniers are in denial - well written summary, imho. I love this quote: "The single bullet theory allows for one bullet, fired from the sixth floor, on a downward trajectory, to enter Kennedy's back and then move upward, out his throat and into Texas Gov. John Connally to his front, where it zigs and zags breaking two bones and creating seven wounds.":

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/11/20/oliver-stone-jfk-conspiracy-assassination-oswald-column/3657321/

[Scott Bails]

I did read somewhere that the bullet did not move upward, as Kennedy's and Connally's seats were not the same height in the car. And then that the zig-zagging could be explained by ricochets.

We'll never really know what happened.

[UnephenStephen]

one thing i can't get past is how the FRONT of Kennedy's head exploded on impact and how his head and body were forced back and to the left as if the shot came from the front right. basic physics. if the fatal shot was shot by Oswald, it would have to have hit Kennedy in the back of the head causing his head to explode in the back and forcing his head forward not backward. not trying to start a shit storm here but to me it's obvious there was a 2nd shooter.

[Jerjo]

The episode of Seinfeld that had Keith Hernandez as a guest star explained everything to my satisfaction.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBz3PqA2Fmc

On the serious side, Charles P Pierce had a great piece on the Warren Commission today:

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/anniversary-of-jfk-assassination-112213

[Banquo]

one thing i can't get past is how the FRONT of Kennedy's head exploded on impact and how his head and body were forced back and to the left as if the shot came from the front right. basic physics.

You've been watching too many westerns.

[TerrellMiller]

replying to several posts here (I swore I wasn't gonna get dragged back into this, but oh well):


Sputnik said:


I think the key to the whole thing is Jack Ruby. His ties to organized crime and the M.O. of the hit was classic mob stuff and makes it pretty obvious something more was going on.



Ruby didn't really have any ties to the mob. When he was a child in Chicago he sucked up to a few neighborhood-boss types, true. But I've never seen any evidence that as an adult he had any involvement with organized crime at all. But there is plenty of testimony from people who'd known him for years that he was unstable and prone to get overexcited and go off teh deep end at any time. I think Ruby shot Oswald simply because after all the media coverage and excitement, and after he'd hung around the DPD headquarters all weekend, he reached the point where he couldn't make himself stop, for internal reasons he prolly didn't even understand himself.

One big part of the JFK conspiracy theories is the question of why Oswald was "silenced" so quickly. But I've heard recordings of TV and radio broadcasts that went out even before Oswald shot Tippit, let alone was arrested, speculating that whoever the assassin was, it was unlikely that he would ever be taken alive and might even kill himself rather than be captured; so the reality is that hours before the public even knew who Oswald was, people were expecting that the shooter wouldn't live long. And in fact, when Oswald was caught at the Texas Theater an hour after the assassination, the police had to form a human shield around him to keep the hostile crowd from getting to him.

So the amazing thing isn't that Oswald was "silenced" two days after the assassination, what's actually remarkable is that he even survived that long in the first place.




I don't think Oswald was supposed to have made it out of the TSBD building alive, and when he did, knowing what he did, he had to be eliminated.


okay, then...where were the people who were supposed to take him out? Why wasn't there a DPD officer (or somebody masquerading as one) right at the TSBD entrance, ready to rush in and shoot him on sight? Because for your theory to hold up, the people behind the plot would have needed to kill Oswald immediately after he shot JFK, not risk that he'd escape and get captured by the police and get paraded in front of the press and everything else that actually happened that weekend. So where was the "cleaning staff"?



Dave the brave said:


I recently saw a doco that claims Kennedy may of been hit by an inept, hungover, Secret Service guy who was packing an M15 a few cars behind the Prez.

Seems that when Oswald fired the first 2 shots the Secret Serviced guy stood up in the car with the cocked and loaded gun and was thrown backward when the car he was in sped up causing him to accidentally fire the round that actually was the killing shot.



That theory has long been debunked. It was first developed by a Baltimore gunsmith named Howard Donahue in the 80s, and was the basis for a book called Mortal Error written by Bonar Menninger. The book even named the secret service agent (George Hickey, RIP) who allegedly fired the shots. But several photographs and movies taken during the assassination prove conclusively that nobody in the followup car (which was only five feet behind JFK's limo at teh time of the head shot) had even drawn a weapon, let alone pointed one at JFK. It's a complete myth.

Donahue based his "analysis" on guesstimates of the position of JFK from eyeballing stills of the Zapruder film and other photos. He just made a lot of bad estimates, his data inputs were way off. And when teh book was published Hickey sued Donahue and the publisher (St. Martin's Press). The curator of the Sixth Floor Museum arranged a private showing of the Bronson film which proves Donahue's theory to be false in all respects. That was fifteen years ago, but somebody is resurrecting it to make a quick buck now that Hickey is dead and can no longer sue for defamation/libel.


Dan Roth said:


I love this quote: "The single bullet theory allows for one bullet, fired from the sixth floor, on a downward trajectory, to enter Kennedy's back and then move upward, out his throat and into Texas Gov. John Connally to his front, where it zigs and zags breaking two bones and creating seven wounds.":


sad that Stone is still clinging to that (Costner's character walked the jury through it during the trial scene in Stone's movie), after at least two extremely precise surveys of Dealey Plaza and extensive 3D modeling of the scene, the limousine, and the two victims have conclusively shown that the single bullet did no such thing. When you watch the movie, the two men standing in for JFK and Connally are facing forward in identical chairs on a level courthouse floor, directly in line with each other. That doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to what actually happened. The limo was headed downhill, Connally was crammed into a little jump seat bolted to the floorboard, lower and further inboard than JFK, and he was turned to his right when he was shot. Single bullet that passed through JFK in a straight line, then started tumbling as it struck Connally in the back, exited his chest, went through his right wrist and then wound up in his left thigh. Absolutely no need for a second bullet, let alone a second source for the bullets.

UneverStephen said:


one thing i can't get past is how the FRONT of Kennedy's head exploded on impact and how his head and body were forced back and to the left as if the shot came from the front right. basic physics. if the fatal shot was shot by Oswald, it would have to have hit Kennedy in the back of the head causing his head to explode in the back and forcing his head forward not backward. not trying to start a shit storm here but to me it's obvious there was a 2nd shooter.


The front of his head didn't explode. Watch the Zapruder film, and look at the autopsy x-rays and photographs. There was a bullet-sized entrance wound in the top rear of his skull, and a gaping exit wound in the top right rear section. The "back and to the left" thing is complete Hollywood, not how human beings actually respond when they're shot in real life. That was thoroughly debunked long ago but people still cling to their impressions from watching action movies, not real forensic science.

