The ConstrucKtion Of Light & Power To Believe = Dead Ringers?

[arabicadabra]

In revisiting the two post-Bruford KC albums, BOTH of which I like quite a bit, I am appreciative of the Power To Believe with it's somewhat warmer humanity (to my ears, anyway) - but absolutely floored by the power and stark futuristic chill of the ConstrucKtion. I was trying to find an analogy to explain the pair when I remembered the David Cronenberg film Dead Ringers with Jeremy Irons playing both roles. In my mind, TCOL is the more confident brother (surgical tubing) whereas TPTB is the one who is getting set up on dates.

[progman1975]

Killer Albums....

[Dave (in MA)]

The produKction of ConstruKction suKcs.

[Udi Koomran]

The produKction of ConstruKction suKcs.


Word

[spknoevl]

Yeah, the big reverby electronic drums totally ruin the listening experience of Construkction for me. Otherwise, I think it has some of KCs most powerful pieces on it including the title song.

[arabicadabra]

Yeah, the big reverby electronic drums totally ruin the listening experience of Construkction for me. Otherwise, I think it has some of KCs most powerful pieces on it including the title song.
Sounds like a job for Steven Wilson.....

[Dave (in MA)]

big reverby electronic drums
The e drums sound like shitty 56kbps mp3 files.

[Rael]

I don't know if it was the production of Construktion or something else, but I found it such a cold and harsh album I've never been able to make it all the way through the album. It turned me off so much I never bothered with The Power To Believe.

[NogbadTheBad]

You should try The Power To Believe. It's a much better album.

[polmico]

You should try The Power To Believe. It's a much better album.

One of my favs.

[Frumious B]

I think TCOL is sorta like a self-conscious pastiche of various Crim moves where TPTB actually carries the ball forward into new territory and fulfills some of the promise of the ProjeKCts.

[Haruspex Carnage]

I think TCOL is sorta like a self-conscious pastiche of various Crim moves where TPTB actually carries the ball forward into new territory and fulfills some of the promise of the ProjeKCts.

Thought the opposite with TCOL carrying echoes of the ProjeKcts in it...particularly the Heavy/Light Constructions in terms of the intervalic passing notes became better utilized in the title track and the ProjeKctions which became Into The Frying Pan really...overall i hardly saw the use or need for the ProjeKcts other than entities within themselves (awesome as they are) which IMO, outside of the two examples i mentioned, didn't become any more recognizable in terms of the studio cuts...TPTB gave us a pretty forgettable version of Thrush (w/o the Gunn solo? i believe making it NOT REALLY Thrush but yeah) and mostly offered its own vision.

[notallwhowander]

I don't think TCoL was all that confident. I think that TPtB was confident to the point of mastery. On TCoL the band was figuring out what they wanted to say. On TPtB they laid down the last word on what they wanted to say.

All this being said, my favorite disc from this era is Level 5. Just compare to "The ConstruKction of Light" on Level 5 to that on TCoL and tell me that they didn't launch that shit into orbit.

[Haruspex Carnage]

Mastelotto even told me that when they cut the whole CoL album they viewed all of it as demos...something about being in a rush, i forget.

[Trane]

You should try The Power To Believe. It's a much better album.

Yes, certainly is... but CoL is maybe their weakest studio album with Perfect Pair (and yes, the production on that album is a bit... unpleasant)

[ZOOL]

The Power to Believe is a much better album.

[Polska]

All this being said, my favorite disc from this era is Level 5. Just compare to "The ConstruKction of Light" on Level 5 to that on TCoL and tell me that they didn't launch that shit into orbit.

Agreed!! I bought Level 5 at their tour for Power to Believe and that is still my absolute favorite version of Construction of Light. The bass itself is killer! Also a cool version of it on the Eyes Wide Open DVD.

[mogrooves]

TPtB is something of a summa, in which the musical history of KC is recapitulated; I hear ItCKC--even some of its spirit--informing this album. A good place to knock it on the head. TCoL, on the other hand, sounded to me like a band out of ideas and determined to prove it....

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

I love both albums, but where they really knock it out of the park is Heavy ConstruKction, the live document of the tCoL European tour. Songs that sound cold and distant on the studio album leap out of the speakers and grab you by the throat.

[bRETT]

I persoanlly love TCoL's title track and it may be my single favorite piece from Belew-era Crimson. The song itself is just beautiful, and I love the way it sneaks in after the three-minute intro. (What I don't love is the way the long songs on that album are broken into two different tracks, making it impossible to play on shuffle).

[Planechant]

I love both albums, also, but haven't gotten Heavy Construckckckckcction. You may have just convinced me.

[Polska]

I love both albums, also, but haven't gotten Heavy Construckckckckcction. You may have just convinced me.

The numerous instrumental improvs on Heavy Construction alone are worth purchasing the discs for.

[Dave (in MA)]

What's the deal with parts of Level Five being in mono?

