Gabriel-era Genesis... who wrote what songs??

[Trane]

I know this has been done on PE2.0, but since it's again down, can the person (bill g, maybe??) who held the list in that thread repost it here ... because the 2.0 info will disappear no matter what, but its perenity on PE3.0 is better assured..

Thanks

[BravadoNJ]

i recently got the Genesis Live box set. although it's great to now have all the live albums (i only had 'Live' & 'Europe 2007), i was very disappointed that the 3 DVD's were audio DVD's..... what a rip off. :down

[Scott Bails]

i recently got the Genesis Live box set. although it's great to now have all the live albums (i only had 'Live' & 'Europe 2007), i was very disappointed that the 3 DVD's were audio DVD's..... what a rip off. :down

You didn't read what was in the box before you bought it?

It's only a rip-off if they didn't reveal what was inside.


I know this has been done on PE2.0, but since it's again down, can the person (bill g, maybe??) who held the list in that thread repost it here ... because the 2.0 info will disappear no matter what, but its perenity on PE3.0 is better assured..

Thanks


Yeah, I think that was bill g. There was someone else who's name escapes me (so sorry!) who also had some great insights on this stuff.

I'd hate to lose all that.

[ca1ore]

i recently got the Genesis Live box set. although it's great to now have all the live albums (i only had 'Live' & 'Europe 2007), i was very disappointed that the 3 DVD's were audio DVD's..... what a rip off. :down

There were two boxed sets of live material. One clearly identified as the audio albums; the other as the videos. Not sure why this represents a rip off. Just return the one you got for the other.

[Trane]

Yeah, I think that was bill g. There was someone else who's name escapes me (so sorry!) who also had some great insights on this stuff.

I'd hate to lose all that.

well it doesn'thave to bill who reposts it... Hopefully somebody copy-pasted it somewhere...

I meant to, but didn't have the time/opportunity

[bill g]

TRESPASS

Looking For Someone (Banks-Gabriel-Phillips-Rutherford)
White Mountain (Phillips-Rutherford)
Visions of Angels (Phillips)
Stagnation (Phillips-Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel)
Dusk (Phillips-Rutherford)
The Knife (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford-Phillips)

NURSERY CRYME

The Musical Box (Phillips-Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
For Absent Friends (Hackett-Collins)
The Return of the Giant Hogweed (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins)
Seven Stones (Banks) or (Banks-Hackett)
Harold the Barrel (Gabriel)
Harlequin (Rutherford-Banks)
The Fountain of Salmacis (Banks-Collins-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett)

FOXTROT

Watcher of the Skies (Banks-Rutherford)
Time Table (Banks)
Get 'Em Out by Friday (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Collins-Hackett)
Can Utility and the Coastliners (Hackett-Banks)
Horizons (Hackett)
Suppers Ready
a. Lovers Leap (Banks-Gabriel)
b. The Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man (Banks-Gabriel)
c. Ikhnaton and Itsacon and Their Band of Merry Men (Rutherford-Banks-Hackett-Gabriel)
d. How Dare I Be So Beautiful? (Gabriel-Banks)
e. Willow Farm (Gabriel)
f. Apocalypse in 9/8 (Banks-Collins-Gabriel-Hackett-Rutherford)
g. As Sure as Eggs is Eggs (Banks-Gabriel)

SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND

Dancing With The Moonlit Knight (Gabriel-Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Collins)
I Know What I Like (Hackett-Banks-Gabriel)
Firth of Fifth (Banks)
More Fool Me (Rutherford-Collins)
The Battle of Epping Forest (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Collins-Hackett)
After The Ordeal (Hackett-Rutherford)
Cinema Show (Banks-Rutherford-Collins)
Aisle of Plenty (Gabriel-Hackett)

THE LAMB LIES DOWN ON BROADWAY

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (Banks-Gabriel)
Fly on a Windshield (Banks-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins-Gabriel)
Broadway Melody of 1974 (Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel)
Cuckoo Cocoon (Hackett-Gabriel)
In the Cage (Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel-Hackett-Collins)
The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford)
Back In NYC (Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
Hairless Heart (Hackett)
Counting Out Time (Gabriel)
The Carpet Crawlers (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford)
The Chamber of 32 Doors (Gabriel-Banks)
Lilywhite Lilith (Banks-Rutherford-Collins-Gabriel)
The Waiting Room (Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Colliins-Gabriel)
Anyway (Banks-Gabriel)
The Supernatural Anaesthitist (Hackett-Gabriel)
The Lamia (Banks-Gabriel)
Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats (Rutherford-Banks-Hackett-Collins-Gabriel)
The Colony of Slipperman (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins)
Ravine (Rutherford-Banks)
The Light Dies Down on Broadway (Banks-Rutherford)
Riding The Scree (Banks-Collins-Gabriel)
In The Rapids (Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
It (Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Gabriel-Collins)

Not 100% on everything, and I made a couple adjustments from the PE2 list, such as Cinema Show, which I thought lyrics by Gabriel/Banks, and wikipedia says Banks/Rutherford.

[Trane]

Thanks, Bill :D

[bill g]

Thanks, Bill :D

My pleasure!