Ironically, one of the leading conspiracy theorists, a videographer named Robert Groden who runs a memorabilia kiosk in Dealey Plaza, was part of the 1998 forensic reenactment. They used laser pointers to backtrack to teh source of the shots, after a very thorough surveying and very precise measurements of the location of the limo and the position of Connally and JFK at the time of the shots. They even made sure to pull back the limbs of the trees in front of the TSBD building, which had grown during the intervening 35 years, to recreate the field of view from teh 6th floor window.

They filmed Groden raving on and on about where the grassy-knoll gunman was who allegedly fired the headshot. Then after everbody agreed on the exact position of JFK and the exact nature of the wounds, they ran the laser pointer and proved conclusively that it was impossible for any of teh shots to have come from anywhere other than from the right rear of the limo. And the real forensic experts on the panel very patiently explained to Groden why his little theories were completely inaccurate and based on fantasy, not reality.

That reenactment (which was improved upon in 2003, this time with 3D computer modeling) showed that it was possible that shots came from teh second floor of the Dal-Tex building across the street and behind the TSBD, but only if the estimated positions of the limo, and JFK's position in it, were pushed right to the extreme edge of teh error-bars of the estimates. In short, only if you fudge the data a little bit. And afaik they never took into account the presence of the followup car (with secret service agents standing on the running boards), which would likely have shielded anybody in the Dal-Text building from a direct line of fire.

So according to very detailed and precise recreations of the assassination, the only possible source for all the shots was the southeast corner window of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository building...the sniper's nest in the area where Oswald worked, where shell casings were recovered that were proven to have been fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle found on that floor and purchased by Oswald, and the window where several witnesses saw a rifle during the shooting.

Sorry folks, I know it sounds bizarre but Oswald was the only gunman, and there has never been any credible evidence that he had any conspirators. Titanic struck an iceberg in just the wrong way, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island happened because of botched safety drills, Andrea Doria and Stockholm collided because the crews of both ships didn't know how to interpret their newfangled radar scopes, Franz Ferdinand was assassinated because his driver took a wrong turn along a parade route, Lincoln was shot because his sole bodyguard popped off to a pub across the street, the Northeast power blackout ten years ago happened because a couple of trees fell on power lines at the exact wrong place and time...and the 35th President of the United States was gunned down by one loser who couldn't fit in anywhere in life.

it happens, and there's no way to prevent it from happening from time to time. That's just life.

[Dan Roth]

Single bullet that passed through JFK in a straight line, then started tumbling as it struck Connally in the back, exited his chest, went through his right wrist and then wound up in his left thigh.

I certainly am no expert, and not looking to argue at all. But was the force of this bullet that powerful that it could enter and exit through two people and keep going to re-enter the 2nd person's wrist and then into his thigh?

[TerrellMiller]

yep, that's been repeatedly demonstrated using other Carcano rifles with the same ammunition Oswald used. I don't remember the actual assassination rifle being run through that test, though it was used to see if it's possible to fire three shots accurately in the given timespan, which turns out to be pretty easy for anybody with basic marksmanship skills. Easy shot in a tiny location, with plenty of time for each shot.

[Jerjo]

I'm just sitting in front of my computer, waking up the cats because I'm giving Terrell the slow hand clap. Bravo sir! :up

[Casey]

I would very strongly recommend "Case Closed" by Gerald Posner.

As for what a bullet does once it leaves a gun, physics will provide answers, but you have to employ your equations for every millimeter of it's flight. When you ONLY look from start to finish sometimes it doesn't make sense. Oliver Stone had a movie to sell. Why do you think the other members of The Doors distanced themselves from the movie about Jim Morrison. He employs too much artistic license when creating films about real-life events. Walter Cronkite was incredibly pissed off with his "JFK" movie.

[Tangram]

replying to several posts here (I swore I wasn't gonna get dragged back into this

Well said, and thanks for all the hard work so I didn't have to do it. I swore I was going to get dragged into it too. :)

A good read for the "Oswald did it alone" crowd is Gerald Posner's book "Case Closed". He goes thru many of the conspiracy theories in a very convincing manner.

I do remember seeing the movie "Executive Action" when I was in my teens and it scared the crap outta me. Because the ending has about 20 people related to the assassination who died of unnatural causes. The estimate of that happening was about 100 trillion to one. This has also been debunked, but to the average movie goer, this and stuff like Oliver Stones movie can suck you in. Hollywood, authors, talk shows, the book depository museum etc have made a ton of money on this cottage industry. Basically, a tragic event created by a loser coupled with a population who were seeing two murders, one very graphic, for the first time in their lives, looking for answers to almost unbelievable event. Science has explained away the theories but there will always be non believers.

[Tangram]

Sorry Casey, I started to write this hours ago and got interrupted. You already mentioned Posner's book. Yes, when people mix history with fiction in order to sell tickets, it does a disservice to the people who believe they are getting a history lesson.

[jake]

All I can say is I'm buying shares in Alcoa - Americas's most successful milliner.

[Plasmatopia]

replying to several posts here (I swore I wasn't gonna get dragged back into this, but oh well):


Sputnik said:



Ruby didn't really have any ties to the mob. When he was a child in Chicago he sucked up to a few neighborhood-boss types, true. But I've never seen any evidence that as an adult he had any involvement with organized crime at all. But there is plenty of testimony from people who'd known him for years that he was unstable and prone to get overexcited and go off teh deep end at any time. I think Ruby shot Oswald simply because after all the media coverage and excitement, and after he'd hung around the DPD headquarters all weekend, he reached the point where he couldn't make himself stop, for internal reasons he prolly didn't even understand himself.

One big part of the JFK conspiracy theories is the question of why Oswald was "silenced" so quickly. But I've heard recordings of TV and radio broadcasts that went out even before Oswald shot Tippit, let alone was arrested, speculating that whoever the assassin was, it was unlikely that he would ever be taken alive and might even kill himself rather than be captured; so the reality is that hours before the public even knew who Oswald was, people were expecting that the shooter wouldn't live long. And in fact, when Oswald was caught at the Texas Theater an hour after the assassination, the police had to form a human shield around him to keep the hostile crowd from getting to him.

So the amazing thing isn't that Oswald was "silenced" two days after the assassination, what's actually remarkable is that he even survived that long in the first place.




okay, then...where were the people who were supposed to take him out? Why wasn't there a DPD officer (or somebody masquerading as one) right at the TSBD entrance, ready to rush in and shoot him on sight? Because for your theory to hold up, the people behind the plot would have needed to kill Oswald immediately after he shot JFK, not risk that he'd escape and get captured by the police and get paraded in front of the press and everything else that actually happened that weekend. So where was the "cleaning staff"?