[3LockBox]

Nope, Thrak is the football jock who was a star at a mid-major college years ago, The Power To Believe is the nephew who starred at a major university and is a starter in the NFL and Construction of Light is TPtB's pugnacious limelight hungry dad who would have been as big a star as his older brother if it weren't for some jerk coaches.

Or not.

[JAMOOL]

I love both albums, but where they really knock it out of the park is Heavy ConstruKction, the live document of the tCoL European tour. Songs that sound cold and distant on the studio album leap out of the speakers and grab you by the throat.

Absolutely - that live album is amazing. If you like the TCoL material but hate the production, grab this live set. Belew even drops the dumb voice box for "ProzaKc Blues" (turns out he doesn't need it), and the improvs are some of the best they've ever done, period. To be honest I think TCoL is pretty awful all things considered. Power to Believe was a pretty good sendoff, I think. 90's Crim was weird - THRAK had awesome songs, TPtB had great instrumentals, TCoL had neither

[polmico]

Agreed!! I bought Level 5 at their tour for Power to Believe and that is still my absolute favorite version of Construction of Light. The bass itself is killer! Also a cool version of it on the Eyes Wide Open DVD.

But the best version is on KCCC #44, New Haven, Ct. Holy crap, they were smoking that night!

[notallwhowander]

I think part of the whole point of TCoL was to assemble ideas that had their genesis during the Double Trio and were developed during the ProjeKcts. So in a way the whole thing was about figuring out the compositions. While they did that, the new line-up hadn't really found its collective voice. They figured out what to say, but not quite how to say it. They got the later bit sorted out after they released TCoL, which I think they wanted as a 2000 release. Once they got a handle on alternating between loud, aggressive, highly composed pieces, and luminous, expansive, spacey pieces, the band really staked out an identity. You hear it coming together on Heavy ConstruKction, all together on Level 5, and as a confident voice on Happy... and TPtB.

IMO Level 5 and Happy... go a long way in redeeming a lot of the material on TCoL. For instance, the Larks' IV on Happy... is incendiary. There are great tunes and instrumentals on TCoL, they just don't shine brightest there.

[NogbadTheBad]

But the best version is on KCCC #44, New Haven, Ct. Holy crap, they were smoking that night!

I was at that gig, fantastic night

[mozo-pg]

The Power to Believe is in a different universe to my ears. I saw both tours (CoL and PtB) and the later was vastly superior. Still, Coda: I Have a Dream - is at the absolute top of my list for Crimson songs with penetrating resonance.

[polmico]

I was at that gig, fantastic night

So was it a private party??? :D

[Trane]

Well since their reunion in the 90's, Thrak is still my prefrerred studio album, despite the LTIA presence plastered all over it... (double drummer formation helping out in that parallel)

[Kim Olesen]

I don't get the love for Heavy Construkction. The sound is typically "dead soundboard" with even more dead electronic drums. And no real low end. Why on earth didn't they mix that album from the multitracks. Listen to the london gig from the eyes wide open dvd. Much better sounding.

The following tours had Pat playing a kit with real drums augmented by all his electronics and it helped 1000%

[spknoevl]

Well since their reunion in the 90's, Thrak is still my prefrerred studio album, despite the LTIA presence plastered all over it... (double drummer formation helping out in that parallel)

It seems that of each of the band trilogy groupings from the 80s onward, the first recording was always the strongest. The exception being the Wetton-era band which actually seemed to grow stronger with each recording.

[Trane]

It seems that of each of the band trilogy groupings from the 80s onward, the first recording was always the strongest. The exception being the Wetton-era band which actually seemed to grow stronger with each recording.

If it is true for Discipline (since Beat only beats the same path, while TOAPP more or less follows suit), I would kind of agree with your pattern.... if Thrak is considered as part of their latest trilogy... But can it be so because the double trio was not present on TCOL and TPTB


However, I really diasgree with you about the Wetton era... SABB is certainly no superior to LTIA (there are some fairly weak tracks on it), and I find Red rather over-rated... Indeed çonly Fallen Angel and Starless are stand-outs, and Providence is still a waste of time for me >>> though i must say that Moonchild's alt takes on the 40th anniv reissue have helped me appreciate it better...

In my book, LTIA's only weaker moment is Book of Staturday... and it's less than three minutes. The rest is infaillible

[notallwhowander]

The following tours had Pat playing a kit with real drums augmented by all his electronics and it helped 1000% I agree. Pat's change helped open up the sound of the band. While that dense assault of sound is good in small doses, more than ten or so minutes begins to fatigue my ears.

[JSS]

...
IMO Level 5 and Happy... go a long way in redeeming a lot of the material on TCoL. For instance, the Larks' IV on Happy... is incendiary. There are great tunes and instrumentals on TCoL, they just don't shine brightest there.

I agree, that is how it worked for me.
The production on TCOL never bothered me, but the vocoder stuff & reworking of "... Thrush" on TPTB did.