[JIF]

TRESPASS

Looking For Someone (Banks-Gabriel-Phillips-Rutherford)
White Mountain (Phillips-Rutherford)
Visions of Angels (Phillips)
Stagnation (Phillips-Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel)
Dusk (Phillips-Rutherford)
The Knife (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford-Phillips)

NURSERY CRYME

The Musical Box (Phillips-Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
For Absent Friends (Hackett-Collins)
The Return of the Giant Hogweed (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins)
Seven Stones (Banks) or (Banks-Hackett)
Harold the Barrel (Gabriel)
Harlequin (Rutherford-Banks)
The Fountain of Salmacis (Banks-Collins-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett)

FOXTROT

Watcher of the Skies (Banks-Rutherford)
Time Table (Banks)
Get 'Em Out by Friday (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Collins-Hackett)
Can Utility and the Coastliners (Hackett-Banks)
Horizons (Hackett)
Suppers Ready
a. Lovers Leap (Banks-Gabriel)
b. The Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man (Banks-Gabriel)
c. Ikhnaton and Itsacon and Their Band of Merry Men (Rutherford-Banks-Hackett-Gabriel)
d. How Dare I Be So Beautiful? (Gabriel-Banks)
e. Willow Farm (Gabriel)
f. Apocalypse in 9/8 (Banks-Collins-Gabriel-Hackett-Rutherford)
g. As Sure as Eggs is Eggs (Banks-Gabriel)

SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND

Dancing With The Moonlit Knight (Gabriel-Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Collins)
I Know What I Like (Hackett-Banks-Gabriel)
Firth of Fifth (Banks)
More Fool Me (Rutherford-Collins)
The Battle of Epping Forest (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Collins-Hackett)
After The Ordeal (Hackett-Rutherford)
Cinema Show (Banks-Rutherford-Collins)
Aisle of Plenty (Gabriel-Hackett)

THE LAMB LIES DOWN ON BROADWAY

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (Banks-Gabriel)
Fly on a Windshield (Banks-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins-Gabriel)
Broadway Melody of 1974 (Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel)
Cuckoo Cocoon (Hackett-Gabriel)
In the Cage (Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel-Hackett-Collins)
The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford)
Back In NYC (Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
Hairless Heart (Hackett)
Counting Out Time (Gabriel)
The Carpet Crawlers (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford)
The Chamber of 32 Doors (Gabriel-Banks)
Lilywhite Lilith (Banks-Rutherford-Collins-Gabriel)
The Waiting Room (Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Colliins-Gabriel)
Anyway (Banks-Gabriel)
The Supernatural Anaesthitist (Hackett-Gabriel)
The Lamia (Banks-Gabriel)
Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats (Rutherford-Banks-Hackett-Collins-Gabriel)
The Colony of Slipperman (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins)
Ravine (Rutherford-Banks)
The Light Dies Down on Broadway (Banks-Rutherford)
Riding The Scree (Banks-Collins-Gabriel)
In The Rapids (Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
It (Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Gabriel-Collins)

Not 100% on everything, and I made a couple adjustments from the PE2 list, such as Cinema Show, which I thought lyrics by Gabriel/Banks, and wikipedia says Banks/Rutherford.I was the one the edited Wikipedia, because I read on the old Genesis website(in the FAQ section) that Banks/Rutherford co-wrote Cinema Show together. Wikipedia also stated that it was Steve and Mike that played acoutic guitar on More Fool(or just Steve); can't remember. I know that's incorrect, because Steve was only credited with electric and classical guitars in the SEBTP liner notes, and I don't hear any classical guitar on More Fool Me. So, I assumed it was Mike or Tony(or Mike by himself) playing acoustic. It would make sense it being Mike, since he co-wrote that song with Phil. I remember from watching old Genesis interviews(including the ones in the boxsets), and remember the band members saying something that they wanted to prove with the first couple of Peter-less albums how much they wrote by including individual song writing credits. There was also a comment by Peter saying that his ego got hurt by this, because people had originally thought that he did everything in the band. Then, after he left, they assumed he didn't do much(or something like that). I guess those credits above speak for themselves. I guess that Tony and Mike did a lot of writing, too.

[Banks]

Hi guys!

Could you please reveal the sources of those informations. There are two or three facts that seem inacurate. I'm almost positive i read in genesis biography that carpet crawlers was gabriel alone. Or are you listing even those who contributed a tiny little bit? which would explain hackett and collins named so many times along the rest of the band although hackett himself stated that around foxtrot he was very worried that the others would complain about his lack of writting contribution (although it seems that he wrote indeed most of can utility and horizons)

I'm gessing that Gabriel is named so often in the lamb because he wrote all the lyrics, it seemed to me that Rutherford/Banks contributed to the majority of the melodies (except carpet, counting, and half of the title track with banks)

thanks for clarification!

cheers
Tony

[Scott Bails]

Jeez, you'd think Tony Banks would know more about this than the rest of us. ;)

[Banks]

Oh, one last remark. It seemed to me that the knife was a Banks/Gabriel colaboration, this link seem to confirm : http://ericsmusicworld.blogspot.co.il/2013/02/peter-gabriel-from-genesis-frontman-to.html

I know it seems from an interview with Rutherford that all songs from Tresspass are a group effort (wikipedia), Mike must be either dumb or a liar because their bio says otherwise.

[Banks]

Yeah I spent too much time trying to be Collins, so I lost my memory and most of my songwritting abilities

[Progatron]

I'm not sure Hackett should be credited on "Apocalypse In 9/8", being that was a Banks/Collins/Rutherford creation (with PG's lyrics, obviously). Most everything else appears accurate as far as I can tell. And no, "Carpet Crawlers" was not solely a PG composition, although it is largely his, as was "Chamber Of 32 Doors". The only one on the Lamb that was written entirely by him was "Counting Out Time".

[Banks]

Thanks progatron! Any clues on The Knife?

[BobM]

The band members must have some kind of agreement, since Hackett has an album and is currently touring and playing songs credited to others in the group. I really thought he was only remaking songs that he had a hand in creating and had writing credit for.

[ThomasKDye]

I'm not sure Hackett should be credited on "Apocalypse In 9/8"

The reason why bill g. added Hackett is because I'm absolutely certain Hackett wrote the acoustic guitar/flute bit between "Willow Farm" and "Apocalypse," and apparently that bit is part of "Apocalypse."

[JKL2000]

This might be a good place to post a link to The Genesis Discography - a classic document from the early Internets all about Genesis. It has all kinds of stuff in it, but it's been a long time since I read it so I forget what exactly. A treasure trove, basically.

http://cyberreviews.skwc.com/genesis.html

[bill g]

The reason why bill g. added Hackett is because I'm absolutely certain Hackett wrote the acoustic guitar/flute bit between "Willow Farm" and "Apocalypse," and apparently that bit is part of "Apocalypse."