Dave the brave said:



That theory has long been debunked. It was first developed by a Baltimore gunsmith named Howard Donahue in the 80s, and was the basis for a book called Mortal Error written by Bonar Menninger. The book even named the secret service agent (George Hickey, RIP) who allegedly fired the shots. But several photographs and movies taken during the assassination prove conclusively that nobody in the followup car (which was only five feet behind JFK's limo at teh time of the head shot) had even drawn a weapon, let alone pointed one at JFK. It's a complete myth.

Donahue based his "analysis" on guesstimates of the position of JFK from eyeballing stills of the Zapruder film and other photos. He just made a lot of bad estimates, his data inputs were way off. And when teh book was published Hickey sued Donahue and the publisher (St. Martin's Press). The curator of the Sixth Floor Museum arranged a private showing of the Bronson film which proves Donahue's theory to be false in all respects. That was fifteen years ago, but somebody is resurrecting it to make a quick buck now that Hickey is dead and can no longer sue for defamation/libel.


Dan Roth said:


sad that Stone is still clinging to that (Costner's character walked the jury through it during the trial scene in Stone's movie), after at least two extremely precise surveys of Dealey Plaza and extensive 3D modeling of the scene, the limousine, and the two victims have conclusively shown that the single bullet did no such thing. When you watch the movie, the two men standing in for JFK and Connally are facing forward in identical chairs on a level courthouse floor, directly in line with each other. That doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to what actually happened. The limo was headed downhill, Connally was crammed into a little jump seat bolted to the floorboard, lower and further inboard than JFK, and he was turned to his right when he was shot. Single bullet that passed through JFK in a straight line, then started tumbling as it struck Connally in the back, exited his chest, went through his right wrist and then wound up in his left thigh. Absolutely no need for a second bullet, let alone a second source for the bullets.

UneverStephen said:


The front of his head didn't explode. Watch the Zapruder film, and look at the autopsy x-rays and photographs. There was a bullet-sized entrance wound in the top rear of his skull, and a gaping exit wound in the top right rear section. The "back and to the left" thing is complete Hollywood, not how human beings actually respond when they're shot in real life. That was thoroughly debunked long ago but people still cling to their impressions from watching action movies, not real forensic science.

Ironically, one of the leading conspiracy theorists, a videographer named Robert Groden who runs a memorabilia kiosk in Dealey Plaza, was part of the 1998 forensic reenactment. They used laser pointers to backtrack to teh source of the shots, after a very thorough surveying and very precise measurements of the location of the limo and the position of Connally and JFK at the time of the shots. They even made sure to pull back the limbs of the trees in front of the TSBD building, which had grown during the intervening 35 years, to recreate the field of view from teh 6th floor window.

They filmed Groden raving on and on about where the grassy-knoll gunman was who allegedly fired the headshot. Then after everbody agreed on the exact position of JFK and the exact nature of the wounds, they ran the laser pointer and proved conclusively that it was impossible for any of teh shots to have come from anywhere other than from the right rear of the limo. And the real forensic experts on the panel very patiently explained to Groden why his little theories were completely inaccurate and based on fantasy, not reality.

That reenactment (which was improved upon in 2003, this time with 3D computer modeling) showed that it was possible that shots came from teh second floor of the Dal-Tex building across the street and behind the TSBD, but only if the estimated positions of the limo, and JFK's position in it, were pushed right to the extreme edge of teh error-bars of the estimates. In short, only if you fudge the data a little bit. And afaik they never took into account the presence of the followup car (with secret service agents standing on the running boards), which would likely have shielded anybody in the Dal-Text building from a direct line of fire.

So according to very detailed and precise recreations of the assassination, the only possible source for all the shots was the southeast corner window of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository building...the sniper's nest in the area where Oswald worked, where shell casings were recovered that were proven to have been fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle found on that floor and purchased by Oswald, and the window where several witnesses saw a rifle during the shooting.

Sorry folks, I know it sounds bizarre but Oswald was the only gunman, and there has never been any credible evidence that he had any conspirators. Titanic struck an iceberg in just the wrong way, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island happened because of botched safety drills, Andrea Doria and Stockholm collided because the crews of both ships didn't know how to interpret their newfangled radar scopes, Franz Ferdinand was assassinated because his driver took a wrong turn along a parade route, Lincoln was shot because his sole bodyguard popped off to a pub across the street, the Northeast power blackout ten years ago happened because a couple of trees fell on power lines at the exact wrong place and time...and the 35th President of the United States was gunned down by one loser who couldn't fit in anywhere in life.

it happens, and there's no way to prevent it from happening from time to time. That's just life.

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to write that.

[Scott Bails]

Sorry folks, I know it sounds bizarre but Oswald was the only gunman, and there has never been any credible evidence that he had any conspirators. Titanic struck an iceberg in just the wrong way, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island happened because of botched safety drills, Andrea Doria and Stockholm collided because the crews of both ships didn't know how to interpret their newfangled radar scopes, Franz Ferdinand was assassinated because his driver took a wrong turn along a parade route, Lincoln was shot because his sole bodyguard popped off to a pub across the street, the Northeast power blackout ten years ago happened because a couple of trees fell on power lines at the exact wrong place and time...and the 35th President of the United States was gunned down by one loser who couldn't fit in anywhere in life.


Oh yeah, smartypants?!!! What about the moon landing, huh? Obviously a Hollywood soundstage!


Seriously, thanks for that, Terrell. Very nice read. :up

[Rune Blackwings]

I did read somewhere that the bullet did not move upward, as Kennedy's and Connally's seats were not the same height in the car. And then that the zig-zagging could be explained by ricochets.

We'll never really know what happened.

once a bullet enters a human body, it can go any place and do pretty much any thing. there is no steadfast law on where it may be or where it can come out because bone and tissue can affect its path through the body. It also can expand, fragment and whatnot.

[SteveSly]

Ironically, one of the leading conspiracy theorists, a videographer named Robert Groden who runs a memorabilia kiosk in Dealey Plaza, was part of the 1998 forensic reenactment. They used laser pointers to backtrack to teh source of the shots, after a very thorough surveying and very precise measurements of the location of the limo and the position of Connally and JFK at the time of the shots. They even made sure to pull back the limbs of the trees in front of the TSBD building, which had grown during the intervening 35 years, to recreate the field of view from teh 6th floor window.

.

My wife and I were in Dallas back in August and went to Daily plaza, the museum, grassy knoll, the whole shebang. I found it all to be very interesting and historic. When we were up at the memorial in Daily plaza there was a guy there selling DVD’s claiming to have a whole new theory and new film to support some new hypothesis that he had. Supposedly it was based on some new film he had discovered that had never been shown until recently. I wonder if this is the same guy that you mention in your post. I could not figure out how he could be allowed to set up his shop there where he was, but he had a table with a couple of computers and a whole bunch of stuff.