[arabicadabra]

> The rest is infaillible <

IMHO, the weakest stuff on SABB is infinitely more interesting than all but the first and last tracks (pts I and II) of LTIA. But I DO like all of LTIA - just get more excited by the insanity on SABB...

[mozo-pg]

Does anyone else think Coda - I had a Dream is the best song on CoL?

[notallwhowander]

It's poignant. But it kinda bums me out too much to be my favorite.

[Trane]

> The rest is infaillible <

IMHO, the weakest stuff on SABB is infinitely more interesting than all but the first and last tracks (pts I and II) of LTIA. But I DO like all of LTIA - just get more excited by the insanity on SABB...

Colours and tastes, uh?? ;)

Don't get me wrong though, I still like SABB

[Spiral]

On TCoL the band was figuring out what they wanted to say. On TPtB they laid down the last word on what they wanted to say.
Yes. I'd never call them dead ringers, more like an outline sketch and the finished painting.


(What I don't love is the way the long songs on that album are broken into two different tracks, making it impossible to play on shuffle).
That's what Audacity is for, my friend. I hate that too, but it wasn't too much trouble to combine the tracks into one file each for Ipodding (it was even easier with e).


Does anyone else think Coda - I had a Dream is the best song on CoL?
Not me. I hated the words from day one--Crimson should never be dated to certain times/places and the list is just inane. The whole thing really found its potential once they started letting the music speak for itself.

[mozo-pg]

Not me. I hated the words from day one--Crimson should never be dated to certain times/places and the list is just inane. The whole thing really found its potential once they started letting the music speak for itself.

I seldom, if ever, pay attention to lyrics in music. I love the feel of the song, the instruments/music.

[Spiral]

I seldom, if ever, pay attention to lyrics in music. I love the feel of the song, the instruments/music.
I usually do too. I can generally appreciate lyrics if they're well-done and ignore them (or just listen to them as rhythmic sounds) if they're plain or average, but sometimes there's something that bugs me enough that it makes the whole piece more unpleasant to listen to. This is just one of those times.

I've also drifted more towards things that express things without words (music, visual art, whatever) the older I get, so no doubt that preference colors the LT4 issue even more to begin with.

[Dave (in MA)]

Does anyone else think Coda - I had a Dream is the best song on CoL?Well, at least it doesn't mention E.T.'s johnson.

[StevegSr]

In revisiting the two post-Bruford KC albums, BOTH of which I like quite a bit, I am appreciative of the Power To Believe with it's somewhat warmer humanity (to my ears, anyway) - but absolutely floored by the power and stark futuristic chill of the ConstrucKtion. I was trying to find an analogy to explain the pair when I remembered the David Cronenberg film Dead Ringers with Jeremy Irons playing both roles. In my mind, TCOL is the more confident brother (surgical tubing) whereas TPTB is the one who is getting set up on dates.I can respond to this by saying yes if you're deaf. Very different albums, both are great but only superficially similar. And I don't mean that you are deaf, if that came off too harsh. I was actually thinking of my brother! I don't have the power to believe that he's really my brother. :roll

[Nijinsky Hind]

I love both albums, but where they really knock it out of the park is Heavy ConstruKction, the live document of the tCoL European tour. Songs that sound cold and distant on the studio album leap out of the speakers and grab you by the throat.
Yeah... heavy C is the one to hear. Excellent production and powerful confidence.

[Zeuhlmate]

ConstruKction never did anything for me, and made me avoid PtB, allthough I know its better. Dunno whats wrong, dont like the sound... have all KC's previous studio albums.
I attended the concerts both in 2000 and 2003, so maybe I should make some research on 'Heavy ConstruKction'

[Nijinsky Hind]

I like lyrics but I don't like them too literal... Oyster soup and prozac blues compared to the brilliant starless or islands lyrics...

The right lyrics are hard to come by, but necessary for me to feel a sense of place on an album.... at least have lyrics on a third of an album IMO. But thats just me.

[Sputnik]

I love both these albums. Much as I love the Wetton era, these two albums might represent my favorite incarnation of KC.

I can totally understand the criticisms of CoL, but of the two this is my favorite, thin sound and all. I'm not totally sure why. Something about this group of songs just caught me. For me the album just goes from strength to strength. I particularly love the title track, which was the first time I ever connected with any Belew lyrics, and it opened a door to me to some (though not all ) of his other stuff. I also thought this one really captured the full potential of the interlocking/Gamelan guitar thing.

I also love TPtB, Level 5 in particular. Definitely a better sounding album. I feel this one trails off a bit at the very end and doesn't close on as strong a note as it opens, but I really like it and feel it closed this era of the band on a high note.

So, two winners for me. Similar in some ways, but different in others. I actually like that there was some continuity of sound and approach between them, but that there was a sense of movement as well.

Bill

[JKL2000]

In revisiting the two post-Bruford KC albums, BOTH of which I like quite a bit, I am appreciative of the Power To Believe with it's somewhat warmer humanity (to my ears, anyway) - but absolutely floored by the power and stark futuristic chill of the ConstrucKtion. I was trying to find an analogy to explain the pair when I remembered the David Cronenberg film Dead Ringers with Jeremy Irons playing both roles. In my mind, TCOL is the more confident brother (surgical tubing) whereas TPTB is the one who is getting set up on dates.