Yes, that is true. I think there is another interlude he had a hand in, credited to 'Ikhnaton...' As I said, my list isn't 100%. But a couple things-Banks and Rutherford wrote the chords to Carpet Crawlers according to the Biography I have. As to Trespass, it has been stated from the beginning that Anthony wrote 'Visions of Angels', and that he and Mike wrote Dusk and White Mountain. I also read, but I forget where, that Tony and Peter wrote 'Looking For Someone' and 'The Knife', and that Mike and Anthony added bits, and the only real group composition from that album was 'Stagnation'. As to Chamber of 32 Doors, its been said that Tony wrote the majestic intro, and Peter wrote the rest-of course that intro resurfaces tamed, with vocals over it.

[ThomasKDye]

It has been stated from the beginning that Anthony wrote 'Visions of Angels'

And that's totally believable once you're acquainted with Ant's solo stuff... sad jangly twelve string chords and really depressing lyrics filled with dying nature imagery. It's definitely not a Gabriel or Banks thing.

[firth5th]

And that's totally believable once you're acquainted with Ant's solo stuff... sad jangly twelve string chords and really depressing lyrics filled with dying nature imagery. It's definitely not a Gabriel or Banks thing.

Ant wrote it about Jill Gabriel who he had a crush on.

[bill g]

Ant wrote it about Jill Gabriel who he had a crush on.

Poor Ant. So many songs about unrequited love. I hope one day he finds his soulmate, if he hasn't already.

[Prehensile Pencil]

Yeagh, guys. BUT, probably none of this is wholly correct, at least verbatim. Credit where credit is due seems to fall short in the industry, especially when publishing rights and mechanical royalties are somewhat spread out to appease band members, across the board. The only people who would really know who wrote what are the band members, and I'd bet they've long ago forgotten the particulars.

One thing is factual here: the music composer(s) is/are usually entitled to 50%, and the lyricist(s) the other 50%. Artistically reasoned or not, Gabriel insisted on controlling the texts, entitling him to 50% of the publishing of tLLDOB (where the pieces were not instrumental). I find it unlikely that this had nothing to do with his departure from the band.

[thos]

Yeagh, guys. BUT, probably none of this is wholly correct, at least verbatim. Credit where credit is due seems to fall short in the industry, especially when publishing rights and mechanical royalties are somewhat spread out to appease band members, across the board. The only people who would really know who wrote what are the band members, and I'd bet they've long ago forgotten the particulars.

One thing is factual here: the music composer(s) is/are usually entitled to 50%, and the lyricist(s) the other 50%. Artistically reasoned or not, Gabriel insisted on controlling the texts, entitling him to 50% of the publishing of tLLDOB (where the pieces were not instrumental). I find it unlikely that this had nothing to do with his departure from the band.

I thought he wrote most or all of the lyrics to Lamb, (except the Light...), but the publishing remained credited to the whole band. That's how it's listed on the album, and I assume that's how the publishing was split up.

Where did you hear/read that he received 50% of the publishing to the Lamb? (If I'm understanding you correctly)

[Progatron]

Thanks progatron! Any clues on The Knife?

Definitely Gabriel/Banks, originally written on piano before being fleshed out and having the added 'dark' feel of the organ (not unlike "Going Out To Get You" which resurfaced in a live context with Phil & Steve in '71/early '72 and a beefed-up sound). Ant obviously came up with the "Knife" guitar solo... I've never heard anything that suggests a Rutherford contribution, but hey, who knows?


The reason why bill g. added Hackett is because I'm absolutely certain Hackett wrote the acoustic guitar/flute bit between "Willow Farm" and "Apocalypse," and apparently that bit is part of "Apocalypse."

Oh that makes sense, and I love that section. Gentle beauty leading to all-out chaos.


As to Trespass, it has been stated from the beginning that Anthony wrote 'Visions of Angels', and that he and Mike wrote Dusk and White Mountain. I also read, but I forget where, that Tony and Peter wrote 'Looking For Someone' and 'The Knife', and that Mike and Anthony added bits, and the only real group composition from that album was 'Stagnation'. As to Chamber of 32 Doors, its been said that Tony wrote the majestic intro, and Peter wrote the rest-of course that intro resurfaces tamed, with vocals over it.

Ant did write "Visions Of Angels", originally meant for inclusion on From Genesis To Revelation, but not recorded and released until Trespass. A lovely song, although a bit naive. I'm surprised to hear that Tony came up with the intro to "32 Doors" - that one just screams Steve Hackett. Very interesting indeed. Tony and Steve were very similar in many ways. Either way, it's almost entirely Gabriel's track otherwise.

I'm still surprised that Hackett did not include "Seven Stones" on either of his GR albums - back when he was answering fan questions on his facebook page (that was great, btw, he really put a lot of time in there), I asked him about the track and he replied that he remains 'quite fond' of it, and remembers writing it in a place they called "Toad Hall" (wasn't that Strat's place, also pictured on the inside gatefold of VDGG's Pawn Hearts?). He also said he felt it sounded stronger in rehearsal than on the final album.

I could talk about this stuff all day. :D

[Wilton Said...]

Yeagh, guys. BUT, probably none of this is wholly correct, at least verbatim. Credit where credit is due seems to fall short in the industry, especially when publishing rights and mechanical royalties are somewhat spread out to appease band members, across the board. The only people who would really know who wrote what are the band members, and I'd bet they've long ago forgotten the particulars.

One thing is factual here: the music composer(s) is/are usually entitled to 50%, and the lyricist(s) the other 50%. Artistically reasoned or not, Gabriel insisted on controlling the texts, entitling him to 50% of the publishing of tLLDOB (where the pieces were not instrumental). I find it unlikely that this had nothing to do with his departure from the band.