BTW I totally agree with your post and everything that you mention. I have seen and read enough that I am convinced all of the modern forensic evidence points to Oswald as the only shooter most likely acting alone with no support behind him.

Steve Sly

[Rune Blackwings]

I certainly am no expert, and not looking to argue at all. But was the force of this bullet that powerful that it could enter and exit through two people and keep going to re-enter the 2nd person's wrist and then into his thigh?

it was shot from a rather close range for a rifle. If you go to Dallas and see the window where Oswald was (glassed off) amd the X marking where Kennedy was shot, it is not a tremedous distance.

[TerrellMiller]

My wife and I were in Dallas back in August and went to Daily plaza, the museum, grassy knoll, the whole shebang. I found it all to be very interesting and historic. When we were up at the memorial in Daily plaza there was a guy there selling DVD’s claiming to have a whole new theory and new film to support some new hypothesis that he had. Supposedly it was based on some new film he had discovered that had never been shown until recently. I wonder if this is the same guy that you mention in your post. I could not figure out how he could be allowed to set up his shop there where he was, but he had a table with a couple of computers and a whole bunch of stuff.



that may be Robert Groden. He's been running his little kiosk up near the grassy knoll for a long time. Mid-sized guy with gray hair? Groden was arrested for vending without a license a few years ago, I hadn't heard about that until I googled him yesterday. Guess nothing ever changes :(

[TerrellMiller]

Oh yeah, smartypants?!!! What about the moon landing, huh? Obviously a Hollywood soundstage!



OJ was on the crew <g>




Seriously, thanks for that, Terrell. Very nice read. :up


np y'all, and glad you enjoyed it.

[TerrellMiller]

Esquire did a fascinating article about the activities aboard Air Force One, well worth reading:

Flight fromDallas (http://www.esquire.com/features/flight-from-dallas-1013)

[SteveSly]

that may be Robert Groden. He's been running his little kiosk up near the grassy knoll for a long time. Mid-sized guy with gray hair? Groden was arrested for vending without a license a few years ago, I hadn't heard about that until I googled him yesterday. Guess nothing ever changes :(

Yea, I think that was the guy. He was up on the top of the plaze close to where the knoll is. In fact there was a TV crew doing some filiming while were were there, and supposedly they were filming something new ofr him because he had some new "evidence" from a newly discovered "lost" film.

Anyway, if any of you are ever in Dallas I would highly recomend a visit to the museum. It was very interesting.

Steve Sly

[Cats On Glue]

theres only one reason that an accused assasin gets assasinated. anything else is bullshit. it's amazing to me that inteligent people can rationalize it by saying he was upset about his president, or prone to doing crazy things. one would have to be certifiably insane to give up ones own life in order to exact vigilante justice when the accused has already been caught by law enforcement. oswald may have acted alone, but that doesnt mean there wasnt a conspiracy. then when robert got killed, that solidified it. nobody wanted a guy in charge whos brother assasinated, because he might use his power to expose a conspiracy.

i believe he was the patsy. lets assume that he intended to get away with this crime. why leave behind the tracable rifle (and fingerprints), spent shells, lunch bag, etc. ? is this another guy just willing to give up his own life for the cause? maybe he left it all behind because it wasn't suposed to matter. maybe he was supposed to be picked up at some point, instead of scrambling around in the streets of dallas. one of the few things oswald said, and you have to admit he seemed pretty rational, was that he was a patsy. then he got killed. how convenient.

[Tangram]

i believe he was the patsy. lets assume that he intended to get away with this crime. why leave behind the tracable rifle (and fingerprints), spent shells, lunch bag, etc. ? is this another guy just willing to give up his own life for the cause? maybe he left it all behind because it wasn't suposed to matter. maybe he was supposed to be picked up at some point, instead of scrambling around in the streets of dallas. one of the few things oswald said, and you have to admit he seemed pretty rational, was that he was a patsy. then he got killed. how convenient.

There are several questions that pop up if you believe he didn't do it or it was a conspiracy. How do you expect to walk around with a rifle in a town after the President has been shot? How does one get a car to pull up to a building people are looking at that's on the parade route and closed to the public to pick him up? Why does he go to a movie theater in the middle the work day? Why did he shoot the policeman who wanted to ask him a question? Why does he leave most all of his money and wedding ring at his estranged wife's house in the morning? If it was a conspiracy, why was he not taken out before he got out of the building and could have gone anywhere? It's awfully sloppy to assume he wouldn't be caught.

[NeonKnight]

I learned a few things with all the JFK specials on this week:

I did not know about Oswald's attempt on General Walker in the months previous to the assassination. That was kind of a dry run for Oswald, and shows how loony he actually was. He was pissed at JFK over Cuba and was involved in some pro Castro group in New Orleans before returning to Dallas.

Bugilosi also points out if there was a conspiracy involving Ruby, why did Jack go on to live for 3 years before dying from natural causes? If he knew anything else, he would have been eliminated fast.

[Yves]

How is this NOT a political thread?

[Gruno]

I enjoyed watching some of the specials that aired last week. I still have some on the DVR but I will hold off on watching. It was a bit of overload for me. Save it for a rainy day.

[Casey]

Cats, ever hear the phrase, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy"?

Or, "Truth is stranger than fiction"?

Any & every issue that you find so unbelieveable can be explained. With reason & logic. Ever lightly rub a pane of glass with your finger? Smooth, isn't it? Then take a look at that surface under an electron microscope.

If Officer Tippit hadn't stopped him, Oswald might have gotten away very easily. Sure, the investigating authorities would have had his fingerprints, but it wouldn't have done them any good. They didn't know who they were looking for until they made the connection with the unexpected death of Tippit.

[Scott Bails]

How is this NOT a political thread?

What's political about it? The discussion is about the assassination and various conspiracy theories.

[Cats On Glue]

Cats, ever hear the phrase, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy"?

Or, "Truth is stranger than fiction"?

Any & every issue that you find so unbelieveable can be explained. With reason & logic. Ever lightly rub a pane of glass with your finger? Smooth, isn't it? Then take a look at that surface under an electron microscope.