Greg, another thing we have in common - I'm a HUGE Cronenberg fan!

I agree with most here that TPTB is the warmer, cozier Crim album if there's such a thing, but I do enjoy MOST of TCOL too. Belew needs to shut up for me to enjoy it - mostly. But even Belew I'm more accepting of as of late. I can let him have his chance to wail.

[Spiral]

ConstruKction never did anything for me, and made me avoid PtB, allthough I know its better. Dunno whats wrong, dont like the sound... maybe I should make some research on 'Heavy ConstruKction'
Well, Heavy ConstruKction isn't terribly far away from TCoL sound- and engineering-wise. TPtB is very different from both in that regard.

[battema]

Love both albums quite a bit, even if the production on TCoL isn't their strongest moment. I went and saw one of their 2000 warmup gigs at 12th and Porter right before TCoL came out. Tiny little space, and those songs sounded positively monstrous.

Greg/Mozo - the studio version of Coda is killer, with (and here comes some major geekery) the unresolved bass on the last tone. Live, Gunn switched the ending to have a different note (C instead of E) which never quite felt as gutting to me. But that ending on the album was just perfectly bleak as hell.

There is a version of Larks' IV on the Happy EP that IMHO shows the potential of the material with a different production approach.

I personally think PtB would have been just about perfect if they hadn't cut out Gunn's gorgeous solo at the end of Deception/PtB III.

My one (very minor) lament is that nothing on either TCoL or PtB quite matched the epic strength of 'Seizure' from The Roar of P4 show. Of all the output from the ProjeKcts, that tune just blew my mind.

[NogbadTheBad]

I always wanted to hear epic studio versions of Seizure & Deception Of The Thrush

[Haruspex Carnage]

Love both albums quite a bit, even if the production on TCoL isn't their strongest moment. I went and saw one of their 2000 warmup gigs at 12th and Porter right before TCoL came out. Tiny little space, and those songs sounded positively monstrous.

Greg/Mozo - the studio version of Coda is killer, with (and here comes some major geekery) the unresolved bass on the last tone. Live, Gunn switched the ending to have a different note (C instead of E) which never quite felt as gutting to me. But that ending on the album was just perfectly bleak as hell.

There is a version of Larks' IV on the Happy EP that IMHO shows the potential of the material with a different production approach.

I personally think PtB would have been just about perfect if they hadn't cut out Gunn's gorgeous solo at the end of Deception/PtB III.

My one (very minor) lament is that nothing on either TCoL or PtB quite matched the epic strength of 'Seizure' from The Roar of P4 show. Of all the output from the ProjeKcts, that tune just blew my mind.

Personally the ProjeKcts i thought were really underutilized...what did we get from them really but TCOL, Into The Frying Pan, DotT, and maybe Level 5? That's off the top of my head...pieces like Sustaynz, X-Chang-jiz, Hindu Fizz, Ghost, Seizure, Masque 3, Super Slow, and lots of TL riffs from P1 all could have morphed into KC songs.

[battema]

I always wanted to hear epic studio versions of Seizure & Deception Of The Thrush

^^ BINGO!

That said...the live rendition of Deception of the Thrush from the Eyes Wide Open DVD might well be the finest version they've ever released, IMHO.

I know the 2000's band tried Seizure in various forms as improvs during that tour, but nothing quite matched that dual bass assault that ProjeKct Four had going on. It was like the soundtrack to some wonderful dystopian city chase or the like...

[battema]

Personally the ProjeKcts i thought were really underutilized...what did we get from them really but TCOL, Into The Frying Pan, DotT, and maybe Level 5? That's off the top of my head...pieces like Sustaynz, X-Chang-jiz, Hindu Fizz, Ghost, Seizure, Masque 3, Super Slow, and lots of TL riffs from P1 all could have morphed into KC songs.

Maybe Belew? His work with the ProjeKcts was mostly spent on the V-Drums, and the most out-there of the ProjeKcts for me were the ones where he wasn't present. Perhaps once KC proper got rolling, the emphasis moved away from those massive electronica-meets-metal soundscapes.

[NogbadTheBad]

^^ BINGO!

That said...the live rendition of Deception of the Thrush from the Eyes Wide Open DVD might well be the finest version they've ever released, IMHO.

I know the 2000's band tried Seizure in various forms as improvs during that tour, but nothing quite matched that dual bass assault that ProjeKct Four had going on. It was like the soundtrack to some wonderful dystopian city chase or the like...

I have a version of that from Vancouver, outstanding.

[Haruspex Carnage]

Maybe Belew? His work with the ProjeKcts was mostly spent on the V-Drums, and the most out-there of the ProjeKcts for me were the ones where he wasn't present. Perhaps once KC proper got rolling, the emphasis moved away from those massive electronica-meets-metal soundscapes.