At one time when old jazz and show tunes were written by duos, this would make sense for the publishing to be split 50/50 as one would often write the music while the other wrote the lyrics. However, for music where there may be more then two writers, this is not necessarily the case. Perhaps you're thinking of Marillion. I believe it was stated in their Separated Out biography that when they were writing the follow up to Clutching at Straws, Fish apparently wanted 50% of the publishing as he wrote the lyrics while the rest of the band wrote the music. The band weren't too happy about this which also caused tension and was a reason for Fish leaving.

Wilton

[JIF]

At one time when old jazz and show tunes were written by duos, this would make sense for the publishing to be split 50/50 as one would often write the music while the other wrote the lyrics. However, for music where there may be more then two writers, this is not necessarily the case. Perhaps you're thinking of Marillion. I believe it was stated in their Separated Out biography that when they were writing the follow up to Clutching at Straws, Fish apparently wanted 50% of the publishing as he wrote the lyrics while the rest of the band wrote the music. The band weren't too happy about this which also caused tension and was a reason for Fish leaving.

WiltonI'm sure that the drugs and alcohol didn't help.

[bill g]

I'm surprised to hear that Tony came up with the intro to "32 Doors" - that one just screams Steve Hackett. Very interesting indeed. Tony and Steve were very similar in many ways. Either way, it's almost entirely Gabriel's track otherwise.

I could talk about this stuff all day. :D

Yeah. Tony's chording style though. But yeah, I remember Tony saying when Steve left he felt he'd lost an ally. Though the albums are very different, I think of Tony's instrumental intro to 'Behind The Lines' and Steve's instrumental intro to 'Camino Royale', both melodies that come up again at the end of their respective albums. Oh if they would just do an album together. Without Mike or Phil. Maybe a prog-style instrumental album. Anyway, I could talk about this stuff all day too. ;)

[Scott Bails]

I remember Tony saying when Steve left he felt he'd lost an ally.

I was always under the assumption that their relationship was rather adversarial.

[ThomasKDye]

I was always under the assumption that their relationship was rather adversarial.

Tony and Peter were also at loggerheads a lot of the time as well (most of Phil's recollections of Genesis studio time seem to involve Tony and Peter arguing) but I think they appreciated what the other brought to the material. You can conflict a lot but come up with even more creative stuff because of it.

[firth5th]

I was always under the assumption that their relationship was rather adversarial.

I think there was tension at the time, but reflecting back more recently, Tony has nothing but good things to say about Steve and his contributions to Genesis.

[dpt3]

[QUOTE=bill g;163679 Oh if they would just do an album together.[/QUOTE]

But would it be called "Bankett" or "Backett"?

[dnieper]

How about just "Hacks"

[Banks]

This thread is very interesting. I know it's not necessarily the right place, but I would like take this discussion a little further : what about the late era when they allways credited their songs to collins/banks/rutherford. Songs' credits from that period are harder to trace because the band members seem to avoid the question with the very dodgy "we write together through jams" argument without further details (even though they still admited in an interview that the collins-like "hold on my heart" is by banks).

However I cannot help but feel that some songs seem to come mainly from one of the band members (regardless of the lyrics which have clear credit). The very good "Fading lights" is pure Banks all around as seems "the brazilian", whereas "no son of mine" and "land of confusion" sound a little more Rutherford, while "tell me why" and "since i lost you" sound collins, while some could definitely be a group effort like "jesus he knows me", of course as "hold on my heart" shows, this could be misleading, Banks showing a big inclination towards pop (it seems very likely that he was the main writer of the stinker "invisible touch")

Any thougths?

[dpt3]

Wasn't "Invisible Touch" primarily Rutherford's? At least, I seem to remember that it originated in the guitar riff that he came up with.

[Rufus]

Wasn't "Invisible Touch" primarily Rutherford's? At least, I seem to remember that it originated in the guitar riff that he came up with.

Don't think he'd own up to it even if he did !

On a serious note didn't Hackett leave the band because his ideas where mostly met with rejection . The only album i hear much of a Hackett influence is W&W.

[Banks]

Hackett had too much material to stay in genesis, it was frustrating for him.

[Progatron]

However I cannot help but feel that some songs seem to come mainly from one of the band members (regardless of the lyrics which have clear credit). The very good "Fading lights" is pure Banks all around as seems "the brazilian", whereas "no son of mine" and "land of confusion" sound a little more Rutherford, while "tell me why" and "since i lost you" sound collins, while some could definitely be a group effort like "jesus he knows me", of course as "hold on my heart" shows, this could be misleading, Banks showing a big inclination towards pop (it seems very likely that he was the main writer of the stinker "invisible touch")

Certainly there are occasions where a song or two stem almost entirely from one member musically, but starting with the 'Shapes' album they walked into the studio each time with a clean slate - so with all three members in the room at the time the songs were written (or the ideas were at least hashed out), it does make sense to credit all three. Regarding the specific songs you mention: "Fading Lights" was a lengthy jam in the studio that was eventually pruned to a more manageable length for the album - definitely a band composition. Likewise with "The Brazilian" although I agree that it sounds Banks-heavy. "No Son Of Mine" was actually another one initiated by Banks, who used a sample of Rutherford's guitar tuning because he liked that it sounded like an elephant, and Collins vocalizing until a melody had taken shape. "Land Of Confusion" was a Rutherford bit for sure, and was also his lyric. I'm not sure how much input Banks and Collins had on that one... it's not hard to picture it as a Mechanics piece actually. "Tell Me Why" was something Mike came up with on the Rickenbacker (I remember them 'leaking' that information while the album was coming together and being tremendously disappointed with the end result - it's okay I guess). I've never heard much about the writing of "Since I Lost You" - it was added to the album sessions very late in the game because Phil wanted to pay his respects to Eric Clapton who had recently suffered the loss of his young son Connor (who had fallen from a window). Certainly the lyric is Phil's, but I have no idea who came up with the music. It doesn't sound like something jammed. "Invisible Touch" was another riff of Mike's that the group expanded (not that it was expanded into much, mind you) again with Phil improvising vocals that eventually became lyrics. As for Banks' inclination towards pop, you're quite right. He does in fact like a lot of pop music, more than people may think. Look no further than a lot of his solo career - it wasn't only Phil & Mike who 'popped' it up.