If Officer Tippit hadn't stopped him, Oswald might have gotten away very easily. Sure, the investigating authorities would have had his fingerprints, but it wouldn't have done them any good. They didn't know who they were looking for until they made the connection with the unexpected death of Tippit.

casey, they were apparently able to trace the rifle purchase to oswald pretty quickly. i dont remember that any effort was made to conceal the origin of the rifle. people tend to look at kennedy conspiracists as if their theories leave a lot to the imagination. however debunkers ask you to believe some pretty weird stories too. everybody is just psycho. lol oswald, ruby, sirhan, ray. casey, ever hear the phrase "where theres smoke, theres fire" ? theres too much smoke for me to ignore on this one.

[Cats On Glue]

There are several questions that pop up if you believe he didn't do it or it was a conspiracy. How do you expect to walk around with a rifle in a town after the President has been shot? How does one get a car to pull up to a building people are looking at that's on the parade route and closed to the public to pick him up? Why does he go to a movie theater in the middle the work day? Why did he shoot the policeman who wanted to ask him a question? Why does he leave most all of his money and wedding ring at his estranged wife's house in the morning? If it was a conspiracy, why was he not taken out before he got out of the building and could have gone anywhere? It's awfully sloppy to assume he wouldn't be caught.
good questions that we'll never know the answer to. as to why he wasn't taken out in the building, well maybe the plan hadn't gone bad yet. look you all contend that this assasin was crazy but he obviously planned how he was going to do this right/ he didn't just dream it up 5 minutes before kennedys car turned the corner. yet, he made little effort to actually get away with the crime. i don't think the craziest person hopes to shoot a president and leave all kinds of evidence, most importantly, a rifle he owned.

[Casey]

If you discount the desire to murder someone, Oswald wasn't crazy. Stupid, maybe. But not crazy.

He tried to get away. You don't leave the scene of a murder-by-gunshot carrying your weapon. He might as well have remained in his sniper's perch or left the building screaming "I killed Kennedy!"

So, let's agree that he took into account that, by leaving his rifle behind, he would eventually be connected with that rifle once the investigating officers found it & did their research. How long would that connection have taken in the age before the internet? And, during this interval, where would Oswald have gone? He certainly wasn't planning on returning to his home. Most likely he would have disappeared in Mexico.

And remember the photograph of Oswald posing with the rifle. He WANTED the world to know & remember the connection between himself & his intended victim, either Kennedy or Connolly.

[NeonKnight]

And remember the photograph of Oswald posing with the rifle. He WANTED the world to know & remember the connection between himself & his intended victim, either Kennedy or Connolly.

I agree with your analysis, but I think the photo was taken right before he attempted to kill General Walker, so that was his original intent with the photo, I believe.

[Cats On Glue]

"So, let's agree that he took into account that, by leaving his rifle behind, he would eventually be connected with that rifle once the investigating officers found it & did their research. How long would that connection have taken in the age before the internet? And, during this interval, where would Oswald have gone? He certainly wasn't planning on returning to his home. Most likely he would have disappeared in Mexico"

casey i enjoy discussing this stuff. not picking a fight, just having fun conversation.

so. you ask about how easy it would have been to get away in the pre internet days, knowing that making the connection to the gun might might buy him time. however, how difficult would it have been for him to wear gloves? how difficult to conceal before hand the serial numbers or whatever people do. he was in the army, he was a good shot apparantly he should know this stuff right?. i mean, even just having himself pictured with the very gun. he must have sneaked the rifle in to the building at some point prior. this was no squeeky from or david chapman or real crazy people who just shoot and don't care about getting caught. sometimes when the evidence comes too easy, it makes me suspicious.

[Cats On Glue]

"Oh yeah, smartypants?!!! What about the moon landing, huh? Obviously a Hollywood soundstage!"

sure you were making an innocent joke. i wouldn't laugh too hard though. the technique is as old as the hills and the same one used by those who want to get away with things. lump a serious potential conspiracy in with the most absurd and laughable of conspiracy theories thus making both issues seem trivial and stupid. congrats on doing the same thing as the cia and other secret agencies that plot to get away with things. their mos important strategy is always to discredit and make assertions about the mental capacities of those who question the official story.

so sure, you made all of us who don't fully believe the official story feel like tin hat wearing weirdos. congrats i feel so humiliated now. lol the only ones laughing harder than me are the people that count on people like you to make fun of those who question.

[Cats On Glue]

" Bugilosi also points out if there was a conspiracy involving Ruby, why did Jack go on to live for 3 years before dying from natural causes? If he knew anything else, he would have been eliminated fast. "

so let me understand this. a guy is willing to basicly give up his life to silence/kill a guy, but then he has to fear being silenced? how about the guy who theoreticly aliminates ruby, does he have to be eliminated too? hahaha ruby was doing a job. you don't do a job, then immediately blab. you do your time and shut up.

in this sad story there was plenty of testimony of events that differed from the official story. you choose to listen to the ones that fit your desired outcome and you discard the rest. what motivation was there for the waren commission to expose, for a example, a cia conspracy to kill kennedy? talk about turning the country topsy turvy. what effects would it have on the country? it could lend creedance to those trying to pin other world events on the cia. and we certainly know that without question, theres has been a dirty business.

so let me ask. if the warren comiss found out , for example, that it was an internal thing with cia/military ties - would it be in their best interest, in the best interest of the nation to expose this? of course not. so why anybody would expect anything but the least disturbing and threatening scenario from the govt is laughable. same with martin luther king. do you want the nation knowing that the powers that be became concerned about the power being accumulated by the leader of an angry segment of society who were shit upon and discriminated against and had to sit at the back of the bus? no no no of course it was just a lone nut who decided king had to die. wake up people. this stuff happens all over the world all the time. govts squash revolution before it gets out of hand. yet somehow, the usa seems to be the only country in the world apparently where things like this just do not happen. lol i got news for you. the usa has/had the most money, themost power, the most t lose or gain. it's the big enchilada. if distasteful stuff happens in other countries, you bet yer as it happens here,.

[Casey]

Remember Tommy Lee Jones in "Men In Black" when he picks up the tabloid newspapers & says to Will Smith, "This is the REAL news."

Good night, Irene!

[Cats On Glue]

that kind of talk makes you uncomfortable casey?

[Casey]

No, not at all. I just find it full of wishful thinking & the subversion of facts to reach a desired conclusion. If you stare at the moon long enough you can see a face. Is there really a face on the illuminated side of the moon? Some people were convinced of it.

[Cats On Glue]

there you go again walter. lump us in with the face on the moon crowd. :) i get where your coming from, its all good

[TerrellMiller]

" Bugilosi also points out if there was a conspiracy involving Ruby, why did Jack go on to live for 3 years before dying from natural causes? If he knew anything else, he would have been eliminated fast. "

so let me understand this. a guy is willing to basicly give up his life to silence/kill a guy, but then he has to fear being silenced? how about the guy who theoreticly aliminates ruby, does he have to be eliminated too?


that's precisely the problem with your scenario. Too many people know too much about a capital offense, so the "cleaning" has to go on and on and on.





hahaha ruby was doing a job. you don't do a job, then immediately blab. you do your time and shut up.