Belew what, blew the chances of these songs making it in? Which brings me to i never really liked him in an improvisational context too much. Gunn, Mastelotto, Bruford, and Levin are fantastic though. Fripp has his moments but he was doing the Frying Pan chords or coming in with these root to minor to tritone approaches way too much.

[Spiral]

Personally the ProjeKcts i thought were really underutilized...what did we get from them really but TCOL, Into The Frying Pan, DotT, and maybe Level 5?
I for one got a massive library of great listening material out of it. Those shows (from all the groups) are among the most-played things in my library by anyone. They're great in and of themselves. In addition to what you mentioned, they also gave us "Heaven and Earth" and the basis for some killer live improvs.

I'm not sure I'd want to hear epic studio renditions of those tunes, just because it's hard to imagine anything equaling the way they sounded live. IIRC that's why "Seizure" never made it onto an album to begin with, and I always thought the treatment of "Thrush" suffered immensely from losing the in-the-moment feel and Trey's solo. (Tho' I can see how it functioned as a culmination moment, bringing things back to the Double Duo's early days and reaching further back to a 1997 Soundscape.)

[arabicadabra]

Every time I visit these two albums, I come back to the brilliance of the writing on TCOL - it just blows away the songs on TPTB in my opinion - especially the title track, Into The Frying Pan (outro Belew solo being my favorite thing he's ever done) and the ninja bludgeonry of Larks IV/I Have A Dream. Whereas TPTB has Happy and that's my favorite song on the whole thing. YMMV. PS - the hell with the production :)

[notallwhowander]

I think you are right about the writing, I just think the actual songs shine more on other releases. Plus P@'s drum sounds fatigue my ears, so I can't enjoy the whole thing in one go.

[GuitarGeek]

Yes, certainly is... but CoL is maybe their weakest studio album with Perfect Pair (and yes, the production on that album is a bit... unpleasant)

I happen to think Three Of A Perfect Pair was one of their best albums.

[Dave (in MA)]

I happen to think Three Of A Perfect Pair was one of their best albums.

Once you get past track 4 it's pretty good.

[GuitarGeek]

Once you get past track 4 it's pretty good.

What's wrong with the first four tracks?!

[Zeuhlmate]

I happen to think Three Of A Perfect Pair was one of their best albums.

Fabulous 'guitar'solo on the title track.

[arabicadabra]

One of the high points in Belew's career for me, too.


Fabulous 'guitar'solo on the title track.

[Sean]

Would you agree this era produced the most complex music of any Crim lineup?

Nice to see this on YT!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-qfW1UL-vQ

Wasn't it some sort of bonus thing you needed a password to view before?

[Mister Triscuits]

Wasn't it some sort of bonus thing you needed a password to view before?

The video content on Heavy ConstruKction was from Rome, which was also the password, IIRC.

[Reid]

Well, Heavy ConstruKction isn't terribly far away from TCoL sound- and engineering-wise.

The live set with those electronic drums sounds like crap. I'm glad I only paid around 7 dollars for a used copy 6 years ago. The Elektric live album sounds great!

Some great video there, Sean. Thanks!

[Dave (in MA)]

What's wrong with the first four tracks?!

Nothing, but the good stuff starts at the end of the side.

[happytheman]

I've got both.. for me Power to Believe suits my ears better.. I've never heard Heavy Construktion

[battema]

Would you agree this era produced the most complex music of any Crim lineup?

The most complex? I don't think I'd go that far. Some of the tunes were definitely up there among their more challenging though.

[Scrotum Scissor]

The most complex? [...] Some of the tunes were definitely up there among their more challenging though.

If by "complexity" is implied a level of formal intricacy and challenge in texture and structure of composition, then I'm inclined to agree with Sean. Parts of The Power to Believe certainly levitate onto something almost Present-like in density.

My primary objection towards both albums (other than the production) would be the overall incoherence at play. There's some outstanding stuff, but also passages of sheer throwaway valeur.

[battema]

If by "complexity" is implied a level of formal intricacy and challenge in texture and structure of composition, then I'm inclined to agree with Sean. Parts of The Power to Believe certainly levitate onto something almost Present-like in density.

My primary objection towards both albums (other than the production) would be the overall incoherence at play. There's some outstanding stuff, but also passages of sheer throwaway valeur.

Hmmmm...fair point. I was thinking back to some of the prior works from the 70's and even 80's...some of those parts struck me as at least as complex.

[Sturgeon's Lawyer]

I'm getting the impression that video versions of all of Heavy ConstruKction are or will soon be available on YouTube. Huzzah!

[jkelman]

The produKction of ConstruKction suKcs.
My feeling was that the album should have been made after they'd road-tested the material..and not had Pat solely on electronic drums. There's good material in there (at least some of it) - as Heavy ConstruKtion would soon demonstrate, but my feeling with the studio album is that it just wasn't quite cooked yet.