[zorknapp]

If you've ever been in a band that generated material through jamming, it's very easy to see how difficult it is for the members of Genesis to talk about how different bits came together. Yes, all the material from Shapes onward came through jamming, and then refining those jams. And refining, and refining...

The reason why it's all group credited is because without them in the room, the jams wouldn't have happened the same way. Tony reacts to Mike, who reacts to Tony, who reacts to the melody that Phil is singing, and Phil reacts to Tony. Then, through the long process of refining those jams, music and songs take shape.

Phil was the one who used to catalog the tapes from the day each night, and say, "Let's go back to bit #12," or whatever.

It's a cool way of generating material, because as they all said, they couldn't do it that way in their solo careers, where their music was created on their own.

Mike

[bill g]

Interesting insights. I do remember in an interview Banks had little to do with 'Invisible Touch', except to 'add some chords to the effort', as he put it. The one thing that used to be on wiki and no longer is so it may be wrong-that Banks wrote 'Do The Neurotic' and 'Feeding The Fire', or they were mostly his, which was one reason they didn't end up on Invisible Touch. Since Banks wrote the instrumental intro to Behind The Lines, I can certainly see his hand in Do The Neurotic, but could see Phil doing some of the cool percussion stuff at the intro. I've never heard that Tony wrote Hold on my Heart, I did read that Phil in fact wrote the lyrics to that one, but can't confirm that in anything I have in writing. Since the chords are actually quite moody, I could see Tony more strongly involved there. I do know Tony wrote the lyrics to 'Fading Lights' and 'Living Forever'. (Not to mention Domino, Anything She Does, Silver Rainbow and Home By The Sea) and that Phil came up with the chorus of 'In Too Deep'-The very chorus that to me takes the song down about 3 notches.

[bill g]

One more thing, about Banks' 'inclination toward pop'. When Banks does pop, I tend to quite like it. When Phil and Mike do pop, I don't so much. Banks' solo albums have gotten way more spins from both my wife and I than post Abacab Genesis albums.

[Progatron]

Speaking of "Behind The Lines" (I guess this could go in the Duke thread), I'd love to read the original lyrics Phil presented to Mike & Tony, who deemed them 'much too dark' to use.

[Kai]

I've never heard that Tony wrote Hold on my Heart, I did read that Phil in fact wrote the lyrics to that one, but can't confirm that in anything I have in writing. Since the chords are actually quite moody, I could see Tony more strongly involved there.

Banks stated in 1991: "I managed to creep in a few more chords than I'm normally allowed to on this song, so it has a sort of Burt Bacharach feel." Which of course doesn't suggest he wrote all of it, but I'm sure he had a big role in composing that one.


I've never heard much about the writing of "Since I Lost You" - it was added to the album sessions very late in the game because Phil wanted to pay his respects to Eric Clapton who had recently suffered the loss of his young son Connor (who had fallen from a window). Certainly the lyric is Phil's, but I have no idea who came up with the music.

Banks also stated at the time that he had originated the song by playing chords in 6/8 rhythm to evoke a Phil Spector-like atmosphere, "originally as a joke, and I didn't like it much, until Mike said it sounded great." Apparently, they later developed it from there.

[Banks]

hey bill g, I'm with you about banks pop. Even though on Genesis side, the shapes album is definitely their best pop album (in which, with all fairness, still contained some inclination towards prog, but then all their albums have). It's also their darkest album from the trio period. For all those reasons, it's still quite listenable to me. Never fancied Mike + mechanics although i found their rewired album to be quite good (except one or two "lion king"-like tunes). Banks' Still and Bankstatement are still better than anything from Phil and Mike (except Rewired). On Genesis side We can't dance could have been so much better. I'm forced to skip : "tell me why", "never a time", "way of the world", "since i lost you", "hold on my heart". Throw out those five and add "on the shoreline" and MAYBE even "heart's on fire" and you have improved the album by at least factor 10.

This applies to the whole trio era in fact :
-on duke, cut out "alone tonight" and "please don't ask" and add "evidence of autumn"
-on wind and wuthering (even though hackett was still there), leave out the rolling stone-praised "own special way" and add "inside and out"
-on abacab, add naminanu and submarine to complete the naminanu/dodo/lurker/submarine suite, add you might recall and me and virgil and paperlate (here there's potential for an epic)
-on invisible touch, skip the title track, int too deep and add "do the neurotic"

Those guys still had talent but their career seems to be paddled by bad choices in artistic direction.

[Banks]

on a positive note, even though i pretty much hate their invisible touch period, they still delivered a first rate show at wembley (a paradox many bands know)

[Banks]

Regarding "Hold on my heart" on my live we can't dance dvd, theres an interview where Banks is clearly asked if he gets annoyed that people often credit HomH to Phil. Phil states more or less "those chords are to complex to be from me".

[Progatron]

-on abacab, add naminanu and submarine to complete the naminanu/dodo/lurker/submarine suite, add you might recall and me and virgil and paperlate (here there's potential for an epic)

I agree with a lot of your post, except adding in "Me And Virgil", my all-time least favourite Genesis track (there aren't many, but I just can't tolerate that one). Other than that, the 2-LP version of Abacab would have been quite interesting.

[bill g]

I agree with a lot of your post, except adding in "Me And Virgil", my all-time least favourite Genesis track (there aren't many, but I just can't tolerate that one). Other than that, the 2-LP version of Abacab would have been quite interesting.

Really? I really like that one and find it more 'proggy' than almost anything from Abacab (me & sarah Jane excepted, of course) Also Phil's voice seems really strong in that one. The middle section in particular, helps give the whole thing a feel of being a mini-epic. The one I don't care for is the overtly straightforward 'Paperlate'. That is one I'd leave off.