Ruby wasn't facing "doing time", he was facing a capital murder charge. As in, execution. He had nothing to lose by telling everything he knew if he'd been part of a conspiracy. It would only have been a matter of him trying to ration it out to get the most favorable treatment he could in the circumstances.




in this sad story there was plenty of testimony of events that differed from the official story. you choose to listen to the ones that fit your desired outcome and you discard the rest.


NO, we choose to listen to the ones that are based on fact, not on rumor and sheer speculation, such as...




what motivation was there for the waren commission to expose, for a example, a cia conspracy to kill kennedy? talk about turning the country topsy turvy. what effects would it have on the country? it could lend creedance to those trying to pin other world events on the cia. and we certainly know that without question, theres has been a dirty business.



...this. You're assuming a conspiracy, and then trying to shape the evidence and people's behaviour to fit that theory. Instead of fitting your theory to the actual evidence.

Imagination and creativity are wonderful things when you're creating a work of art. When you're trying to make sense of actual human events...not so much.




same with martin luther king. do you want the nation knowing that the powers that be became concerned about the power being accumulated by the leader of an angry segment of society who were shit upon and discriminated against and had to sit at the back of the bus? no no no of course it was just a lone nut who decided king had to die.



you do realize that having the most visible and beloved leader of the civil rights movement gunned down was the absolute last thing the government wanted, right? Specifically because it would virtually guarantee riots and uprisings?

And have you forgotten that, not only did JFK work closely with MLK and other civil rights leaders to advance their cause (immediately after MLK's "I have a dream" speech he met with Kennedy in teh Oval Office), but that MLK was one of the first people LBJ called after he took office, and they both pledged their firm support for one another?



wake up people. this stuff happens all over the world all the time. govts squash revolution before it gets out of hand. yet somehow, the usa seems to be the only country in the world apparently where things like this just do not happen. lol i got news for you. the usa has/had the most money, themost power, the most t lose or gain. it's the big enchilada. if distasteful stuff happens in other countries, you bet yer as it happens here,.


so what does any of that have to do with the Kennedy assassination?

[TerrellMiller]

theres only one reason that an accused assasin gets assasinated.



nope. As I mentioned before, there was widespread talk that whoever the assassin was, he would never be taken alive, within the first half hour of the shooting. And when Oswald was arrested at the Texas Theater, the police had to hustle him into a squad car and force their way through the lynch mob that had gathered. There were plenty of average citizens in Dallas and the rest of the country that day who would have gladly killed him given the slightest chance.



anything else is bullshit. it's amazing to me that inteligent people can rationalize it by saying he was upset about his president, or prone to doing crazy things. one would have to be certifiably insane to give up ones own life in order to exact vigilante justice when the accused has already been caught by law enforcement. oswald may have acted alone, but that doesnt mean there wasnt a conspiracy. then when robert got killed, that solidified it. nobody wanted a guy in charge whos brother assasinated, because he might use his power to expose a conspiracy.



again...you've decided there was a conspiracy, and you're shaping what people did (or in this case, would have done) to fit your theory.





i believe he was the patsy. lets assume that he intended to get away with this crime. why leave behind the tracable rifle (and fingerprints), spent shells, lunch bag, etc. ? is this another guy just willing to give up his own life for the cause? maybe he left it all behind because it wasn't suposed to matter. maybe he was supposed to be picked up at some point, instead of scrambling around in the streets of dallas. one of the few things oswald said, and you have to admit he seemed pretty rational, was that he was a patsy. then he got killed. how convenient.


others have mentioned the impossibility of escaping with the rifle. Oswald could simply look down at the street and see the police motorcycles rushing to the front of his building, and it didn't take a genius to figure out he had only a few moments to get away. He could have just left the rifle in his sniper's nest, but he took a few seconds to try to hide it to give himself more time.

He didn't have any kind of plan for how he would get away. To give you an idea, after walking out the front of the TSBD he walked up Main Street and then took a bus that was headed back into Dealey Plaza. Does that sound like a carefully-planned "operation" to you?

And Oswald ran his mouth a lot that weekend, basically any time a reporter shoved a mike or a steno pad at him. Yes, he was very calm and composed given the circumstances. A lot of criminals are, it's one of the hallmarks of psychopathic disorders.

[TerrellMiller]

so. you ask about how easy it would have been to get away in the pre internet days, knowing that making the connection to the gun might might buy him time. however, how difficult would it have been for him to wear gloves? how difficult to conceal before hand the serial numbers or whatever people do. he was in the army, he was a good shot apparantly he should know this stuff right?. i mean, even just having himself pictured with the very gun. he must have sneaked the rifle in to the building at some point prior. this was no squeeky from or david chapman or real crazy people who just shoot and don't care about getting caught. sometimes when the evidence comes too easy, it makes me suspicious.


fingerprints were hardly necessary to trace Oswald to the assassination. He was the only employee at work that day who was missing once the police sealed the entrances. Kinda narrowed it down a bit. Filing off serial numbers is mostly Hollywood afaik. Oswald wasn't in the army, he was a Marine. And he was actually a poor shot. Right after boot camp he scored at the bottom of the middle ranking (marksman-sharpshooter-expert), then three years later right before he was discharged he just barely got the lowest "marksman" rating. But it was an easy shot, not much more than basic proficiency required. The evening before the assassination he caught a ride back to the suburban house where his wife and kids were staying, retrieved the rifle, concealed it in a brown paper bag he'd made from teh shipping materials at work, and brought it with him to work that morning.

[Cats On Glue]

terrell it seems to me at times that you and others have decided there's no conspiracy and are shaping your view of things based on it. :) Again, two cold, calculated assainations, and in order to fit your theory, we have to deduce that Ruby was just a distraught american upset about the loss of his president. So my ideas are a stretch, but that is not.

"As I mentioned before, there was widespread talk that whoever the assassin was, he would never be taken alive, within the first half hour of the shooting. And when Oswald was arrested at the Texas Theater, the police had to hustle him into a squad car and force their way through the lynch mob that had gathered. There were plenty of average citizens in Dallas and the rest of the country that day who would have gladly killed him given the slightest chance"

come on terrell, that's more stretch on your part. He was not liked in the south. oswald was not proven guilty of anything yet. is that the way americans like their justice? lets get the guy before we even know for sure it's him? word on the street was that he wasn't going to be taken in alive???? this is how you solve the ruby dilemna?? hahahhaha and i'm the dreamer...

and how it was so easy to point at Oswald because he was the only one missing after they sealed off TSBD. That makes the guy a murder suspect? Wow. You can disect the points i mention and call them imagination, but you never look at the imagination required to settle on your points.