That some of the material continued on after TPtB was released, as part of their live sets - but with Pat playing more acoustic kit - only serves to demonstrate that it wasn't a matter of weak material..it was just a matter of having the opportunity to play it live and figure out what worked and what didn't.

And that TCoL's title track (first part) is still a part of the new 7-piece Crimson setlist only speaks to how great a track it is, at least IMO (and that Fripp considers it so, more to the point); and I think it's even better with the addition of Collins' flute & sax.

[JKL2000]

I will admit to not having given The ProjeKCts Box adequate listens. Since the company I now work for closes between Xmas and New Years, I feel like I should devote as much time as possible then to listening to that stuff. Also have to fit in a lot of Marillion, as is my way, but I will try to do this.

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

I have never clicked with any of the material from the 90s and onward. To me the last great KC album was Discipline. Since then I feel Fripp has been repeating and recycling himself in ways that seem strange for someone who once reinvented rock. KC have made what I consider to be two of the best albums in rock history, ITCOTCK and Red, and it puzzles me that he now continues with such a one-dimensional recreation of the band. The current KC is, in my ears, a pretty senseless juggernaut, all about velocity, complexity, impact and impressiveness. The subtle, sensitive sides of the band have completely vanished, and what made King Crimson great IMO was the CONTRAST - that Schizoid Man could coexist with Moonchild on the same album, that Starless went from divinive melody to infernal dissonance. Those things. I don't hear that in KC anymore at all, all I hear is Fripp desperately trying to sound current and impressive.

But I know that's a minority view, and I respect and admire those who have the patience to find something worthwhile in current KC ;)

[Digital_Man]

I had both at one point or another a long time ago. The ConstruKtion of Light was ok. There were certain things about it I didn't care for too much but it wasn't a bad album and there were some great moments. TPtB on there other hand was a bit different. The opening track sounded like typical KC and made me think if the rest of the album was like this then it was going to be tCoL part two. However, I was wrong. It went in a different direction and showed them capable of creating sounds they hadn't done before. It is a very solid album over all from what I remember. I need to pick these up again at some point.

[notallwhowander]

I have never clicked with any of the material from the 90s and onward. To me the last great KC album was Discipline. Since then I feel Fripp has been repeating and recycling himself in ways that seem strange for someone who once reinvented rock. KC have made what I consider to be two of the best albums in rock history, ITCOTCK and Red, and it puzzles me that he now continues with such a one-dimensional recreation of the band. The current KC is, in my ears, a pretty senseless juggernaut, all about velocity, complexity, impact and impressiveness. The subtle, sensitive sides of the band have completely vanished, and what made King Crimson great IMO was the CONTRAST - that Schizoid Man could coexist with Moonchild on the same album, that Starless went from divinive melody to infernal dissonance. Those things. I don't hear that in KC anymore at all, all I hear is Fripp desperately trying to sound current and impressive.

But I know that's a minority view, and I respect and admire those who have the patience to find something worthwhile in current KC ;)

Really? I hear a contrast between the subtle and ethereal and full-tilt nail-driving crunch, between the various installments of "The Power to Believe" and "Level 5," the rippling waters of "The ConstruKction of Light" and the relentless assault of "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, part IV." So, the contrast is there, and it's pretty obvious, to me anyway.

"...a pretty senseless juggernaut, all about velocity, complexity, impact and impressiveness."
That's a great description of "21st Century Schizoid Man," "Fracture," or "Red." Wonderful tracks all. :up

[notallwhowander]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ntjx77WQhA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOiaS1FBMM4

Same album.

[Sean]

I think that balance of light and shade was found on The Power to Believe (Eyes Wide Open is a beautiul ballad, maybe my fave of the Belew era ones).

That said, when I reach for KC these days it's usually Thrak or something older.

[Mister Triscuits]

The current KC is, in my ears, a pretty senseless juggernaut, all about velocity, complexity, impact and impressiveness.

The closest thing to a full album-length statement by the current band that we have to date is A Scarcity of Miracles, which was widely criticized for being too soft. (No, it's not officially a King Crimson album, but it is one de facto, as is confirmed by the presence of several of its songs in the current band's live repertoire.)

[mogrooves]

My interest in post-Red KC is mostly tepid, but I thought The Power To Believe was a real return to form, a kind of summa of what this band was all about over its career.

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

The closest thing to a full album-length statement by the current band that we have to date is A Scarcity of Miracles, which was widely criticized for being too soft. (No, it's not officially a King Crimson album, but it is one de facto, as is confirmed by the presence of several of its songs in the current band's live repertoire.)

This I agree with. That album had that subtlety and thoughtfulness that makes KC KC in my book. Great album, and it really should have born the KC logo.

The contrasts are there in those other albums, I agree - but it's of a different kind. The tonalities and textures are samey all through their 90s and beyond albums. They can be quiet and melodic, I agree, and Eyes Wide Open is a great tune. But it's no Starless. It's a pleasant song with the same basic textures as the rest of the album. Electric guitar, bass and drums in interlocking patterns. Heard it 1 million times before since Discipline.