Mr. Banks, I do agree with much of your assessments of songs that should have been kept and left off. Although I have a soft spot for 'Tell Me Why', since I get a strong feel from the chord changes. At least that one and 'Hold On My Heart' have some chords. But yes, I don't need some of those songs-'I Cant Dance' is my least favorite Genesis song ever, and 'Never A Time' is a very close 2nd least.

[mozo-pg]

Don't think he'd own up to it even if he did !

On a serious note didn't Hackett leave the band because his ideas where mostly met with rejection . The only album i hear much of a Hackett influence is W&W.

This is why I don't get the 100 percent drooling over Hackett's Genesis Revisted shows. I saw the show in Gatineau, Quebec and I was amazed by how little Hackett was playing on the classic Genesis tunes, except Blood On The Rooftops, Firth of Fifth, and some of the remaining tunes from Trick and Wind. I was actually starting to get bored despite knowing everyone else was, like I said, drooling. I thought the guy in the seat in front of me was having a spastic fit and was going to explode. I definitely preferred Steve's solo tours where he really attacked his guitar.

[Progatron]

Really? I really like that one and find it more 'proggy' than almost anything from Abacab (me & sarah Jane excepted, of course) Also Phil's voice seems really strong in that one. The middle section in particular, helps give the whole thing a feel of being a mini-epic. The one I don't care for is the overtly straightforward 'Paperlate'. That is one I'd leave off.

Yeah. It's in the bottom five with "Illegal Alien", "Since I Lost You", "If That's What You Need", and "Invisible Touch". I've never liked the lyrics, and I especially cringe at that Banks line after "Pa you broke her heart". Even as I typed that, I cringed. :D I know Phil has a strong dislike for the track too, and was apparently adamant that it be left off the Archive 2 boxed set. I'm not sure what the other two think of it, but Banks probably likes it. Don't ask me why I say that - just a hunch. I like "Paperlate" well enough, and I think the story of its origins is so cool! And of course I LOVE "Me And Sarah Jane", one of my favourites from that album.


I have a soft spot for 'Tell Me Why', since I get a strong feel from the chord changes. At least that one and 'Hold On My Heart' have some chords. But yes, I don't need some of those songs-'I Cant Dance' is my least favorite Genesis song ever, and 'Never A Time' is a very close 2nd least.

"Tell Me Why" and "Hold On My Heart" are okay, nothing special though. Occasional skipper tracks, but not bad songs by any means. "Never A Time" is pretty weak and probably floats not far above those "bottom five" I mentioned earlier, but I can stomach it slightly more than "Virgil" for example. I like "I Can't Dance", if I can get the image of the video out of my head. :)

[Banks]

Oh my G..., I forgot to mention droping "throwing it all away" in the Invisible touch improvement list, it may be worse than the title track

[Banks]

I like Me an Virgil, it's like a brother version of Me and Sarah Jane.

[bill g]

Oh my G..., I forgot to mention droping "throwing it all away" in the Invisible touch improvement list, it may be worse than the title track

The saving grace for 'Throwing It All Away' for me is the chorus. Coming in with that big Major 7 chord gives it some feeling at least, more than the title track anyway. I suppose putting simpler hits on that album is providing income so that Tony can do his classical albums now, doing what he loves.

I wonder which (me & virgil or me & sarah jane) came first, since Phil wrote the words to Me & Virgil, but yeah those to me are, along with Naminanu, probably the most interesting and proggy stuff from the Abacab era, although I really like the chorus to 'Keep It Dark' as well.

[Banks]

I always liked "keep it dark", globaly abacab has a better mood than duke. Not very fond of no reply at all though. What's with the horns??
Anyway, progatron inspired me to list my top bottom genesis songs :
"own special way"
"since I lost you"
"alone tonight"
"please don't ask"
"throwing it all away"
"invisible touch"
"in too deep"
"never a time"
"tell me why"

some of those are not necessarily the worst thing that I ever heard, it's just that they sound too much Collins and could have belonged in a Collins album, which should be a line not to cross in genesis (a good example of this concept is the shapes album : there's too much rutherford/banks influence in the arrangements and writing there to be compared to a collins album, it's too dark and "proggy" to be mistaken for a collins album, so it exists as a genesis entity. This notion becomes a little ambiguous in we can't dance and very ambiguous in IT)

[Progatron]

Oh my G..., I forgot to mention droping "throwing it all away" in the Invisible touch improvement list, it may be worse than the title track

I really like that song actually. Heavily Rutherford influenced... I've always especially liked the "Someday you'll be sorry, someday when you're free..." verse. I know it's no "Supper's Ready", it's just a nice song.


I like Me an Virgil, it's like a brother version of Me and Sarah Jane.

Oh god no. :D

[bill g]

I always liked "keep it dark", globaly abacab has a better mood than duke. Not very fond of no reply at all though. What's with the horns??
Anyway, progatron inspired me to list my top bottom genesis songs :
"own special way"
"since I lost you"
"alone tonight"
"please don't ask"
"throwing it all away"
"invisible touch"
"in too deep"
"never a time"
"tell me why"

some of those are not necessarily the worst thing that I ever heard, it's just that they sound too much Collins and could have belonged in a Collins album, which should be a line not to cross in genesis (a good example of this concept is the shapes album : there's too much rutherford/banks influence in the arrangements and writing there to be compared to a collins album, it's too dark and "proggy" to be mistaken for a collins album, so it exists as a genesis entity. This notion becomes a little ambiguous in we can't dance and very ambiguous in IT)

sounds like you don't care for the mellower tracks in general. My 10 least would be more like this:

I cant dance (least)
never a time
nowhere else to turn
sign your life away
who dunnit
not about us
paperlate
man on the corner
misunderstanding
in too deep or jesus, he knows me, or illegal alien.