[Cats On Glue]

jackie knew - "they've killed him" " i want people to see what theyve done to him" didn't seem to me through tghe whole thing that she thought it was anything but a conspiracy.

and your ruby argument still doesn't make sense. so he kills oswald knowing its a capital offence, but then will turn around and rat. thats a death sentence too. i know you think ruby is crazy, but i don't think he's that crazy. some people also say that his naturakl causes death was anything but.

"NO, we choose to listen to the ones that are based on fact, not on rumor and sheer speculation, such as..."

it was an example. answer the question - if, and i mean if somebody discovered that it was cia or military , would this be exposed and brought to the country? we both know the answer. it would be swept under the rug. just like every president immediately pardons the president before him. they are afraid of what it would do to the nation.

"And have you forgotten that, not only did JFK work closely with MLK and other civil rights leaders to advance their cause (immediately after MLK's "I have a dream" speech he met with Kennedy in teh Oval Office), but that MLK was one of the first people LBJ called after he took office, and they both pledged their firm support for one another?"

and, this means what exactly? did i say the presidents killed mlk?


"so what does any of that have to do with the Kennedy assassination? "

it means that politics is a dirty business world wide. the usa is not exempt from that. we are no different than any other country. theres lots of power and money at stake. yet strangely, it seems only lone nuts who have nothing to gain commit all the political acts of violence. we don't trust government except when it comes to these type things then we believe every word? i understand, nobody wants to face the reality. we still see it every day, with the wars we conduct and the covert operations, drugs for arms, all that stuff. as a nation, the preference is to have head in the sand. and everybody sleeps well. if you don't want to admit that the cia, for example, is capable of just about anything, then of course you won't consider that there are sometimes conspiracies. why is it that in a regular murde, there is protocol in investigations. the first to look at is who had the most to gain. it wasn''t oswald thats for sure. and what did ruby have to gain? ohhh ya, we got a country full of crazy folk.

so why did robert kennedy get killed? why did johnson not want to run again? do you know of any other politician to just give up his seat at the head of the table - the table being the free world?

[Cats On Glue]

btw, i think robert was killed because of the fear that he would pursue the conspiray. they weren't going to let that play out - the brother of the slain leader looking for revenge. look how the usa got fucked without vaseline when w decided to get revenge for the suppoesed hit on his daddy

[Casey]

When I was in grade school my mother was hit by a car. Three newspapers reported the story. Each got her age wrong, two misspelled her name, & two got the wrong make & model of the car. So, was she involved in a motor vehicle accident or was it a conspiracy set up by my parents to get out of buying their children Christmas presents that year?

When I was living in Seattle there was a guy who had his own public access television program. All he did was try to construct different scenarios as to how Curt Cobain was assassinated by the government. And this about a guy who tried more than once to off himself.

Cats, what's your take on Marilyn Monroe? The moon landing? The '69 Mets?

[Cats On Glue]

lol see what i mean? it always reverts back to association with lesser serious topics. you all cannot help yourselfs, its like a defence mechanism. and like i said earlier to scott its as old as the hills. surely im not the only one who considers the conspiracy angle on the kennedy case. and most surely even smarter and more respected people than me. yet we've had reference to fake moon landing, face on the moon, curt cobain and the 69 mets. you see/ you have no respect or consideration whatsoever for any other possibility in the kenndey cases. and i understand, it keeps people comfortable. so no worry.

for the record - because apperently one has to prove sanity if they choose to consider a kennedy conspiacy - i believe they landed on the moon. the govt didnt kill cobain. no opinion on marilyn because i haven't read enough about it, tho suicide does not seem a stretch ive known people who have comitted suicide theres no ryme or reason to it. i dont think that serpentine aliens live amongst us. I believe in the soul, the cock, the pussy, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I dont believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days.

[Scott Bails]

lol see what i mean? it always reverts back to association with lesser serious topics. you all cannot help yourselfs, its like a defence mechanism. and like i said earlier to scott its as old as the hills. surely im not the only one who considers the conspiracy angle on the kennedy case. and most surely even smarter and more respected people than me. yet we've had reference to fake moon landing, face on the moon, curt cobain and the 69 mets. you see/ you have no respect or consideration whatsoever for any other possibility in the kenndey cases. and i understand, it keeps people comfortable. so no worry.

Only because there's no evidence that supports any of it.



I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter.

Well, we agree on something. ;)

[Casey]

I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter (&) opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve

I with you all the way on these points.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[JKL2000]

Sorry folks, I know it sounds bizarre but Oswald was the only gunman, and there has never been any credible evidence that he had any conspirators. Titanic struck an iceberg in just the wrong way, Chernobyl and Three Mile Island happened because of botched safety drills, Andrea Doria and Stockholm collided because the crews of both ships didn't know how to interpret their newfangled radar scopes, Franz Ferdinand was assassinated because his driver took a wrong turn along a parade route, Lincoln was shot because his sole bodyguard popped off to a pub across the street, the Northeast power blackout ten years ago happened because a couple of trees fell on power lines at the exact wrong place and time...and the 35th President of the United States was gunned down by one loser who couldn't fit in anywhere in life.

it happens, and there's no way to prevent it from happening from time to time. That's just life.

I'm with you!

Are there persistent conspiracy theories for any other assassinations or attempted assassinations of US presidents?

[Cats On Glue]

"Only because there's no evidence that supports any of it"

or evidence that is ignored because it doesnt fit in to the pre concieved idea that a lone loser did it. depends which way you look at it. for example there were people that heard more than 3 shots. that was dismissed because they must have been wrong because we already know there was only 3 shots. must have been echos. seems that any time somebody has recolections different than official, their cometency, hearing, sight, psychological state, are put in to question. if none of those, then they are just out to make a buck somehow. those that testify to the official version are sane and have no desire to make a buck. people have questioned these events for 50 years. but one guy writes a bokk 50 years later that the case is closed, and that's it, case closed. ever think that maybe he had a fresh idea to make money? everybody else writes conspiracy books, i'll write a detailed analisis of why there was no conspiracy. just as plausible.



what did oswald say when he was allowed to speak to the press?

[Scott Bails]

Right - because eyewitness accounts are always the most reliable sources of information. :roll


C'mon, man.