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

I guess as with latter-day Yes, I just expect more from them - and even more, of course, from a self-proclaimed trailblazer like Fripp.

[Spiral]

it puzzles me that [RF] now continues with such a one-dimensional recreation of the band. The current KC is, in my ears, a pretty senseless juggernaut, all about velocity, complexity, impact and impressiveness. The subtle, sensitive sides of the band have completely vanished
Have you ever actually heard the current band?

Ok, that may have come out condescending which I don't mean to be, but I don't understand how anyone can get that impression from KC8 to begin with. It's got the widest sonic palette of any Crimson ever, and its set is full of light moments blended/contrasted with the heavy. "Starless." TCoL. LTiA1. "The Letters." The newly written interludes are more quiet than loud. Even if the Orpheum CD is the only thing a listener has to go on, I think it makes that range pretty clear.

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

Have you ever actually heard the current band?

Ok, that may have come out condescending which I don't mean to be, but I don't understand how anyone can get that impression from KC8 to begin with. It's got the widest sonic palette of any Crimson ever, and its set is full of light moments blended/contrasted with the heavy. "Starless." TCoL. LTiA1. "The Letters." The newly written interludes are more quiet than loud. Even if the Orpheum CD is the only thing a listener has to go on, I think it makes that range pretty clear.


That may be. I am only basing this on the studio albums of new material.

[Spiral]

I am only basing this on the studio albums of new material.
Well, then I can see that a bit more. TCoL was definitely lopsided tone-wise, though I'd definitely argue TPtB rectified the balance in a great way and Thrak showed a good range too.

No, Scarcity doesn't enter the picture. It's not Crimson and isn't representative of the band, personnel overlap or not.

[Dave (in MA)]

That may be. I am only basing this on the studio albums of new material.
Then you're talking in the present tense about an album that's a dozen years old.

[Dave (in MA)]

No, Scarcity doesn't enter the picture. It's not Crimson and isn't representative of the band, personnel overlap or not.

It's as "representative of the band" as Lizard was.

[NogbadTheBad]

Not to Fripp s mind otherwise it would have KC on the cover

from Ians phone

[jamesmanzi]

Not to Fripp s mind otherwise it would have KC on the cover

from Ians phone

It does.

6383

But I guess if you want to be pedantic about it, none of the ProjeKcts are King Crimson.

[Dave (in MA)]

More pedantry: Scarcity says "King Crimson" on the front cover, but the Projekcts albums do not. (Though the box that houses them does.)

[Spiral]

It's as "representative of the band" as Lizard was.
Interesting thought. To be nitpicky I think I still disagree. Lizard was a product of the band (well, its dwindling core) writing what they felt the next defining Crimson statement should be at the time. It represented the state of things at the time, even if it was the early figuring-things-out phase and the result was nothing like what KC eventually became. Scarcity was an accident. There was no band, and nobody set out to write or record anything representative of anything.

The actual ProjeKcts (1-6) weren't technically Crimson, but they were intended as steps toward a future phase of the band. The music had the KC gene, enough so that it felt right for KC to play some of those pieces live and/or incorporate the ideas into a proper Crimson album when TCoL was made. All subjective of course, but to me at least, none of those things are true of JFC and Scarcity.

[NogbadTheBad]

It does.

6383

But I guess if you want to be pedantic about it, none of the ProjeKcts are King Crimson.


More pedantry: Scarcity says "King Crimson" on the front cover, but the Projekcts albums do not. (Though the box that houses them does.)

None of the ProjeKct's are King Crimson, that's why they are ProjeKcts. I thought someone would mention that, it specifically says "A King Crimson ProjeKct" i.e. not King Crimson.


From DGMLive - Robert Fripp, Adrian Belew, Trey Gunn: a King Crimson projeKct. King Crimson has begun a series of projeKcts by fractals of its six members. The aim of these smaller Crimson projeKcts, or sub-groups, is to function as Research & Development units on behalf of, and for, the Greater Crim.

So yes Projekcts have been called King Crimson Projekcts before, and they are defined as sub-groups doing research & development for the full Crimson.

[jamesmanzi]

You mentioned Deception of the Thrush upthread. Do you consider that a cover song, since the band(s) that wrote it were not King Crimson? Are the Scarcity tracks covers when played by the current lineup?

Not trolling, just looking for a greater understanding of the reasoning behind some music from a collective of musicians being one thing while other music by that same collective being something else.

[Mister Triscuits]

Note that I said "de facto"; all you guys are arguing de jure. Which I totally expected; as there is a such a strong tendency to take what's printed on an album cover as gospel despite the fact that it's so often incomplete, ambiguous, or downright fictional. Would you really insist that the band that recorded the ProjeKct X album was not King Crimson?

[NogbadTheBad]

Note that I said "de facto"; all you guys are arguing de jure. Which I totally expected; as there is a such a strong tendency to take what's printed on an album cover as gospel despite the fact that it's so often incomplete, ambiguous, or downright fictional. Would you really insist that the band that recorded the ProjeKct X album was not King Crimson?