[Progatron]

sounds like you don't care for the mellower tracks in general. My 10 least would be more like this:

I cant dance (least)
never a time
nowhere else to turn
sign your life away
who dunnit
not about us
paperlate
man on the corner
misunderstanding
in too deep or jesus, he knows me, or illegal alien.

Ahhh, I love "Sign Your Life Away", "Man On The Corner" and "Jesus He Knows Me"! :D Interesting to see these lists though.

[JIF]

I always liked "keep it dark", globaly abacab has a better mood than duke. Not very fond of no reply at all though. What's with the horns??
Anyway, progatron inspired me to list my top bottom genesis songs :
"own special way"
"since I lost you"
"alone tonight"
"please don't ask"
"throwing it all away"
"invisible touch"
"in too deep"
"never a time"
"tell me why"

some of those are not necessarily the worst thing that I ever heard, it's just that they sound too much Collins and could have belonged in a Collins album, which should be a line not to cross in genesis (a good example of this concept is the shapes album : there's too much rutherford/banks influence in the arrangements and writing there to be compared to a collins album, it's too dark and "proggy" to be mistaken for a collins album, so it exists as a genesis entity. This notion becomes a little ambiguous in we can't dance and very ambiguous in IT)I hear some folk influence in Your Own Special Way? That track was written by Mike.

[Bigpicturekeys]

Although I like alot of catalog from each member, I think that each one's first solo effort better reflect what each member brought to the table at the time. Voyage of the Acolyte never tires for me and it is married in kind to Gabriel 1 (or Car if you prefer), SmallCreeps Day and It's a Curious Feeling. All of these are desert island discs for me. I even find revisits to Face Value worthwhile. Now back to the thread......

[Digital_Man]

Not to derail the thread but just to comment real quick about solo albums. For Mike Rutherford I've only heard "acting very strange" and all I can say is that Mike's vocals are pretty dreadful. He sounds like a cross between Cat Stevens and Prince but far worse than either of those singers. Tony Banks' "the Fugitive" isn't much better. I plan on hearing both of their first albums which apparently are much better than those.

[Banks]

sounds like you don't care for the mellower tracks in general. My 10 least would be more like this:

I cant dance (least)
never a time
nowhere else to turn
sign your life away
who dunnit
not about us
paperlate
man on the corner
misunderstanding
in too deep or jesus, he knows me, or illegal alien.

Actualy I'm very fond of misunderstanding and jesus he knows me :-)
funny to compare.

I didn't mention Calling all stations, but there's a couple of good cuts there (one man's fool, congo which are both very bankish)

[Progatron]

Talking about Genesis members in a Genesis thread isn't 'de-railing' it IMO. ;)

Oddly enough, I've never warmed to either Smallcreep's Day or A Curious Feeling. I really like "The Waters Of Lethe", and I like "Compression" a lot too (b-side from Smallcreep), but I'm just not fond of a lot of the other songs and especially the vocals. I agree that Acting Very Strange is weak but I prefer it to SC, which I know is not popular opinion. Likewise with The Fugitive (and other later Banks efforts). Whereas I love the debut solo albums from Hackett, Phillips, Gabriel and Collins. I'm baffled by it myself - I *should* like Smallcreep and Curious, I just don't somehow. Oh well...

[bill g]

Talking about Genesis members in a Genesis thread isn't 'de-railing' it IMO. ;)

Oddly enough, I've never warmed to either Smallcreep's Day or A Curious Feeling. I really like "The Waters Of Lethe", and I like "Compression" a lot too (b-side from Smallcreep), but I'm just not fond of a lot of the other songs and especially the vocals. I agree that Acting Very Strange is weak but I prefer it to SC, which I know is not popular opinion. Likewise with The Fugitive (and other later Banks efforts). Whereas I love the debut solo albums from Hackett, Phillips, Gabriel and Collins. I'm baffled by it myself - I *should* like Smallcreep and Curious, I just don't somehow. Oh well...

Who can really know why we like what we like? Especially after reading this thread. Would never have expected some of the opinions here, but it shows that there is probably a good deal of feeling in all Genesis songs-whether we catch the feeling or not. 'Sign Your Life Away' to me just sounds like a typical boring 80s song. But I hear loads of feeling in 'Run Out of Time', which could be my favorite song of the whole CAS sessions. But even in my LEAST favorite Genesis songs, its only 'I Cant Dance' that I would likely turn off if it came on the radio. All of the others have at least something that makes it a lot better than the average pop song, which says quite a bit about Genesis as songwriters. (I see I forgot to include 'Invisible Touch' though, that is probably my 3rd least fave.)

[mozo-pg]

Talking about Genesis members in a Genesis thread isn't 'de-railing' it IMO. ;)

Oddly enough, I've never warmed to either Smallcreep's Day or A Curious Feeling. I really like "The Waters Of Lethe", and I like "Compression" a lot too (b-side from Smallcreep), but I'm just not fond of a lot of the other songs and especially the vocals. I agree that Acting Very Strange is weak but I prefer it to SC, which I know is not popular opinion. Likewise with The Fugitive (and other later Banks efforts). Whereas I love the debut solo albums from Hackett, Phillips, Gabriel and Collins. I'm baffled by it myself - I *should* like Smallcreep and Curious, I just don't somehow. Oh well...

How much energy do I have after a usual grueling work week: DITTO!!

[dpt3]

I definitely wouldn't rank Acting Very Strange above Smallcreep's Day, but it's actually an album that has grown on me recently. I wouldn't mind hearing some of the material with a better singer.

[Tangram]

Not to derail the thread but just to comment real quick about solo albums. For Mike Rutherford I've only heard "acting very strange" and all I can say is that Mike's vocals are pretty dreadful. He sounds like a cross between Cat Stevens and Prince but far worse than either of those singers. Tony Banks' "the Fugitive" isn't much better. I plan on hearing both of their first albums which apparently are much better than those.