[Cats On Glue]

"The evening before the assassination he caught a ride back to the suburban house where his wife and kids were staying, retrieved the rifle, concealed it in a brown paper bag he'd made from teh shipping materials at work, and brought it with him to work that morning. "

and he was able to sneak in a rifle in a brown paper bag? i'm going to try that at work tomorow. lol

"He didn't have any kind of plan for how he would get away. To give you an idea, after walking out the front of the TSBD he walked up Main Street and then took a bus that was headed back into Dealey Plaza. Does that sound like a carefully-planned "operation" to you?"

"Yes, he was very calm and composed given the circumstances. A lot of criminals are, it's one of the hallmarks of psychopathic disorders"

hahahaha sure a lot of criminals are, but was oswald? think about how many times your theories ask for interpretation in a very circumstantial way. you don't see it because it is you that fits the story around your belief. i don't have a story, i just know it's not the official story and i throw out possibilities. all i have to go by is that a very collected man is saying that he is innocent, he is a patsy, he needs a lawyer etc. however i can rest assured that lots of guilty criminals do this. case closed! oswald was reaching out for help of any kind because he knew he was toast after getting caught. that simple. interesting the suspect in question used the word patsy. i wonder why. another criminal trait, to quickly forge a conspiracy angle? i mean he literaly could have thought of anything to say. but he said he was a patsy. hmm. quick thinking lee , you fucked peoples minds for 50 years. well played! then he was killed.


no criminal unless he's of the totally brain dead type plans to kill and doesn't plan to get away. something went awry. dont know what. by your estimates, oswald pretty well planned to be caught. lol

[Cats On Glue]

"Right - because eyewitness accounts are always the most reliable sources of information."

of course not, it doesn't fit your own feelings. how about the eye witness that saw oswald at the tsbd, in the caf etc. . is that reliable? sure, people saw him. allllllll that eyewitnes testimony is real good. lol you make me laugh. sit down and think to yourself how often eyewitness testimony has been usefull and solid in the justice system. instead of just thinking about how useless it is because that would destroy what you already believe.

[Cats On Glue]

people have been picked out of lines and sent to jail for life. how come they don't scrap that system altogether if its so lousy/

[Cats On Glue]

so, then am i too assume that the case closed author uses no eyewitness testimony? lol in fact, he gives you people that he talked to that confirmed that ruby was prone to crazy things! others testified that he was depressed. so the several people who heard more than 3 shots are unreliable, but those that attested to rubys psychology were band on and solid! hahahaha

you see scott, im just pointing out that we all have our pre detrmined opinion and we all shape the evidence we see to fit that. you and your points are as ridiculous to me as mine are to you. the only difference is that i don't profes to know the truth. i'm justsaying that there's enough intereting evidence to make a possibility. in my own opinion a good possibility

[Cats On Glue]

and quit rolling your eyes at me like im a retard. im not the first person to suspect something wrong in this case, am i/

[Plasmatopia]

I don't know which side of this argument this would be more damning to:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/09/new-study-politics-makes-you-innumerate

[Scott Bails]

and quit rolling your eyes at me like im a retard.

:roll

You just lost whatever credibility you may have had.

[Cats On Glue]

you have to have some to lose some, im pretty sure. im sorry if i offended, can we get back to your eye rolling now? i know that it makes you feel smarter to accent your points with a condesending icon, but ever think that you could be losing your credibility by talking down to people who you think are not as smart as you. almost as bad as calling somebodya retard.

[Cats On Glue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJFzhbNd1EI

[Cats On Glue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSXQYvm57YM

[Cats On Glue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IeDRov7zutY

[Banquo]

btw, i think robert was killed because of the fear that he would pursue the conspiray. they weren't going to let that play out - the brother of the slain leader looking for revenge. look how the usa got fucked without vaseline when w decided to get revenge for the suppoesed hit on his daddy

Now you're talking out of your ass.

[Cats On Glue]

its easily as believable as the lone crazy foreign sounding guy.

[Banquo]

its easily as believable as the lone crazy foreign sounding guy.


Mmmkaay, except that nobody believe's that but you. :roll.

There's no doubt that RFK struggled with JFK's assassination, but he was, at the time, the 2nd most powerful man on the planet, and arguably much more intelligent than his older brother. Even with his weakened status post-JFK, he could've solved the whole goddamned thing in two weeks with the resources that he had if that's what he really wanted to do, and if it needed doing.

[Cats On Glue]

good point. though johnson hated bobby, so not sure how far he would have gotten, especially if johnson could be implicated in any way. and maybe for his own safety and that of his family bobby let it be at that time with the idea that revenge is a dish best served cold.

"Even with his weakened status post-JFK, he could've solved the whole goddamned thing in two weeks with the resources that he had if that's what he really wanted to do, and if it needed doing"

well if there was conspiracy here, do you really think it would have been that easy to go to a nation and expose a sinister plot within the govt? how far do you think johnson would let him get? people would just pass it off as a mourning brother lashing out anyway. i think bobby knew the truth but had to be very calculated about exposing it, for his own saftey. somebody just made sure that would never happen.

[Banquo]

well if there was conspiracy here, do you really think it would have been that easy to go to a nation and expose a sinister plot within the govt? how far do you think johnson would let him get? people would just pass it off as a mourning brother lashing out anyway. i think bobby knew the truth but had to be very calculated about exposing it, for his own saftey. somebody just made sure that would never happen.

Your's is a very simplified supposition for such an extremely convoluted theory. But we'll never really know, will we? ;)

[Cats On Glue]

hey im a simple man. ;)
fact is that things do go un-exposed all the time for national security reasons, correct? So what might the results be if the warren commssion found out for example that there was a conspiracy and it involved johnson? no way not in the height of the cold war. too much fear and perceived political instability etc.

[Banquo]

So what might the results be if the warren commssion found out for example that there was a conspiracy and it involved johnson? I don't believe LBJ to be an evil man who would conspire to murder his predecessor for his own gain or for what might have been his idea of the betterment of this country. The only problem I have with Johnson was the escalation of Vietnam and what it took away from the programs initiated under "Great Society". Johnson was closer to Lincoln than any other Democrat (or Republican) President in modern times.

[Plasmatopia]

Interesting some of the language I see used in this discussion. Check out this video from about the 42-minute mark:


http://youtu.be/Ddz2mw2vaEg

[Cats On Glue]

that was interesting

[Cats On Glue]

highly recommend that whole video it's a real sincere effort.

[Cats On Glue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWsAoWqc52w

[Banquo]

^^^

Well, I did find that to be interesting. If nothing else it reveals Oswald to be far more intelligent than he's normally portrayed. It also didn't help that he had that "Goober Pyle" look about him.

[Cats On Glue]

theres always patches of dodgy info in these documenteries, but enough thought provoking stuff to make one wonder.