When Fripp renames Projekct X to King Crimson I'll move it from the P shelf to the K shelf. As long as he defines it as a Projekct I'll leave it on P. He's the only arbiter of what is & isn't Crimson to me.

[jamesmanzi]

Would you really insist that the band that recorded the ProjeKct X album was not King Crimson?

I wouldn't, but I'm getting the impression some would.

Edited to add: someone did while I was typing the above line.

[NogbadTheBad]

You mentioned Deception of the Thrush upthread. Do you consider that a cover song, since the band(s) that wrote it were not King Crimson? Are the Scarcity tracks covers when played by the current lineup?

Not trolling, just looking for a greater understanding of the reasoning behind some music from a collective of musicians being one thing while other music by that same collective being something else.

That's a good question, I had to have a think about it & I think this is how my personal logic works. Projekcts are R&D sub groups for Crimson, they are testing exploring and adapting material in a live improv setting to see what works and what doesn't. Once it gets to Crimson it has become a Crimson track as it is being performed by Crimson and was written by Crimson members. I have Crimson live albums with Deception Of The Thrush on them. I'm not thinking KC are doing a cover version of a Projekcts track. This is clearly a personal approach to me.

[jamesmanzi]

I can accept that. :)

I will continue to roll my eyes though, when I see people tag Scarcity and Light of Day as "(Jakszyk, Fripp and Collins cover)" on setlist websites.

[Dave (in MA)]

I've long wondered if the whole Projekts as R&D for the full band thing was partly typical Frippian BS and it had as much to do with logistics and continuing to work with Crim members while some of them were unavailable.

[Mister Triscuits]

I've long wondered if the whole Projekts as R&D for the full band thing was partly typical Frippian BS and it had as much to do with logistics and continuing to work with Crim members while some of them were unavailable.

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN.

[Digital_Man]

My interest in post-Red KC is mostly tepid, but I thought The Power To Believe was a real return to form, a kind of summa of what this band was all about over its career.

What do you think of Discipline? :)

[notallwhowander]

I've long wondered if the whole Projekts as R&D for the full band thing was partly typical Frippian BS and it had as much to do with logistics and continuing to work with Crim members while some of them were unavailable.Six of one and a half-dozen of the other.

[mogrooves]

What do you think of Discipline?

The best of those three LPs, but as a group they constitute a collective outlier; essentially not KC, imo. Some nice songs on it, particularly "Matte Kudasai" (sp?), but not really for me.

[Scrotum Scissor]

essentially not KC, imo. Some nice songs on it, particularly "Matte Kudasai" (sp?), but not really for me.

My sentiment exactly. I could never really fire up to anything which limits itself to being "nice". To my ears, the sometimes great ideas on Discipline are either underdeveloped or completely overkilled, and this essentially leaves me with "The Sheltering Sky".

[arabicadabra]

I applaud your very different take on that from my own. To me, Indiscipline is heavier and more sinister than any metal I've ever heard. And I thought it was about a severed head until I learned otherwise.



My sentiment exactly. I could never really fire up to anything which limits itself to being "nice". To my ears, the sometimes great ideas on Discipline are either underdeveloped or completely overkilled, and this essentially leaves me with "The Sheltering Sky".

[Spiral]

I could never really fire up to anything which limits itself to being "nice".
I wouldn't call it limiting, only following what's right for the music/idea in question.

[Jacob Holm-Lupo]

My sentiment exactly. I could never really fire up to anything which limits itself to being "nice". To my ears, the sometimes great ideas on Discipline are either underdeveloped or completely overkilled, and this essentially leaves me with "The Sheltering Sky".

The Sheltering Sky is definitely the highlight, and in my book the last truly great KC track. Discipline was the first KC album I ever bought, so I have a positive relationship with it. I agree it's patchy in places, but it has much to recommend it. The Levin/Bruford interplay, for one thing. And most importantly, Discipline is the last KC album where Fripp's guitar playing really connects with me and moves me. His tone, his choice of notes - that's the last time I can hear the giant, the genius at work in KC.

The part that irks me with this and the next two albums of the era is Belew. I don't hate him, and guitar-wise he complements Fripp well. But I don't care all that much for his vocal delivery, and his melodies get samey after a while. And of course I feel the same way about his subsequent involvement in the band.

After Discipline I felt the writing was really on the wall. For that album, the gamelan rock band approach was fresh and invigorating. That he chose to continue the exact same concept for two more, obviously lackluster albums, showed me that Fripp had lost some of his touch and was indeed as fallible as any mere mortal.

[polmico]

Man, I don't usually get in pissing wars over opinions, but any lackluster album that has "Waiting Man" on it is an album I'll take.

But it's ok. I mean, this isn't a Yes thread. No reason for hurt feelings.

[at least 100 dead]

any lackluster album that has "Waiting Man" on it is an album I'll take.


+1