Both MR and TB's first releases are light years better than their sophomore releases. I like The Fugitive but there really isn't anything redeemable except Hideaway from Acting Very Strange. I like it more now than when it came out but that's not a ringing endorsement. I'm sure many will disagree with me but A Curious Feeling is the strongest and my favorite Genesis related solo album. YMMV but you are in for a real treat with ACF and Smallcreeps Day.

[ThomasKDye]

There really isn't anything redeemable except Hideaway from Acting Very Strange.

"Couldn't Get Arrested" is a mindlessly fun song for me; otherwise, yeah. Mike's terrible vocals, Mike's pop songwriting at its most negligible (how long did it take him to compose "Maxine," honestly?) a horridly bright and shrill tone on his guitar and the worst attempt at new wave sparseness ever. Tony had a "cute" Lennon-ish voice (the songs he sang on after "The Fugitive" were the ones with childlike viewpoints)... Mike doesn't have a voice at all. He even admitted it in one of the first Mechanics-related interviews.

That said, when my taste was a little more dubious, I liked it better, and I could probably listen to one or two songs for nostalgia's sake. Then my headache demands that I stop.

[nosebone]

Phil wrote everything!

[Tangram]

There aren't many Genesis that I don't like but the absolute bottom of the barrel is Anything She Does. And I've heard Illegal Alien, Whodunnit, and the lightweight tracks from We Can't Dance.

[Tangram]

"Couldn't Get Arrested" is a mindlessly fun song for me;

Well if he did, the world might have been spared :)

[Rufus]

Phil wrote everything!

Phil ruined everything !

[bill g]

I'm sure many will disagree with me but A Curious Feeling is the strongest and my favorite Genesis related solo album.[/I]

Me too I think. But Six Pieces For Orchestra, Geese & The Ghost, Voyage of the Acolyte, Spectral Mornings and perhaps Smallcreeps Day are very close. Some days they may even sound better, but overall I think I agree with you.

[Tangram]

Me too I think. But Six Pieces For Orchestra, Geese & The Ghost, Voyage of the Acolyte, Spectral Mornings and perhaps Smallcreeps Day are very close. Some days they may even sound better, but overall I think I agree with you.

I probably listen to more orchestral work than prog these days so I'll have to pick up Six Pieces.

[Banks]

Me too I think. But Six Pieces For Orchestra, Geese & The Ghost, Voyage of the Acolyte, Spectral Mornings and perhaps Smallcreeps Day are very close. Some days they may even sound better, but overall I think I agree with you.

Although I don't question the quality of the above mentioned works, I'll have to say that, even though, INSIDE genesis, Tony Banks is my favourite composer, OUTSIDE genesis, the two best solo cariers artisticly speaking are Peter Gabriel and Steve Hackett. For instance, the album PG 3 is of an artistic relevance and rough beauty that have not, in my taste, been equaled by any of the other members' solo output. Steve Hackett, even though not as comercialy succesfull as Peter, is more prolific and consistent throughout his career. As i'm speaking, at least 10 works of breathtaking beauty by Steve, from 76 to 2010 come in mind (for instance spectral mornings, darktown, to watch the storms, wild orchids, even his works within the classical genre are far more convincing than Banks').

[bill g]

Although I don't question the quality of the above mentioned works, I'll have to say that, even though, INSIDE genesis, Tony Banks is my favourite composer, OUTSIDE genesis, the two best solo cariers artisticly speaking are Peter Gabriel and Steve Hackett. For instance, the album PG 3 is of an artistic relevance and rough beauty that have not, in my taste, been equaled by any of the other members' solo output. Steve Hackett, even though not as comercialy succesfull as Peter, is more prolific and consistent throughout his career. As i'm speaking, at least 10 works of breathtaking beauty by Steve, from 76 to 2010 come in mind (for instance spectral mornings, darktown, to watch the storms, wild orchids, even his works within the classical genre are far more convincing than Banks').

I find Six, compositionally a good deal better than Hackett's all-classical albums. But for progressive rock, Hackett is overall superior in my opinion. I rather like Peter Gabriels solo work too, especially 'Up', but wouldn't put in the same league as Hackett or Banks. No one does chord progressions like Tony and those move me much more than Gabe's work, good as it is.

[JIF]

Phil ruined everything !Damn you, Nosebone, for getting him started. He's like the Energizer Bunny. Once you stop the Phil-bashing, he won't stop.

[SunshipVoyager]

Poor Ant. So many songs about unrequited love. I hope one day he finds his soulmate, if he hasn't already.

Shit, man. He is 61 years old, so I hope so as well.

[Per Kohler]

Ant is definitely a part of the creation of 'Fountain of Salmacis". I thought that Rutherford was contributing to 'Can-Utility' but obviously I'm wrong. Logically as Hackett has stated that his contribution to Foxtrot was limited to 'Horizons' and maybe a little more. He even offered to be replaced by another guitarist as he didn't bring enough material. I can't figure out why when I see the composer list here.

[calyx]

I thought that Rutherford was contributing to 'Can-Utility' but obviously I'm wrong. Logically as Hackett has stated that his contribution to Foxtrot was limited to 'Horizons' and maybe a little more.

Indeed - I was quite surprised by Hackett's rather recent claim to have written the bulk of "Can-Utility". I had believed it to be a collective composition, and believed the words to be Banks'.

[mx20]

I'd swear that I'd heard from more than one source over the years that "Can Utility" was a germ of Mike's that the band arranged, and the lyrics were his, too. Maybe I'm getting mixed up with something else....?

BTW, my "top bottom" Genesis tunes are basically:
All of CAS
Anything She Does
Most of WCD
FGtR

I love ALMOST everything they did!

[Per Kohler]

More uncertainties...I would rather place Hackett before Banks on 'Moonlit Knight'. Even if you don't have the slightest clue about the descending order of this masterpiece just listen to the allocation of the instrumental passages. Hackett plays by far more than what Banks does. He doesn't always, but here it's an illuminating fact. Why would Banks 'give away' such an amount if he wrote it himself. If you know the band well, you can also trace pieces that are recognizable from other compositions.